Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Downlinz

bennyl10 wrote: »

The Zebo ship has sailed, but this arguement is nonsensical.

Zebo was in Ireland at this stage last year, and as he was moving he wasn’t up for selection.

It screams of double standards that SOB is being selected now.

It may well be double standards but the fact that this is a world cup year which SOB is available for is a valid counter argument. Although technically and indeed laughably Schmidt did claim last season that Simon wasn't selected due to form and performances rather than anything to do with his move.
The IRFU could definitely do with clarifying what the actual policy is in this sort of situation regardless.

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ireland Team & Replacements (v Italy, 2019 Guinness Six Nations Championship, Stadio Olimpico, Rome KO 4pm local/3pm Irish)

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 88 caps
14. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 74 caps
13. Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 4 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 14 caps
11. Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 16 caps
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 80 caps (vc)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 69 caps
1. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 26 caps
2. Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 67 caps
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 30 caps
4. Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht) 12 caps
5. Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht) 10 caps
6. Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 54 caps (c)
7. Sean O’Brien (UCD/Leinster) 54 caps
8. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Ulster) 26 caps

Replacements
16. Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 11 caps
17. Jack McGrath (St Marys College/Leinster) 53 caps
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 16 caps
19. Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 42 caps
20. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 15 caps
21. John Cooney (Terenure College/Ulster) 6 caps
22. Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
23. Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 10 caps

Fair play to Stockdale. I know its only ceremonial but great to see Jacob affiliating himself to a junior club. Only player to do so. Would be great to see more players do that. Like Furlong should affiliate himself back with New Ross. Its not like he'll be playing club rugby any time soon any way.

Deleted User wrote: »

Only getting to see the team now. That to me looks like Joe is happy enough with his pack, wants the backs to gel a bit and get some continuity.

Some surprises there. Conan, Larmour and Porter will be disappointed.

Should Conan be disappointed. Really dont see what he offers compared to other options.

joseywhales

Italy are bad but they can still take a scalp at home if for example our set piece falls apart. They still have a handful of talented players. I actually think they are better without parisse, he has lost his athletic talents and still takes on teams on his own, it's almost a liability. I think too much attention is on our half backs and not enough on the loss of form of our front five, who for me were the standouts in last year's grand slam. Furlong is our key man and he is still dominant but we need to get his edge back for the world cup.

thebaz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

P

What exactly has the World Cup got to do with the 6 nations?

if you don't see what the importance of the WC has this year fair eneogh , no point discussing.

Jewelers

thebaz wrote: »

if you don't see what the importance of the WC has this year fair eneogh , no point discussing.

can do dopey rotations in the wc warm up matches

Shefwedfan

thebaz wrote: »

if you don't see what the importance of the WC has this year fair eneogh , no point discussing.

Your “team” was just sticking in players for the sake of it....half of them not playing in correct positions or with proper job.....looked like the team that lost to Italy all those years ago, was waiting for you to stick Pom on the wing.....we have seen enough rotation in 3 years, 6 months out from a WC people are still talking about sticking in players “just to get them a cap”

Jump_In_Jack

Zzippy wrote: »

Beirne hasn't yet had a club game since coming back from injury. Dillane was MOTM last weekend for Connacht. Dillane is ahead this week. That's all we know.

Beirne MOTM last night. Looks to be back on track after his latest injury.

ionadnapokot

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Beirne MOTM last night. Looks to be back on track after his latest injury.

Yes he was excellent. As always.
I can see the rationale in sticking with Roux & giving Dillane a start against a disappointingly poor Italy pack.

I would hope Beirne does not miss out on the 23 for France.

stephen_n

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Yes he was excellent. As always.
I can see the rationale in sticking with Roux & giving Dillane a start against a disappointingly poor Italy pack.

I would hope Beirne does not miss out on the 23 for France.

Not being able to call the lineout will stand against him there. If Henderson starts Roux will probably bench or vise versa assuming Ryan is available.

Faugheen

stephen_n wrote: »

Not being able to call the lineout will stand against him there. If Henderson starts Roux will probably bench or vise versa assuming Ryan is available.

We’ve seen scenarios before where a non-caller has been on the bench like last week.

I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that Beirne could bench next week, but there seems to be (anecdotally) an overall reluctance from Schmidt to involve Beirne, and I think it’s because he doesn’t do enough of the bread and butter you’d expect from a lock. Hes generally a bit quiet around the breakdown for my liking.

I could be wrong here and I don’t mind being wrong. I’m simply guessing from everything I can see so far.

Buer

The only aspect I can really see that Beirne is lacking in comparison to the other options at top levels is his work in the air. He's excellent around the breakdown, carries very well and, whilst he isn't a stand out player in defence, he's generally quite solid there.

But he is not someone who particularly dominates or controls things in the air whether it's at restarts or lineout. If we look at the other locks who are involved at the moment, they're all very well versed in the line out whether they run their provincial line outs like Henderson, Roux or Toner or are extremely athletic jumpers with good hands like Dillane and Ryan. I've seen people online wondering how Beirne isn't in Rome this weekend. To those people, I'd ask them if they saw Ultan Dillane last weekend when he too was MOTM, stealing set piece ball, winning his own throws in difficult conditions and doing a very good job around the park too.

I think Beirne will certainly go to the RWC. He offers such a talent around the park for big moments that can change the momentum of the game and you can't buy that. I'm not sure there's another player in Ireland who hunts those breakdown moments to the same extent with the possible exception of Leavy and, when deployed in the role, POM is capable of doing it currently too. But I'm sure he has some work ons for his game at the moment.

I'd expect him to be back in the Irish 23 before the end of the tournament but, all fit, I don't think he makes the 23 at the moment. We've seen the importance of the set piece to Ireland and I think Schmidt will always have a soft spot for those guys who are more established in that area.

stephen_n

Which is exactly why he’s always liked Roux.

Jump_In_Jack

Beirne stole a last minute lineout last night, and it was mentioned by Donncha O’Callaghan who awarded him the MOTM that it was mostly due to his dominance in the lineout.

Buer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Beirne stole a last minute lineout last night, and it was mentioned by Donncha O’Callaghan who awarded him the MOTM that it was mostly due to his dominance in the lineout.

Fair enough but that doesn't really change my point i.e. he doesn't have a huge amount of influence there at the top level. I would consider Billy Holland a comfortably better line out operator to Beirne, for example.

And I think you'd have gotten short odds on DOC giving Beirne MOTM before kick off regardless of the fact that he had a fine game!

ionadnapokot

stephen_n wrote: »

Not being able to call the lineout will stand against him there. If Henderson starts Roux will probably bench or vise versa assuming Ryan is available.

I believe he does call some line out for Munster. V Exeter I think
And did so for Scarlets on occasion

Faugheen

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I believe he does call some line out for Munster. V Exeter I think
And did so for Scarlets on occasion

He doesn't for Ireland though. Big difference. In the Autumn, he played with Roux and Henderson - two line out callers.

He can call as many line outs for Munster as he pleases but until he starts calling them for Ireland then he's battling with Ryan and Dillane for one place. To be honest if Ryan was to get injured then he could easily find himself battling with Henderson too. There's plenty of scope for Toner and Henderson starting a game if it was to come to it.

Perifect

Faugheen wrote: »

He doesn't for Ireland though. Big difference. In the Autumn, he played with Roux and Henderson - two line out callers.

He can call as many line outs for Munster as he pleases but until he starts calling them for Ireland then he's battling with Ryan and Dillane for one place. To be honest if Ryan was to get injured then he could easily find himself battling with Henderson too. There's plenty of scope for Toner and Henderson starting a game if it was to come to it.

So he can't get selected for Ireland until he starts calling line outs for Ireland.

stephen_n

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I believe he does call some line out for Munster. V Exeter I think
And did so for Scarlets on occasion

As has James Ryan for Leinster on a few occasions. As was pointed out Dillane couldn’t call it when he was on the bench against Scotland. I just wouldn’t be surprised to see Roux get the bench spot because he can do it. Assuming Henderson is fit to start.

thebaz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your “team” was just sticking in players for the sake of it....half of them not playing in correct positions or with proper job.....looked like the team that lost to Italy all those years ago, was waiting for you to stick Pom on the wing.....we have seen enough rotation in 3 years, 6 months out from a WC people are still talking about sticking in players “just to get them a cap”

you do talk nonsense , if you think beating Italy is a great achievement in this WC year , fair eneogh , Italy have not been a force since the 90s , I think this Irish team think bigger and should be looking at the bigger picture of a good WC campaign , now we can no longer win the Grand slam. Nothing to do with getting caps just building a squad for the bigger days.

ionadnapokot

stephen_n wrote: »

As has James Ryan for Leinster on a few occasions. As was pointed out Dillane couldn’t call it when he was on the bench against Scotland. I just wouldn’t be surprised to see Roux get the bench spot because he can do it. Assuming Henderson is fit to start.

I fear that is the logic particularly after we saw Beirne last night.
If Roux is their primarily to run the lineout v a dreadful Italy then that’s a bad selection.

Former Former

If these professional rugby players can't learn to call a lineout between now and September then I'd worry for them. It shouldn't be an issue.

Faugheen

Perifect wrote: »

So he can't get selected for Ireland until he starts calling line outs for Ireland.

You really have a serious problem comprehending what people are saying, or you know what people are saying and decide to make up your own nonsense to try and start a narrative.

Other people are trying to discuss the topic, you only have an interest in being smart and sarcastic to start a row.

Faugheen

Former Former wrote: »

If these professional rugby players can't learn to call a lineout between now and September then I'd worry for them. It shouldn't be an issue.

You must think calling a lineout is easy if that's your attitude towards it.

stephen_n

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I fear that is the logic particularly after we saw Beirne last night.
If Roux is their primarily to run the lineout v a dreadful Italy then that’s a bad selection.

I think Roux has more than earned his place in the last two games. He has demonstrated far more at international level so far than Beirne has had the chance to. If anything Beirne lost out to Dillane this week, not Roux. The French game however will be a different story.

Former Former wrote: »

If these professional rugby players can't learn to call a lineout between now and September then I'd worry for them. It shouldn't be an issue.

Calling it is easy, being good at it is clearly not.

Former Former

Faugheen wrote: »

You must think calling a lineout is easy if that's your attitude towards it.

Ooooohhh, touchy. I have no idea why mind you but there it is.

If Roux, Henderson and Toner can manage it, then I'm sure Ryan, Dillane and Beirne can at least pick up the basics to a point where it doesn't exclude them from selection.

Faugheen

Former Former wrote: »

Ooooohhh, touchy. I have no idea why mind you but there it is.

If Roux, Henderson and Toner can manage it, then I'm sure Ryan, Dillane and Beirne can at least pick up the basics to a point where it doesn't exclude them from selection.

There's a lot to being a good line-out caller. You need to be able to read what the opposition are doing and how they're set up, how they have been combating your line out so far, do you go off the top or for the maul? Or even a trick play that you can only really get away with once a game? How is the defence set up for each scenario?

Even in defence, trying to read what they're going to do. Do you get up and compete or prepare for a maul?

It's not something anyone can just pick up. The line out can be a vital part of the game and if you have someone who knows the calls but not knowing best how to utilise them then it makes a big difference to someone who does.

To say it shouldn't be an issue for a pro player is very, very harsh.

Stone Gossard

Faugheen wrote: »

There's a lot to being a good line-out caller. You need to be able to read what the opposition are doing and how they're set up, how they have been combating your line out so far, do you go off the top or for the maul? Or even a trick play that you can only really get away with once a game? How is the defence set up for each scenario?

Even in defence, trying to read what they're going to do. Do you get up and compete or prepare for a maul?

It's not something anyone can just pick up. The line out can be a vital part of the game and if you have someone who knows the calls but not knowing best how to utilise them then it makes a big difference to someone who does.

To say it shouldn't be an issue for a pro player is very, very harsh.

To say it's an issue that keeps a player out of the 23 is very, very daft

Faugheen

Stone Gossard wrote: »

To say it's an issue that keeps a player out of the 23 is very, very daft

That's depending on coaches really. Schmidt seems to be happy enough on occasion to have a non-caller on the bench ala Dillane last week. Just some shouldn't be surprised if he goes for the likes of Roux over Dillane/Beirne depending on the circumstances.

If Beirne was to be on the bench when everyone was fit and available, it would say to me that Schmidt would be happy with either him or Ryan or even POM calling the line out if something happened to Toner or Henderson (dependent on who's starting). I don't think many would see an issue with it either.

I personally would rather another caller on the bench but that's me being ultra safe, and I'm clearly not Joe Schmidt.

thebaz

Stone Gossard wrote: »

To say it's an issue that keeps a player out of the 23 is very, very daft

fully agree, these are international professional rugby players , they will have the likes of Best and POM in tandem , no doubt Dillane and Beirne could pick up the duties , besides we will usually have Toner as well.

irishbucsfan

Stone Gossard wrote: »

To say it's an issue that keeps a player out of the 23 is very, very daft

There you go now. Calling a lineout, easy and unimportant? Huge if true

Faugheen

thebaz wrote: »

fully agree, these are international professional rugby players , they will have the likes of Best and POM in tandem , no doubt Dillane and Beirne could pick up the duties , besides we will usually have Toner as well.

If Toner is available then there is no issue, as he's one of the best in the business at managing the lineout.

The problem from Beirne's point of view then is that he's competing within Ryan, who's probably one of the best second rows in the business.

As was pointed out, there's a difference between knowing the calls and knowing when to make the calls.

I just think people feel that Beirne is entitled to play but don't stand back and think why he isn't, and try to dismiss an important tool as calling the lineout so they can make a case for him to start over a very good one in Roux.

Exclamation Marc

If calling a line out is so easy how come they're turned over or lost frequently enough?

It's not like a driver theory test you can learn in a couple of weeks.

Whilst it's likely not rocket science, it's clearly not something that you can pick up, learn and master easy enough otherwise it would be a basic facet of training every player in a line out.

ionadnapokot

stephen_n wrote: »

I think Roux has more than earned his place in the last two games. He has demonstrated far more at international level so far than Beirne has had the chance to. If anything Beirne lost out to Dillane this week, not Roux. The French game however will be a different story.



Calling it is easy, being good at it is clearly not.

Good point re: Dillane
Beirne is unlucky so.

Dubinusa

I would like to see Beirne get a run out in the 6 shirt.
I think he's certainly capable of causing havoc in the back row and alongside SOB could really create pandemonium for the opposition.
I think Dillane is deserving of his opportunity this week and while Beirne is a different type of player, I think Dillane is a bigger man and he also can take the play to the opposing pack. They are both athletic and very good in different areas.
But, Dillane has stuttered since his debut. I know his mother passed away and he had a difficult time.
Beirne has kicked on since leaving Leinster and has been more consistent.
I think we are well positioned if Ryan was to get hurt.
I think Toners injury has been more of a burden to the team. His role is underestimated.

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

fully agree, these are international professional rugby players, they will have the likes of Best and POM in tandem, no doubt Dillane and Beirne could pick up the duties, besides we will usually have Toner as well.

We're talking if we dont have Toner there. Toner calls lineout. Its other lineout callers and having Best/POM isnt the issue. They dont call the lineout. Having your 2nd row who can pick best option(s) is key and isnt that simple

Dubinusa wrote: »

I would like to see Beirne get a run out in the 6 shirt.
I think he's certainly capable of causing havoc in the back row and alongside SOB could really create pandemonium for the opposition.
I think Dillane is deserving of his opportunity this week and while Beirne is a different type of player, I think Dillane is a bigger man and he also can take the play to the opposing pack. They are both athletic and very good in different areas.
But, Dillane has stuttered since his debut. I know his mother passed away and he had a difficult time.
Beirne has kicked on since leaving Leinster and has been more consistent.
I think we are well positioned if Ryan was to get hurt.
I think Toners injury has been more of a burden to the team. His role is underestimated.

I dont think Beirne is at international level. He isnt that good. You are very much overestimating Beirnes ability and really he's only going to be looked at as second row considering depth of player already available for back row

Wegians89

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont think Beirne is at international level. He isnt that good. You are very much overestimating Beirnes ability and really he's only going to be looked at as second row considering depth of player already available for back row

Had thought beirne isn’t good enough at the basics of a second row at international level, especially for a Schmidt team. He’s an extremely talented player but I think his skill set is more suited to backrow at test level. He can shine at club level as it’s not as intense. Saying that if you’re bringing 5 locks in a World Cup squad, I think he gets in there as he could cover anywhere from 4 to 8.

thebaz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We're talking if we dont have Toner there. Toner calls lineout. Its other lineout callers and having Best/POM isnt the issue. They dont call the lineout. Having your 2nd row who can pick best option(s) is key and isnt that simple

my point is , surely it cant be that difficult for Beirne or Dillane to become a lineout caller - surly Best would have some input in to lineout calling as the thrower and team captain.

sydthebeat

thebaz wrote: »

my point is , surely it cant be that difficult for Beirne or Dillane to become a lineout caller - surly Best would have some input in to lineout calling as the thrower and team captain.

Too much been made about line out calling. James Ryan has already started calling.... So it will be a moot point in the not so distant future

Paul Smeenus

Wegians89 wrote: »

Had thought beirne isn’t good enough at the basics of a second row at international level, especially for a Schmidt team. He’s an extremely talented player but I think his skill set is more suited to backrow at test level. He can shine at club level as it’s not as intense. Saying that if you’re bringing 5 locks in a World Cup squad, I think he gets in there as he could cover anywhere from 4 to 8.

I would not want to see him at 7 or 8 internationally. I suspect what's outweighing his MOTM performances against an imploding Ospreys etc are his two Castres performances. Tough, physical games, under a lot of pressure, and... I'll be diplomatic here - he didn't put his head above the parapet.

stephen_n

thebaz wrote: »

my point is , surely it cant be that difficult for Beirne or Dillane to become a lineout caller - surly Best would have some input in to lineout calling as the thrower and team captain.

If it isn’t and it would increase their chances of getting picked, why don’t they?

Paul Smeenus

stephen_n wrote: »

If it isn’t and it would increase their chances of getting picked, why don’t they?

Only logical conclusion is that they're too lazy and/or stupid.

Shefwedfan

thebaz wrote: »

you do talk nonsense , if you think beating Italy is a great achievement in this WC year , fair eneogh , Italy have not been a force since the 90s , I think this Irish team think bigger and should be looking at the bigger picture of a good WC campaign , now we can no longer win the Grand slam. Nothing to do with getting caps just building a squad for the bigger days.

As a few people have pointed out, your “team” had a few flaws in it....

When did Italy best Ireland? Beat the French? 90s?

Bazzo

thebaz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As a few people have pointed out, your “team” had a few flaws in it....

When did Italy best Ireland? Beat the French? 90s?

seriously, I named a team of the top of my head , and you said I named half the players out of position, when the only one out of position was Conway/Henshaw at full back , when we are looking for a deputy 15 , and Italy would be a perfect opportunity to try it out.

Don't know what your point is about Italy . - yes I said Italy havnt been a contender since the 90's , and thats just a fact, they may not even be the 6th best team in Europe.

PTH2009

3 BP wins in the rest of our games might still not be enough too win the title.

Think we will end up on 19pts in that case,

England with 2BP wins against Scotland/Italy will leave then on 20pts.

Wales could end on 21pts and a grand slam

Amprodude

PTH2009 wrote: »

3 BP wins in the rest of our games might still not be enough too win the title.

Think we will end up on 19pts in that case,

England with 2BP wins against Scotland/Italy will leave then on 20pts.

Wales could end on 21pts and a grand slam

Scotland will never beat England and leave it wide open for us.

troyzer

Amprodude wrote: »

PTH2009 wrote: »

3 BP wins in the rest of our games might still not be enough too win the title.

Think we will end up on 19pts in that case,

England with 2BP wins against Scotland/Italy will leave then on 20pts.

Wales could end on 21pts and a grand slam

Scotland will never beat England and leave it wide open for us.

The way Wales would never go out and beat England in the second half?

Seriously though, I'm inclined to agree with you.

The most likely scenario for me is that we rock up in Cardiff at best hoping to be a spoiler.

Former Former

PTH2009 wrote: »

3 BP wins in the rest of our games might still not be enough too win the title.

Think we will end up on 19pts in that case,

England with 2BP wins against Scotland/Italy will leave then on 20pts.

Wales could end on 21pts and a grand slam

??

If we beat Wales, how do they get a grand slam?

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

??

If we beat Wales, how do they get a grand slam?

Magic

troyzer

A huge performance against Italy can make it a wash in terms of point difference. England are currently 43 points ahead. I imagine we could win by that against Italy.

Of course, the downside is that England still have to play Italy as well.

So to have even the slimmest of chances going into the final game, we'd also need to completely batter France at home.