Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

rm75

Interview with Stockdale in the presbyterian herald, always a cracking read.

http://www.presbyterianireland.org/Blog/February-2019/Presbyterian-Herald-March-2019.aspx

leakyboots

Rhys Marshall is arguably one of the best hookers playing in Ireland at the moment. I do think he's suffered a little dip in form lately (think he's back after injury?) but last season especially he was brilliant. Himself and Scannell really drive each other on. I don't think Munster fans mind which of the pair of them start to be honest.

Interesting view from Murray Kinsella on Conor Murray's Six Nations thus far

https://www.the42.ie/analysis-conor-murray-ireland-six-nations-4513683-Feb2019/

Some interesting nuggets:

TL;DR - Murray actually hasn't been as poor as some have been suggesting. Not playing as brilliant as he can either though.

"We have reviewed each and every one of his passes in the three games so far in order to get a better understanding of his overall competence here.

Against England, we counted four of Murray’s 100 passes as ‘poor,’ whereby the ball went to ground or noticeably made the target player check to receive it

There were a further four passes from Murray in this game that we marked as ‘inaccurate,’ a category above ‘poor.’

Against Scotland, we counted three ‘poor’ passes and a further four ‘inaccurate’ efforts, from his total of 114, another solid return."

Kinsella makes the point that Tebaldi came in from the side when Murray was stripped against, rightly points out that it's Murray's reaction (turning his back and giving out to the ref) that was most disappointing.

For getting snagged off the back of the maul, Kinsella notes that Sisi appears to have joined the maul initially from the side but Jackson doesn't call it.

His kicking against England was mixed, only kicked 3 times against Scotland and had a pretty good day out against Italy.

Despite coming back from a shoulder injury (Kinsella notes his left arm is visibly slimmer than the other since the op) he made 13 tackles against England, slipping one on Manu Tuilagi.

Good defensive display against Scotland.

Two missed tackles against Italy, one a linespeed miss when he had cover and the other poor effort at a kick chase

nice_guy80

Basically we need to stop kicking the ball back to the opposition
Get better distance on our box kicks from inside the 21 into touch
Start asking questions of the rush defences we face by playing small grabbers and chip kicks in behind and get the opposition turned
Oh, and stop box kicking it away so much as our chase has been brutal

joseywhales

Perifect wrote: »

American. Irish. American.

Do you define irish american as someone who was born in america but may have lived in Ireland for most of their lives?
Do you define irish american as someone who has lived most of their lives in America but was born in Ireland?
Do you define either as irish american?

troyzer

Good interview here, same old reserved ****e but he gives away more than most.

In other news, Luke Fitzgerald is going full on Neil Francis lately in the Left Wing saying we should be starting Zebo and dropping Roux just because he's South African.

thegreycity

Perifect wrote: »

The foreign player's talk is depressing.

Roux is an Irish citizen and has every right to represent us in sports, aside from any rugby specific rule that allowed him to in the first place.

thegreycity

rm75 wrote: »

Interview with Stockdale in the presbyterian herald, always a cracking read.

http://www.presbyterianireland.org/Blog/February-2019/Presbyterian-Herald-March-2019.aspx

Frankly it's my favourite publication.

randomname2005

leakyboots wrote: »

Rhys Marshall is arguably one of the best hookers playing in Ireland at the moment. I do think he's suffered a little dip in form lately (think he's back after injury?) but last season especially he was brilliant. Himself and Scannell really drive each other on. I don't think Munster fans mind which of the pair of them start to be honest.

Interesting view from Murray Kinsella on Conor Murray's Six Nations thus far

https://www.the42.ie/analysis-conor-murray-ireland-six-nations-4513683-Feb2019/

Some interesting nuggets:

TL;DR - Murray actually hasn't been as poor as some have been suggesting. Not playing as brilliant as he can either though.

"We have reviewed each and every one of his passes in the three games so far in order to get a better understanding of his overall competence here.

Against England, we counted four of Murray’s 100 passes as ‘poor,’ whereby the ball went to ground or noticeably made the target player check to receive it

There were a further four passes from Murray in this game that we marked as ‘inaccurate,’ a category above ‘poor.’

Against Scotland, we counted three ‘poor’ passes and a further four ‘inaccurate’ efforts, from his total of 114, another solid return."

Kinsella makes the point that Tebaldi came in from the side when Murray was stripped against, rightly points out that it's Murray's reaction (turning his back and giving out to the ref) that was most disappointing.

For getting snagged off the back of the maul, Kinsella notes that Sisi appears to have joined the maul initially from the side but Jackson doesn't call it.

His kicking against England was mixed, only kicked 3 times against Scotland and had a pretty good day out against Italy.

Despite coming back from a shoulder injury (Kinsella notes his left arm is visibly slimmer than the other since the op) he made 13 tackles against England, slipping one on Manu Tuilagi.

Good defensive display against Scotland.

Two missed tackles against Italy, one a linespeed miss when he had cover and the other poor effort at a kick chase

What about his speed of pass? Is that anyway faster or slower? What about his speed to rucks and the time he takes to get the ball out? Harder things to measure but equally as important I would think.

troyzer

randomname2005 wrote: »

What about his speed of pass? Is that anyway faster or slower? What about his speed to rucks and the time he takes to get the ball out? Harder things to measure but equally as important I would think.

His speed has been my main issue and Kinsella didn't really talk about it. Good article all the same but it doesn't get to the heart of why our attack is floundering: slow ruck ball.

Clegg

According to the Indo, Carbery will miss the rest of the Six Nations and is a doubt for Munster's Champions Cup QF fixture. We might now see Ross Byrne pulled from the Leinster squad.

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/joey-carbery-to-miss-six-nations-finale-and-facing-fitness-race-for-champions-cup-quarterfinal-37859684.html?dfhfgfgfghhhgff

EachSmallChime

troyzer wrote: »

Good interview here, same old reserved ****e but he gives away more than most.

In other news, Luke Fitzgerald is going full on Neil Francis lately in the Left Wing saying we should be starting Zebo and dropping Roux just because he's South African.

Someone should probably tell him that Quinn Roux has an Irish passport...

https://www.the42.ie/quinn-roux-ireland-passport-citizen-4504685-Feb2019/

Buer

randomname2005 wrote: »

What about his speed to rucks and the time he takes to get the ball out? Harder things to measure but equally as important I would think.

That was the single biggest thing that stood out to me in the first half against Italy. There were at least 3 or 4 occasions where the ball was at the back of the ruck and Murray was still making his way across to the base, allowing the defence to reset and line up attackers. Kinsella's analysis is great but I find it odd for him to overlook/not include that facet of a scrumhalf performance.

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

That was the single biggest thing that stood out to me in the first half against Italy. There were at least 3 or 4 occasions where the ball was at the back of the ruck and Murray was still making his way across to the base, allowing the defence to reset and line up attackers. Kinsella's analysis is great but I find it odd for him to overlook/not include that facet of a scrumhalf performance.

There's definitely an element of "the lady doth protest too much" in that article

Zzippy

troyzer wrote: »

Good interview here, same old reserved ****e but he gives away more than most.

In other news, Luke Fitzgerald is going full on Neil Francis lately in the Left Wing saying we should be starting Zebo and dropping Roux just because he's South African.

Fitzgerald lost any credibility as a pundit pretty much as soon as he started, and deserves as much respect as Francis.

troyzer

Zzippy wrote: »

Fitzgerald lost any credibility as a pundit pretty much as soon as he started, and deserves as much respect as Francis.

Yeah. I still listen to his podcast though because for whatever reason, a lot of guys still in camp like him and he does manage to land big name interviews with people who seem more willing to open up to him than normal.

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

There's definitely an element of "the lady doth protest too much" in that article

I don't want to be disingenuous as Kinsella is doing work that no other rugby journalist does in this country....or most countries for that matter.

But I always take it with a small pinch of salt when I see a journalist passing comment/verdict on a player that was a former team mate.

There's undoubtedly a lot true in what he says but the tone of the article from the very outset is to reel in the criticism Murray has been experiencing.

Zzippy

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah. I still listen to his podcast though because for whatever reason, a lot of guys still in camp like him and he does manage to land big name interviews with people who seem more willing to open up to him than normal.

He's a terrible interviewer though, if I want to hear an interview I want to hear the person beign interviewed, not the interviewer constantly interjecting and talking over them. He may have improved, I stopped listening a long time ago. He's also as biased as Frankie Sheahan was, and as xenophobic as Francis. Not a good combination.

mfceiling

His accent...I can't.

troyzer

Zzippy wrote: »

He's a terrible interviewer though, if I want to hear an interview I want to hear the person beign interviewed, not the interviewer constantly interjecting and talking over them. He may have improved, I stopped listening a long time ago. He's also as biased as Frankie Sheahan was, and as xenophobic as Francis. Not a good combination.

Awful interviewer but for whatever reason, lads will talk to him. Even if he tries really hard to **** it up.

He's a bit better now.

ionadnapokot

Buer wrote: »

I don't want to be disingenuous as Kinsella is doing work that no other rugby journalist does in this country....or most countries for that matter.

But I always take it with a small pinch of salt when I see a journalist passing comment/verdict on a player that was a former team mate.

There's undoubtedly a lot true in what he says but the tone of the article from the very outset is to reel in the criticism Murray has been experiencing.

Kinsella is a class act. Love his pieces. This falls short of his usual standards.
How can you properly analyse a 9 without discussing the speed of the pass? It’s nearly back at his 2011 level.

I thought his finest ever performance was vFra in 2017. Everything he did that day was World class. Including his defense.
He is so far from that level today I have my doubts if he can get close to that by September.

evil_seed

Zzippy wrote: »

He's a terrible interviewer though, if I want to hear an interview I want to hear the person beign interviewed, not the interviewer constantly interjecting and talking over them. He may have improved, I stopped listening a long time ago. He's also as biased as Frankie Sheahan was, and as xenophobic as Francis. Not a good combination.

He just regurgitates other interviews. Every time it's "You've said XYZ before when speaking to <name>, is that true?"

Mr Tickle

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Kinsella is a class act. Love his pieces. This falls short of his usual standards.
How can you properly analyse a 9 without discussing the speed of the pass? It’s nearly back at his 2011 level.

I thought his finest ever performance was vFra in 2017. Everything he did that day was World class. Including his defense.
He is so far from that level today I have my doubts if he can get close to that by September.

It would be interesting to see someone do an analysis of ruck times. Italy were getting such quick ball in the first half particularly. Ours seemed very slow by comparison.
with the way Murray Kinsella likes to dig into the details he could give some great insight.
What's a good ruck time? (look at other top teams)
how many of our rucks went over this?
what caused the slow ball? (bad presentation, clear out, scrum half, opposition being sneaky, the rest of the team getting set)

If anyone here knows Murray and wants to pass on the idea please do.

troyzer

Mr Tickle wrote: »

It would be interesting to see someone do an analysis of ruck times. Italy were getting such quick ball in the first half particularly. Ours seemed very slow by comparison.
with the way Murray Kinsella likes to dig into the details he could give some great insight.
What's a good ruck time? (look at other top teams)
how many of our rucks went over this?
what caused the slow ball? (bad presentation, clear out, scrum half, opposition being sneaky, the rest of the team getting set)

If anyone here knows Murray and wants to pass on the idea please do.

I think 3 seconds is the gold standard of fast ruck. I could be wrong there but from tackle to pass, 3 seconds is the aim.

ionadnapokot

Mr Tickle wrote: »

It would be interesting to see someone do an analysis of ruck times. Italy were getting such quick ball in the first half particularly. Ours seemed very slow by comparison.
with the way Murray Kinsella likes to dig into the details he could give some great insight.
What's a good ruck time? (look at other top teams)
how many of our rucks went over this?
what caused the slow ball? (bad presentation, clear out, scrum half, opposition being sneaky, the rest of the team getting set)

If anyone here knows Murray and wants to pass on the idea please do.

Less than 3 secs is quick ball.
I’m not sure if Ireland ruck ball itself has been much over 3secs. But Murray getting the ball away from the ruck has been slow.
Opposition aren’t committing players to the ruck, which brings up the offside line and they blitz up (generally offside) on the delayed and slow pass.

clsmooth

I think I’d like to see a few more pick and goes from rucks. ‘Go through the guts’ as EOS would say to keep the defenses a bit more honest.

Mucky_Tackies

thegreycity wrote: »

Frankly it's my favourite publication.

The annual subscription fees are justified by the page 3 spreads

sydthebeat

clsmooth wrote: »

I think I’d like to see a few more pick and goes from rucks. ‘Go through the guts’ as EOS would say to keep the defenses a bit more honest.

100%
we dont seem to be willing to consider that as an option, which allows for the defending team fan out easier.

another sign that we are missing Leavy, who has a bit of a knack for that move... coupled with his (almost) trademark 1 / 2 with Ryan

thebaz

Zzippy wrote: »

He's a terrible interviewer though, if I want to hear an interview I want to hear the person beign interviewed, not the interviewer constantly interjecting and talking over them. He may have improved, I stopped listening a long time ago. He's also as biased as Frankie Sheahan was, and as xenophobic as Francis. Not a good combination.

he may be a poor interviewer , but how is he xenophobic, is it for saying Roux is South African ?

troyzer

thebaz wrote: »

he may be a poor interviewer , but how is he xenophobic, is it for saying Roux is South African ?

He doesn't want him on the team because he was born in South Africa.

Despite being an Irish citizen and having lived here for seven years. If somebody in work told you they didn't want to hire somebody even though they were Irish because they were born in a different country, you'd be calling them xenophobic and racist.

I hope.

thebaz

troyzer wrote: »

He doesn't want him on the team because he was born in South Africa.

Despite being an Irish citizen and having lived here for seven years. If somebody in work told you they didn't want to hire somebody even though they were Irish because they were born in a different country, you'd be calling them xenophobic and racist.

I hope.

don't see that as racist - like I see James Lowe as a New Zealander , but cause he lives hear 3 or 4 years to play rugby professionally, is he suddenly Irish - PC nonsense really, people can have opinions on this without being termed racist. The work examkle is totally irrelevant , we are talking about players playing international rugby.

troyzer

thebaz wrote: »

don't see that as racist - like I see James Lowe as a New Zealander , but cause he lives hear 3 or 4 years to play rugby professionally, is he suddenly Irish - PC nonsense really, people can have opinions on this without being termed racist. The work examkle is totally irrelevant , we are talking about players playing international rugby.

If he becomes an Irish citizen, yes. He is Irish.

We are talking about Irish citizens playing Irish international rugby in complete compliance with the World Rugby regulations.

Saying he shouldn't be there because he was born abroad is xenophobic, it just is.

Former Former

If you actually listen to the podcast which no one has, he says he doesn't like the project thing but he's also very clear that he couldn't understand the Roux selection because Henderson is so much better. Which is true. Roux isn't at the required level.

Do we have to get outraged over everything?

Apparently, yes.

kingofthekong

Racist and xenophobic are pretty big accusations to be thrown around and not valid in this instance in my opinion, James Lowe i would still call a kiwi even if he lived her for 7 years - nothing about that is racist

troyzer

Former Former wrote: »

If you actually listen to the podcast which no one has, he says he doesn't like the project thing but he's also very clear that he couldn't understand the Roux selection because Henderson is so much better. Which is true.

Do we have to get outraged over everything?

Apparently, yes.

I did listen to it. He initially says Roux shouldn't be playing because "he's not Irish". He later mentions that Henderson was better. But he definitely led off with "he's not Irish".

troyzer

Listen to it from the 37:00 mark.

thebaz

troyzer wrote: »

If he becomes an Irish citizen, yes. He is Irish.

We are talking about Irish citizens playing Irish international rugby in complete compliance with the World Rugby regulations.

Saying he shouldn't be there because he was born abroad is xenophobic, it just is.

to have an opinion on whether professional rugby players are eligble to play for a particular country is now ok to be termed racist or zenohobic - this is just PC nonsense - from someone who has witnessed real racism , and stood up to it.

Former Former

kingofthekong wrote: »

Racist and xenophobic are pretty big accusations to be thrown around and not valid in this instance in my opinion, James Lowe i would still call a kiwi even if he lived her for 7 years - nothing about that is racist

Yeah.

Apparently its bang out of order to call a South African guy South African but absolutely fine to call someone a racist for saying it.

Such is the internet.

Roux isn't good enough. That's my main issue. He can have 59 different passports and nothing will change that.

troyzer

thebaz wrote: »

to have an opinion on whether professional rugby players are eligble to play for a particular country is now ok to be termed racist or zenohobic - this is just PC nonsense - from someone who has witnessed real racism , and stood up to it.

No, you can argue about whether or not the system is fair. But he has done absolutely nothing wrong. He's abided by all of the rules and is now as Irish as a pig's smile seeing as how he has a passport. He's a citizen and that's good enough for me.

Go after the system, not the man. But the idea that you'd drop an Irish citizen (which Henderson might not be by the way) because he was born abroad is madness.

thomond2006

What has citizenship of ROI got to do with eligibility for an all island team? I'm lost.

thebaz

troyzer wrote: »

No, you can argue about whether or not the system is fair. But he has done absolutely nothing wrong. He's abided by all of the rules and is now as Irish as a pig's smile seeing as how he has a passport. He's a citizen and that's good enough for me.

Go after the system, not the man. But the idea that you'd drop an Irish citizen (which Henderson might not be by the way) because he was born abroad is madness.

but to have an opinion that he is South African (even thogh he was born and bred) and that Henderson or Dillane or Beirne may be more eligble to play professional rugby fort Ireland- is grounds to be called racist , is not how I understand the word racist , or what Mandela and Martin Luther King fought for.

troyzer

thebaz wrote: »

but to have an opinion that he is South African (even thogh he was born and bred) and that Henderson or Dillane or Beirne may be more eligble to play professional rugby fort Ireland- is grounds to be called racist , is not how I understand the word racist , or what Mandela and Martin Luther King fought for.

Xenophobic is a better word seeing as how he's white. But Dillane (born abroad as well), Henderson and Beirne have no more right to play for Ireland under the regulations than Roux does.

Xenophobia is a dislike or prejudice against people from other countries, if you're singling Roux out for being foreign born when all else is equal (other than talent obviously but that wasn't the basis of Fitzgerald's point), then it is xenophobia. That's what the word means.

Former Former

Ah f**k this.

It does not make you racist or xenophobic to be against the project system.

People throw these words around to signal their own virtue but haven't the first clue what they mean.

clsmooth

sydthebeat wrote: »

100%
we dont seem to be willing to consider that as an option, which allows for the defending team fan out easier.

another sign that we are missing Leavy, who has a bit of a knack for that move... coupled with his (almost) trademark 1 / 2 with Ryan

Spot on, Leavy’s grunt is missed. The worrying thing is his injury record. Last year’s run almost seemed the exception to the rule as he had struggled with injuries before his Leinster breakthrough too.

We’ve already had some success a couple of times from the pick and go. Cronin’s break for Cooney’s try against England and Murray breaking and getting an offload off to Furlong v Italy. No harm doing it a little more. It’s naturally going to stop the defensive line from shooting up at the same speed each time if they have to turn on their heels and retreat to get back into position. Suddenly that gives the likes of Ryan and Furlong more of a chance to break the gainline and Sexton and the backline a little more space to operate in. It’s over simplifying to some degree, but little tweaks like that can make a big difference.

thebaz

troyzer wrote: »

Xenophobic is a better word seeing as how he's white. But Dillane (born abroad as well), Henderson and Beirne have no more right to play for Ireland under the regulations than Roux does.

Xenophobia is a dislike or prejudice against people from other countries, if you're singling Roux out for being foreign born when all else is equal (other than talent obviously but that wasn't the basis of Fitzgerald's point), then it is xenophobia. That's what the word means.

Dillane grew up in Ireland since 6 or 7 , so he's Irish - thats my opinion - Roux came here to play professional rugby as an adult - maybe it ticks the boxes , but people should be allowed have opinions on his elibility without tbeing racist/xenohobic . . Anyway made my point - Im done.

troyzer

Former Former wrote: »

Ah f**k this.

It does not make you racist or xenophobic to be against the project system.

People throw these words around to signal their own virtue but haven't the first clue what they mean.

No, it doesn't. But we're talking about an individual who has done everything by the book, not the system.

Former Former

troyzer wrote: »

No, it doesn't. But we're talking about an individual who has done everything by the book, not the system.

Here's something to think about.

Luke Fitzgerald is {whatever} for not agreeing with project players.

Since the law has now been changed by a pretty unanimous decision of all world rugby unions, are they all racists and xenophobes too?

Or maybe it's just a bit more complicated than hating foreigners?

errlloyd

Former Former wrote: »

Luke Fitzgerald is Bitter for not agreeing with project players.

I've gone with Bitter. He's pissed he was behind Payne in 2015.

troyzer

Former Former wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

No, it doesn't. But we're talking about an individual who has done everything by the book, not the system.

Here's something to think about.

Luke Fitzgerald is {whatever} for not agreeing with project players.

Since the law has now been changed by a pretty unanimous decision of all world rugby unions, are they all racists and xenophobes too?

Or maybe it's just a bit more complicated than hating foreigners?

I have no problem with being opposed to the system. I'm in that bracket.

I do have a problem with excluding someone even though they've ticked every box just because they're foreign born.

I honestly put this in the same category of the idiots who thought Rory Best shouldn't be captain because he's a Brit.

clsmooth

errlloyd wrote: »

I've gone with Bitter. He's pissed he was behind Payne in 2015.

There may be an element of that but surely he’d be more irritated that he found himself behind Earls as replacement centre in 2015. Didn’t agree with the decision at the time and still think he should have stated ahead of Earls in the RWC.

tototoe

Are people really getting excited by what Luke Fitz has to say. A woeful pundit, even worse commentator and works for the indo...seriously who the hell cares what he has to say.