Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Annabella1

Is Kleyn going to be eligible for Ireland soon ??
I would put him 5th or 6th in line currently

tototoe

tototoe wrote: »

Are people really getting excited by what Luke Fitz has to say. A woeful pundit, even worse commentator and works for the indo...seriously who the hell cares what he has to say.

He really jumped the shark by saying Madigan should be starting at 10. Purely trying to make some noise.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

He really jumped the shark by saying Madigan should be starting at 10. Purely trying to make some noise.

When I saw that I thought he morphed into George Hook

salmocab

phog wrote: »

When I saw that I thought he morphed into George Hook

Funnily that may be the sort of thing he’s aiming at, make an outrageous statement and just move on without having to back it up.

thegreycity

thebaz wrote: »

don't see that as racist - like I see James Lowe as a New Zealander , but cause he lives hear 3 or 4 years to play rugby professionally, is he suddenly Irish - PC nonsense really, people can have opinions on this without being termed racist. The work examkle is totally irrelevant , we are talking about players playing international rugby.

The gatekeeping of what is true "Irishness" is mad in this country. Being Irish is treated like some mystical, inherent quality that no one can really describe but everyone agrees exists.

In America, if you are a citizen then you're an American. Any other insinuation is flat-out xenophobic. But we're still stuck in a pre-immigration mindset of cultural protectionism.

"Is he Irish? But is he Irish Irish?"

It's all nonsense, if you're a citizen then you shouldn't be treated any different from someone who grew up on the island. Any other distinction being used to identify nationality is on the same spectrum as the beliefs of the Stephen Millers and Richard Spencers of this world.

Sorry for the rant, just something that grinds my gears.

Paul Smeenus

thegreycity wrote: »

The gatekeeping of what is true "Irishness" is mad in this country. Being Irish is treated like some mystical, inherent quality that no one can really describe but everyone agrees exists.

In America, if you are a citizen then you're an American. Any other insinuation is flat-out xenophobic. But we're still stuck in a pre-immigration mindset of cultural protectionism.

"Is he Irish? But is he Irish Irish?"

It's all nonsense, if you're a citizen then you shouldn't be treated any different from someone who grew up on the island. Any other distinction being used to identify nationality is on the same spectrum as the beliefs of the Stephen Millers and Richard Spencers of this world.

Sorry for the rant, just something that grinds my gears.

But there are a number of Irish players who aren’t Irish citIens, such as the captain. You’d have to extend your criteria to Irish citIzens and British citizens/subjects. Which doesn’t really work.

Former Former

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

But there are a number of Irish players who aren’t Irish citIens, such as the captain. You’d have to extend your criteria to Irish citIzens and British citizens/subjects. Which doesn’t really work.

No no no, citizenship is the only criteria, anything else is xenophobic.

We therefore cannot consider Bundee Aki or CJ Stander to be Irish. It would be xenophobic to do so.

Am I doing this right?

Dubinusa

I've been an American citizen since 1994. I had to be a citizen for it was a job requirement.
I consider myself Irish. I was born and raised in Ireland.
My kids are yanks! They consider themselves Irish Americans, but they are Americans. They love Ireland and have been over many times. But, if they were rugby players, they should play for America.
It's not Roux or any other project players fault, that the rules are as they are.
Roux has done nothing wrong. He's making a decent living, doing what he loves. Luke Fitzgerald should try get the execs from world rugby on his podcast. If the axe needs grinding, speak to the rule makers.
Other foreign players have added to the community and the game.
Fardy has an Irishborn child.
Strauss is a citizen.
Payne is coaching Ulster to new heights and has an Irish girlfriend.
Isa has an Irish born child? I think.
Blaming the imports is nutz.
Look at Ian McKinley! He's making a living in Italy, when the door seemed closed for him.
I'm not a fan of the project system. But, I dislike the system and not the players.
England use the same rules. They have foreign players strewn across the premiership. I cant think of one premiership side that does not have project players or just foreign players.
Luke is like Hook in a way. He's a rabble rouser making a living discussing rugby and the project player system. He should be grateful.

Paul Smeenus

Former Former wrote: »

No no no, citizenship is the only criteria, anything else is xenophobic.

We therefore cannot consider Bundee Aki or CJ Stander to be Irish. It would be xenophobic to do so.

Am I doing this right?

Honestly, I’ve no idea.

Can’t we all just get along?

thegreycity

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

But there are a number of Irish players who aren’t Irish citIens, such as the captain. You’d have to extend your criteria to Irish citIzens and British citizens/subjects. Which doesn’t really work.

Yea, I'll agree the Northern Irish aspect complicates it somewhat in respect to the national team, but I don't think it changes the fundamental point. The Irish rugby team represents the Republic and the North, if you're a citizen of the Republic you have every right to represent the team.

As the north is essentially treated as a region of the United Kingdom and not a country in its own right when it comes to citizenship, it becomes messy. But I would still say the same for a person who became a British citizen in NI as I would for someone who became a citizen in the south.

thegreycity

Former Former wrote: »

No no no, citizenship is the only criteria, anything else is xenophobic.

We therefore cannot consider Bundee Aki or CJ Stander to be Irish. It would be xenophobic to do so.

Am I doing this right?

So is that your perspective? That Roux isn't Irish despite being a citizen but Aki and Stander are because of sporting achievements?

Henry Ford III

The players merely need to be qualified to play for Ireland. I'd reasonably certain that they are.

Nothing else really matters.

Eod100

Former Former wrote: »

No no no, citizenship is the only criteria, anything else is xenophobic.

We therefore cannot consider Bundee Aki or CJ Stander to be Irish. It would be xenophobic to do so.

Am I doing this right?

I haven't read every post on it but I assume the point was there seems to be a contradiction in being of the view that one Irish citizen should be picked over another Irish citizen simply because one happened to be born here. It doesn't follow that the team shouldn't pick players who aren't citizens.

I think from Fitzgerald's point of view, he ties his thinking in with IRFU not selecting Irish players playing abroad while selecting players not born in Ireland playing for the provinces.

I only have issue with Aki and Zebo playing for Ireland

joseywhales

Deleted User wrote: »

I only have issue with Aki and Zebo playing for Ireland

And Gavin Henson playing for Wales

Former Former

thegreycity wrote: »

So is that your perspective? That Roux isn't Irish despite being a citizen but Aki and Stander are because of sporting achievements?

Sorry, too subtle.

I was pointing out how ridiculous your perspective is.

thegreycity

Former Former wrote: »

Sorry, too subtle.

I was pointing out how ridiculous your perspective is.

Easier to hide behind quips and counter-points than try to develop an actual viewpoint, isn't it?

Perifect

thegreycity wrote: »

Roux is an Irish citizen and has every right to represent us in sports, aside from any rugby specific rule that allowed him to in the first place.

I wasn't talking about Roux.

Wegians89

luke Fitzgerald only mentions stuff like Madigan playing for Ireland and project players because he knows they’re touchy subjects. The guy just wants to stay relevant.

joseywhales

Sexton has been pissed about a kick chase missing from his winger in the england game for weeks now. He has referred it in two different interviews and bitched a lot about it during the match also.

Imagine ruminating on that for 3 weeks, I think sometimes you just have to let things go.

b.gud

Deleted User wrote: »

I only have issue with Aki and Zebo playing for Ireland

Rob Kearney must be borderline for you

Former Former

thegreycity wrote: »

Easier to hide behind quips and counter-points than try to develop an actual viewpoint, isn't it?

It's even easier to make ridiculous statements without putting any thought into it.

Your position doesn't make any sense because citizenship is totally arbitrary. Did Roux only become Irish the minute he signed his papers? If so, what was an hour earlier? If he kept his SA citizenship, does that make him only 50% Irish? Or is he 100% Irish and 100% South African? He's a big guy I guess but 200% is pushing it even for him.

My viewpoint is that anyone who's eligible should be picked. I think some of the project players have made a great contribution and anyone else who qualifies should be considered for selection.

My viewpoint is that I don't care if Quinn Roux changes his name to Ruairi Quinn, and I don't care if Stander and Aki never become citizens. Just let them play rugby.

Where you and I differ is that I think this is a really complex issue and I don't think that people who disagree with me are racists.

Perifect

We could be looking at 5 or 6 foreigners playing for Ireland in the next couple of years. I don't think that's right. For players with relations here, that's fine but not the project players. Nothing I or others can do about it I suppose. And stop the nonsense about players from the North, they are Irish so are playing for Ireland.

awec

The project player talk has been done to the death. No point rehashing it all again. Drop it and move on

thegreycity

Deleted

Shefwedfan

Nobody is listening to Luke Fitz podcast. He knows when he mentioned the subject before it was splashed all over the press.....

How do I get clicks, fire it out again and see how many people listen.....

Like most of these podcast/articles etc they are just click bait. Want example, just have a look at the likes of walesonline.....everything is a article with a heading like "Joe Schimidt says he hates Wales"....then if you click and read the article it is nothing of th esort but at that stage you have clicked and the advertisers have you down.....

jacothelad

thegreycity wrote: »

Frankly it's my favourite publication.

Love the Page 3 pics...... [/IMG]

Bazzo

Former Former wrote: »

Which is true. Roux isn't at the required level.

Former Former wrote: »

Roux isn't good enough. That's my main issue. He can have 59 different passports and nothing will change that.

You're entitled to your opinion but it's abundantly clear that Joe Schmidt disagrees with you.

Oh and:

I suppose if you have an Irish passport, you are Irish and it takes five years to get a passport here and I would think if you have a passport you are able to play.

- Luke Fitzgerald

lol

swiwi_

kingofthekong wrote: »

Racist and xenophobic are pretty big accusations to be thrown around and not valid in this instance in my opinion, James Lowe i would still call a kiwi even if he lived her for 7 years - nothing about that is racist

I’d say you’d probably still call James Lowe a Kiwi if he lived in Ireland for 70 years. For a country that has sent so many of it’s own abroad there is a segment of the Irish population that is extremely reluctant to let anyone born overseas ever be considered Irish. It’s probably tied up with history and the English colonisation but I’d never deign to consider myself an expert in the matter. NZ is the opposite on the issue where people get offended if you don’t consider yourself a Kiwi after 6 months living there. Anyway this is more for the off topic thread.

Dubinusa

Roux is surplus though, isn't he? He will most likely not be capped a lot. Once Toner returns, he'll be back to the fringes.
It's also possible that Henshaw, once healthy will remove Aki from the equation.
Besides Stander, there's no locked in project player.
We're fortunate in a way. Any excess or surplus from Leinster, can make up the #'s at the other provinces LOL.
just kiddin!

Bazzo

Since Aki became eligible Ireland have played 18 tests. He has played in 15/18 - all starts. 2 of the 3 he missed were Fiji and USA. Even accounting for injuries I think it's pretty mad that anybody is in any way sure that he's going to suddenly be displaced from the team.

salmocab

Bazzo wrote: »

Since Aki became eligible Ireland have played 18 tests. He has played in 15/18 - all starts. 2 of the 3 he missed were Fiji and USA. Even accounting for injuries I think it's pretty mad that anybody is in any way sure that he's going to suddenly be displaced from the team.

In fairness whilst I don’t agree with him he said it’s possible that Henshaw dislodges Aki that’s not exactly any way sure

Bazzo

salmocab wrote: »

In fairness whilst I don’t agree with him he said it’s possible that Henshaw dislodges Aki that’s not exactly any way sure

It wasn't targeted at any specific poster, it pops up here all the time. A lot of people seem to think that as soon as injury permits Aki is straight out of the team.

Akrasia

swiwi_ wrote: »

I’d say you’d probably still call James Lowe a Kiwi if he lived in Ireland for 70 years. For a country that has sent so many of it’s own abroad there is a segment of the Irish population that is extremely reluctant to let anyone born overseas ever be considered Irish. It’s probably tied up with history and the English colonisation but I’d never deign to consider myself an expert in the matter. NZ is the opposite on the issue where people get offended if you don’t consider yourself a Kiwi after 6 months living there. Anyway this is more for the off topic thread.

Its not about racism, it's the irish obsession with place and locality

My granny has lived in Ennis for almost 70 years and she still considers herself as a Kerry woman. She's not racist against Ennis people. "Where are you from?" is a very common irish question when getting to know someone. And this question is intended to build links, eg, "Oh, you're from Killorglin?, Do you know the Sheahons? My cousin is married to a Sheahon....."

These days with political correctness, it's seen as offensive by some to ask someone with different coloured skin or a different accent 'Where are you from?" but, as you said, that's a different topic for a different thread

stephen_n

Bazzo wrote: »

Since Aki became eligible Ireland have played 18 tests. He has played in 15/18 - all starts. 2 of the 3 he missed were Fiji and USA. Even accounting for injuries I think it's pretty mad that anybody is in any way sure that he's going to suddenly be displaced from the team.

How many times in those 15/18 games have both Henshaw and Ringrose been fit at the same time? I would say at this stage that Aki is our starting 12 but unless we get a run of games where all 3 remain fit, it’s impossible to be sure.

Eod100

Ross Byrne at 10 for Leinster tomorrow. Adam Bryne on wing. Andrew Porter on bench.

Hard to tell with the rest week whether this makes a difference for Ireland selection but
would imagine RB would be in line for 23 with Carbery injury.

https://twitter.com/OLSCRugby/status/1101092349462089729

Mr Tickle

Eod100 wrote: »

Ross Byrne at 10 for Leinster tomorrow. Adam Bryne on wing. Andrew Porter on bench.

Hard to tell with the rest week whether this makes a difference for Ireland selection but
would imagine RB would be in line for 23 with Carbery injury.

https://twitter.com/OLSCRugby/status/1101092349462089729

That's an active imagination you have there.

EachSmallChime

Eod100 wrote: »

Ross Byrne at 10 for Leinster tomorrow. Adam Bryne on wing. Andrew Porter on bench.

Hard to tell with the rest week whether this makes a difference for Ireland selection but
would imagine RB would be in line for 23 with Carbery injury.

https://twitter.com/OLSCRugby/status/1101092349462089729

Ross Byrne in the Leinster team but Jack Carty not released to Connacht.
Not sure I would jump to the conclusion that RB will get 23 jersey for France

Squidgy Black

EachSmallChime wrote: »

Ross Byrne in the Leinster team but Jack Carty not released to Connacht.
Not sure I would jump to the conclusion that RB will get 23 jersey for France

I'm assuming that he thinks Sexton is injured and not going to be involved.

Because otherwise that makes absolutely no sense that Carty would drop out of the team altogether in place of someone who hasn't been in the squad for the campaign.

Eod100

EachSmallChime wrote: »

Ross Byrne in the Leinster team but Jack Carty not released to Connacht.
Not sure I would jump to the conclusion that RB will get 23 jersey for France

Ah yeah, forgot about Carty. Jumped the gun a small bit!

Eod100

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'm assuming that he thinks Sexton is injured and not going to be involved.

Because otherwise that makes absolutely no sense that Carty would drop out of the team altogether in place of someone who hasn't been in the squad for the campaign.

Can't get away with a brain fart around these parts! :P

Mr Tickle

Eod100 wrote: »

Who would you think would be on bench instead?

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'm assuming that he thinks Sexton is injured and not going to be involved.

Because otherwise that makes absolutely no sense that Carty would drop out of the team altogether in place of someone who hasn't been in the squad for the campaign.

I hadn't realised that was a possibility. Has an injury been reported?

arsebiscuits1

Eod100 wrote: »

Ah yeah, forgot about Carty. Jumped the gun a small bit!

I do wonder who the next cab off the rank is.

Say Byrne (touch wood) gets a knock tomorrow, whose called up to Ireland camp as 3rd OH?

Do they go with the likes of Murray/ Cooney covering 10?

Possibly Bleyendaal or even Burns?

troyzer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I do wonder who the next cab off the rank is.

Say Byrne (touch wood) gets a knock tomorrow, whose called up to Ireland camp as 3rd OH?

Do they go with the likes of Murray/ Cooney covering 10?

Possibly Bleyendaal or even Burns?

arsebiscuits1

troyzer wrote: »

Pffft, he's injured.

We may as well fast forward a few years to the inevitable and just call Harry Byrne up now :pac:

Eod100

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I do wonder who the next cab off the rank is.

Say Byrne (touch wood) gets a knock tomorrow, whose called up to Ireland camp as 3rd OH?

Do they go with the likes of Murray/ Cooney covering 10?

Possibly Bleyendaal or even Burns?

It's a good question, not sure of answer tbh. Murray took 2 conversions while Sexton was still on pitch at weekend. Sexton not subbed off until 3 mins to go.

Squidgy Black

Mr Tickle wrote: »

I hadn't realised that was a possibility. Has an injury been reported?

No nothing official, but he's been off form and been sluggish getting back up from a few borderline hits so there's been some "suggestions" that he sit this one out.

Won't materialise though and I'd fully expect him to start.

Mr Tickle

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I do wonder who the next cab off the rank is.

Say Byrne (touch wood) gets a knock tomorrow, whose called up to Ireland camp as 3rd OH?

Do they go with the likes of Murray/ Cooney covering 10?

Possibly Bleyendaal or even Burns?

Yeah it's a weird one. Burns would fancy his chances. Or maybe even JJ.
another way to look at it could be Rory Scannell /Noel Reid. If we just want someone in the 22 shirt they'd cover centre well and we can put a back 3 player in 23. And if we do lose our 5th choice out half they'll do as well as anyone else.

The game against Italy was made for someone like Ross Byrne. Play a little deeper, bring in our wings a bit more with some accurate, strategic kicking and keep the forwards motoring with a shorter passing game from first off the ruck.

We just need to live with France for 20 minutes while they blow their load and then capitalise as their error count rises. Hopefully we'll take it to them from the off but I've little fear of them especially away from home.

arsebiscuits1

Deleted User wrote: »

The game against Italy was made for someone like Ross Byrne. Play a little deeper, bring in our wings a bit more with some accurate, strategic kicking and keep the forwards motoring with a shorter passing game from first off the ruck.

We just need to live with France for 20 minutes while they blow their load and then capitalise as their error count rises. Hopefully we'll take it to them from the off but I've little fear of them especially away from home.

I thought Carty did very well tbh.

We lost our entire backline shape really once Bundee went off. Has Farrell played at 12 since arriving back on these shores? And Earls just isn't a top tier international 13.

I'm not sure Byrne would have done any better than Carty