Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

kingofthekong

Regarding O'mahony he shouldn't he anywhere near that Ireland team, simply not good enough had zero impact in any game I've seen him in in over a year a couple pro14 performances aside he doesn't add enough value to be in the team, doesn't matter the fan fair and memes he has on social media he's simply an inferior player to our other backrows

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Regarding O'mahony he shouldn't he anywhere near that Ireland team, simply not good enough had zero impact in any game I've seen him in in over a year a couple pro14 performances aside he doesn't add enough value to be in the team, doesn't matter the fan fair and memes he has on social media he's simply an inferior player to our other backrows

It's a shame you missed the NZ game last November.

Utopia Parkway

Not a Leinster fan and I like POM but he's been completely anonymous in a number of big games recently. He's not a great ball carrier obviously but unless he's nicking lineouts or winning turnovers he's at nothing. Even his tackle stats are not great. There is definitely a decision to be made there now as regards his Ireland spot.

Shefwedfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How is regularly having the least amount of tackles in the forwards high level performance? Having no impact carrying the ball, or being involved as a link man?

I find it curious that folks have rightly pointed out that Beirne shouldn't travel to the WC, due to his lack of impact in big games. Yet POM gets lauded for being "the best 6 in the world", despite having an equally limited impact.

People might claim it's blatant blue tinted bias, but if POM was A.N. Other, he wouldn't get within an asses roar of the Leinster team, let alone the Irish one.

I’m not sure who has ever said POM is the best 6 in the World?

I’m not getting into the slagging of POM, I think he will start in WC. That has been on the cards since we lost Heaslip. If Pom starts then VDF drops out and they have Conan and Standar.

Also that rules out Beirne so best option is Henderson and Ryan. POM and Beirne are too similar and it has been shown with both in the team they can get bullied

The question is to you bring Beirne as he covers a number of positions? Or bring Dillane/Roux and have hendo to cover

troyzer

It wasn't so long ago that POM was a bench player for Ireland. Heaslip was our unquestionably best number 8 and Stander was too good to leave out of the starting lineup.

There's no reason why we can't have a repeat of this with Conan. He's really, really, really excellent this year. Consistently brilliant and I doubt many people are arguing against his inclusion in the XV. At the start of the season we were doubting he would get on the plane.

As far as Beirne goes, he's been neutralised a lot at Munster. But if you take the rose tinted glasses off for a minute you'd remember how effectively Leinster completely took him out of the game in the semi final last year. There has been a blue print to stop him for a while, you just have to be really good to do it. The problem is that pretty much any top test side and most top European sides are good enough.

Which is why he's excellent against weaker teams and can disappear in the big games. He doesn't get on the plane for me.

I'm not sure POM has ever been a bench player for Ireland. It took him a little while to break back into the team after his injury in the RWC but apart from that spell he's been first choice for Schmidt's entire tenure, he's in the leadership group, etc. When he plays like yesterday he just doesn't offer very much, but I've little doubt he'll stay in the team. Stander has to go though.

BoardsMember

If people are adamant that Conan and Stander are nailed on for Ireland back row, then I would have VdF as the third all day long, now way I'd consider having POM in as 7 ahead of him.

For me, based on POM form, I'd prefer to have Ruddock on bench ahead of POM if that was the choice being considered, but I'm a self confessed massive Ruddock fan.

troyzer

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

I'm not sure POM has ever been a bench player for Ireland. It took him a little while to break back into the team after his injury in the RWC but apart from that spell he's been first choice for Schmidt's entire tenure, he's in the leadership group, etc. When he plays like yesterday he just doesn't offer very much, but I've little doubt he'll stay in the team. Stander has to go though.

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

Burkie1203

troyzer wrote: »

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

He was out for a year after the RWC

Bazzo

troyzer wrote: »

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

Definitely still injured. Think he spent the guts of a year out

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

The only thing that has had him out of the team is that injury, being actually unavailable or getting back up to speed after a year out. I don't think he played a single game in the entire 15/16 season.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

It wasn't so long ago that POM was a bench player for Ireland. Heaslip was our unquestionably best number 8 and Stander was too good to leave out of the starting lineup.

There's no reason why we can't have a repeat of this with Conan. He's really, really, really excellent this year. Consistently brilliant and I doubt many people are arguing against his inclusion in the XV. At the start of the season we were doubting he would get on the plane.

As far as Beirne goes, he's been neutralised a lot at Munster. But if you take the rose tinted glasses off for a minute you'd remember how effectively Leinster completely took him out of the game in the semi final last year. There has been a blue print to stop him for a while, you just have to be really good to do it. The problem is that pretty much any top test side and most top European sides are good enough.

Which is why he's excellent against weaker teams and can disappear in the big games. He doesn't get on the plane for me.

He got MOTM in both Exeter games and the Leinster game in Thomond. Three of Munster's biggest games all year. He can struggle against the absolute top tier, but lets not pretend he's a Pro14 dirt-tracker either.

troyzer

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

The only thing that has had him out of the team is that injury, being actually unavailable or getting back up to speed after a year out. I don't think he played a single game in the entire 15/16 season.

Fair enough and the season after?

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

Fair enough and the season after?

Why are you asking me to repeat myself for the third time?

Former Former

POM was left out when Stander, SOB and Heaslip were all available in 2016-17. Stander was playing his best ever rugby in a green jersey and was right preferred.

Other than that, he's been nailed on for all of Joe's regime and I'd be very surprised if he's not starting at the RWC.

yerrahbah

And is captain when Rory Best is absent

troyzer

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Fair enough and the season after?

Why are you asking me to repeat myself for the third time?

I'm not. You've explained why he didn't play in the 2016 Six Nations. I said in my comment I wasn't sure if he was still injured and he was, grand.

That was six months after the world cup. So what about another 12 months on when he was on the bench in the 2017 Six Nations watching Heaslip, Stander and O'Brien start?

I said it wasn't long ago that O'Mahony was on the bench because he couldn't get past Stander. Well, that was true. What changed was Heaslip getting his injury, Stander moving to 8 and POM getting into the XV. And it's been that way ever since with the 7 jersey changing hands.

What I'm saying is that there was a time in recent history where POM was not getting a start because he wasn't good enough. I'm suggesting that we remember that and stop lionising him like he came out of the womb in a green Jersey.

thomond2006

POM was injured at the start of the 2017 Six Nations and didn't even feature for Munster during the international period. He came off the bench against Wales and France. He was a late callup to start the final game against England, won MOTM and got onto the plane to NZ.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

POM was injured at the start of the 2017 Six Nations and didn't even feature for Munster during the international period. He was a late callup to start the final game against England, won MOTM and got onto the plane to NZ.

Did he not bench against France and Wales?

He was class against England. Everyone was in that game though, they were a team possessed by a singular desire to piss in James Haskell's cornflakes.

thomond2006

troyzer wrote: »

Did he not bench against France and Wales?

He was class against England. Everyone was in that game though, they were a team possessed by a singular desire to piss in James Haskell's cornflakes.

Yup, edited.

It's possible he was coming back into full match fitness. Anyway that was two years ago. Now he's a key member of the starting XV. I'm amazed he's being discussed after yesterday, for me he was quite effective despite an early knock.

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

POM was injured at the start of the 2017 Six Nations and didn't even feature for Munster during the international period. He came off the bench against Wales and France. He was a late callup to start the final game against England, won MOTM and got onto the plane to NZ.

To be fair. He then went to New Zealand. Started the first test and dropped out of the squad completely for the other two tests. Still firmly behind Stander and O'brien.

thebaz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But he constantlys picked and doesnt need to do anything to game when its all part of unit and others are doing their share

I would think he would really want to up his game post Christmas , if he wants to start for Ireland WC , on merit , just cause he's always picked doesn't make his selection the right call . - I would like to see van derFlier, Conan, and CJ at 6 as our starting backrow - (provided CJ himself ups his game after summer rest.

is_that_so

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Not a Leinster fan and I like POM but he's been completely anonymous in a number of big games recently. He's not a great ball carrier obviously but unless he's nicking lineouts or winning turnovers he's at nothing. Even his tackle stats are not great. There is definitely a decision to be made there now as regards his Ireland spot.

I think there is a mental hangover from the 6N for quite a few players. His form has dipped as has Standers, Murray's and Sexton's. The latter pair are nailed on but in form the former do offer a squad passion, ability and workrate. I'd expect them to be on the plane unless Schmidt and co see something that is not right.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Did he not bench against France and Wales?

He was class against England. Everyone was in that game though, they were a team possessed by a singular desire to piss in James Haskell's cornflakes.

Yup, edited.

It's possible he was coming back into full match fitness. Anyway that was two years ago. Now he's a key member of the starting XV. I'm amazed he's being discussed after yesterday, for me he was quite effective despite an early knock.

You might be right, I can't remember if he was playing much with Munster leading up to it.

In the AIs though, he wasn't getting first team minutes.

I don't think he was remotely effective. It was yet another game where his team aren't going well and he disappears. It just happens too often to have him above question for the Irish first team.

People keep throwing MOTMs like they mean anything. I've seen that a few times, people defending him because he won MOTM against Scotland as if that matters. He was magnificent in November, he's had a few decent outings for Munster, a fairly dire Six Nations and he's been AWOL ever since. He's not the only one, there are a few players including guys from Leinster who are also going through a rough patch.

Here would be my form Irish XV at the moment:

1. Healy
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Toner
5. Ryan
6. Stander
7. VdF
8. Conan
9. Cooney
10. Carty
11. Stockdale
12. McCloskey
13. Farrell
14. Dave Kearney
15. Larmour

I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is the team we should put out. McCloskey and Kearney probably aren't even going. Cooney is a question mark too. But on this day, that would be the best XV in Ireland on current form.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not. You've explained why he didn't play in the 2016 Six Nations. I said in my comment I wasn't sure if he was still injured and he was, grand.

That was six months after the world cup. So what about another 12 months on when he was on the bench in the 2017 Six Nations watching Heaslip, Stander and O'Brien start?

I said it wasn't long ago that O'Mahony was on the bench because he couldn't get past Stander. Well, that was true. What changed was Heaslip getting his injury, Stander moving to 8 and POM getting into the XV. And it's been that way ever since with the 7 jersey changing hands.

What I'm saying is that there was a time in recent history where POM was not getting a start because he wasn't good enough. I'm suggesting that we remember that and stop lionising him like he came out of the womb in a green Jersey.

Suffering jaysus.

He was on the bench for part of the 2017 season because he'd come back from an extremely bad injury and was making his way back to top form. He was never going to get fit and just walk into the team. If he hadn't had the injury he never would have dropped out of the team.

troyzer

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not. You've explained why he didn't play in the 2016 Six Nations. I said in my comment I wasn't sure if he was still injured and he was, grand.

That was six months after the world cup. So what about another 12 months on when he was on the bench in the 2017 Six Nations watching Heaslip, Stander and O'Brien start?

I said it wasn't long ago that O'Mahony was on the bench because he couldn't get past Stander. Well, that was true. What changed was Heaslip getting his injury, Stander moving to 8 and POM getting into the XV. And it's been that way ever since with the 7 jersey changing hands.

What I'm saying is that there was a time in recent history where POM was not getting a start because he wasn't good enough. I'm suggesting that we remember that and stop lionising him like he came out of the womb in a green Jersey.

Suffering jaysus.

He was on the bench for part of the 2017 season because he'd come back from an extremely bad injury and was making his way back to top form. He was never going to get fit and just walk into the team. If he hadn't had the injury he never would have dropped out of the team.

I honestly don't think that's true. He was back for the 2016 AIs. So he was healthy in November at least. Did he have a second injury between then and the Six Nations? I don't remember it anyway.

He couldn't get back in straight away because everyone playing was better than him.

His injury of course put him out for a while but this was at the same time as Stander getting his call up.

thomond2006

troyzer wrote: »

I honestly don't think that's true. He was back for the 2016 AIs. So he was healthy in November at least. Did he have a second injury between then and the Six Nations? I don't remember it anyway.

He couldn't get back in straight away because everyone playing was better than him.

His injury of course put him out for a while but this was at the same time as Stander getting his call up.

Yes.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/884584/
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/38809302

Took me a minute to look up. You can do the same before saying something isn't true.

Edit: Jaysus that sounds a lot more bitchy on review. My bad.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I honestly don't think that's true. He was back for the 2016 AIs. So he was healthy in November at least. Did he have a second injury between then and the Six Nations? I don't remember it anyway.

He couldn't get back in straight away because everyone playing was better than him.

His injury of course put him out for a while but this was at the same time as Stander getting his call up.

Yes.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/884584/
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/38809302

Took me a minute to look up. You can do the same before saying something isn't true.

Fair enough. How long was he out for?

It was suggested that he was working back to fitness from a bad injury. That's what I was questioning. Stander just broke his face and came straight back into the starting team.

There are injuries and there are injuries.

He wasn't starting in November and he wasn't starting in the Six Nations. Are you saying both times it was because he was coming back from an injury that meant he wasn't in form?

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

I would think he would really want to up his game post Christmas, if he wants to start for Ireland WC, on merit, just cause he's always picked doesn't make his selection the right call. - I would like to see van derFlier, Conan, and CJ at 6 as our starting backrow - (provided CJ himself ups his game after summer rest.

So you want the team picked on merit... but he's constantly picked... he's picked to carry out a specific role. He does that. Thats what he's there to do. I dont see why he shouldnt be picked as you lose something considerably from lineout with a backrow of VDF/Conan/CJ compared to POM and 2 others when the lineout is essential to platform for Ireland more than anything else.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

He wasn't starting in November and he wasn't starting in the Six Nations. Are you saying both times it was because he was coming back from an injury that meant he wasn't in form?

Yes, this is painfully obvious to anyone who looks at his Ireland career as a whole.

troyzer

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

He wasn't starting in November and he wasn't starting in the Six Nations. Are you saying both times it was because he was coming back from an injury that meant he wasn't in form?

Yes, this is painfully obvious to anyone who looks at his Ireland career as a whole.

If that's the case then maybe I just have a fuzzy memory.

Either way, I still wouldn't be starting him. Losing him as a lineout option is tough but I don't think you can afford one dimensional players, even if they're excellent at it.

thomond2006

troyzer wrote: »

Fair enough. How long was he out for?

It was suggested that he was working back to fitness from a bad injury. That's what I was questioning. Stander just broke his face and came straight back into the starting team.

There are injuries and there are injuries.

He wasn't starting in November and he wasn't starting in the Six Nations. Are you saying both times it was because he was coming back from an injury that meant he wasn't in form?

I'm not willing to put more time into this tbh. It's two years ago and not relevant to now. The info is available for you to research.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Fair enough. How long was he out for?

It was suggested that he was working back to fitness from a bad injury. That's what I was questioning. Stander just broke his face and came straight back into the starting team.

There are injuries and there are injuries.

He wasn't starting in November and he wasn't starting in the Six Nations. Are you saying both times it was because he was coming back from an injury that meant he wasn't in form?

I'm not willing to put more time into this tbh. It's two years ago and not relevant to now. The info is available for you to research.

Two years isn't relevent to now? It's basically yesterday.

I don't have to research anything. All I said was that there was a time in the recent past where POM was on the bench because other players were better. This is a factual assertion, no research required.

The reason why he wasn't better and the nitty gritty of injury is something that someone else introduced. It's not up to me to back it up.

Erik Shun

troyzer wrote: »

Two years isn't relevent to now? It's basically yesterday.

I don't have to research anything. All I said was that there was a time in the recent past where POM was on the bench because other players were better. This is a factual assertion, no research required.

The reason why he wasn't better and the nitty gritty of injury is something that someone else introduced. It's not up to me to back it up.

An opinion is not a factual assertion

thomond2006

troyzer wrote: »

Two years isn't relevent to now? It's basically yesterday.

I don't have to research anything. All I said was that there was a time in the recent past where POM was on the bench because other players were better. This is a factual assertion, no research required.

The reason why he wasn't better and the nitty gritty of injury is something that someone else introduced. It's not up to me to back it up.

Calling other players better is a fact?

Former Former

Round and round we go

He was left out for a brief period when he had been out for a while and we had three undroppable players in situ.

Once a gap opened up, with Heaslip getting injured, he was back in and has stayed there since.

What is the actual disagreement?

thebaz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So you want the team picked on merit... but he's constantly picked... he's picked to carry out a specific role. He does that. Thats what he's there to do. I dont see why he shouldnt be picked as you lose something considerably from lineout with a backrow of VDF/Conan/CJ compared to POM and 2 others when the lineout is essential to platform for Ireland more than anything else.

of course I want any team picked on merit - is POM only being picked solely for his lineout ability ? - just find it frustraing that a player who can perform at such a high level can not do it consistently - perhaps he too will come back rested after summer and can deliver the performances I and most would expect. at his best POM is a first teamer starter , but he has not been at that level post Christmas.

troyzer

Erik Shun wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Two years isn't relevent to now? It's basically yesterday.

I don't have to research anything. All I said was that there was a time in the recent past where POM was on the bench because other players were better. This is a factual assertion, no research required.

The reason why he wasn't better and the nitty gritty of injury is something that someone else introduced. It's not up to me to back it up.

An opinion is not a factual assertion

It's a fact. He was on the bench against Wales and France.

People are benched against top teams because there are better options ahead of them.

The reason why the options ahead of him were better is a seperate discussion. All I said was that it wasn't long ago when POM was available and not the starting 6 for Ireland. This is a simple fact. In the 2016 AIs and 2017 Six Nations he was not a starter. This was, coincidentally or not, the only time when POM, Stander and Heaslip were all playing for Ireland at the same time. All I'm saying is that it's not a coincidence. That part isn't a fact, its an opinion. But POM being a bench player at the time is a fact.

sydthebeat

troyzer wrote: »

It's a fact. He was on the bench against Wales and France.

People are benched against top teams because there are better options ahead of them.

The reason why the options ahead of him were better is a seperate discussion. All I said was that it wasn't long ago when POM was available and not the starting 6 for Ireland. This is a simple fact. In the 2016 AIs and 2017 Six Nations he was not a starter. This was, coincidentally or not, the only time when POM, Stander and Heaslip were all playing for Ireland at the same time. All I'm saying is that it's not a coincidence. That part isn't a fact, its an opinion. But POM being a bench player at the time is a fact.

Exactly like the way Sexton benched yesterday as Ross Byrne is a better player.

Theres no other possible reason that a better player would bench when available.

troyzer

sydthebeat wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

It's a fact. He was on the bench against Wales and France.

People are benched against top teams because there are better options ahead of them.

The reason why the options ahead of him were better is a seperate discussion. All I said was that it wasn't long ago when POM was available and not the starting 6 for Ireland. This is a simple fact. In the 2016 AIs and 2017 Six Nations he was not a starter. This was, coincidentally or not, the only time when POM, Stander and Heaslip were all playing for Ireland at the same time. All I'm saying is that it's not a coincidence. That part isn't a fact, its an opinion. But POM being a bench player at the time is a fact.

Exactly like the way Sexton benched yesterday as Ross Byrne is a better player.

Theres no other possible reason that a better player would bench when available.

Well I did say against top teams........

Erik Shun

troyzer wrote: »

Well I did say against top teams........

France....

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

I don't have to research anything. All I said was that there was a time in the recent past where POM was on the bench because other players were better. This is a factual assertion, no research required.

You're taking selection as definitive proof that one player is better than another. Using your own logic, if POM continues to get picked at 6 then he is a better player than the alternatives.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I don't have to research anything. All I said was that there was a time in the recent past where POM was on the bench because other players were better. This is a factual assertion, no research required.

You're taking selection as definitive proof that one player is better than another. Following this to it's logical conclusion, if POM continues to get picked at 6 then he is a better player than the alternatives.

In Joe's mind anyway, yeah.

But there was a time recently where he didn't consider POM the best. This is all speculation but I think he's going to give the Stander, VdF and Conan trio a go in at least one of the warm up games.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

In Joe's mind anyway, yeah.

But there was a time recently where he didn't consider POM the best. This is all speculation but I think he's going to give the Stander, VdF and Conan trio a go in at least one of the warm up games.

Precisely. But that's not what you said. You were stating it as fact. When it was, solely, opinion. And that's fine. But don't try to frame it as fact.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

In Joe's mind anyway, yeah.

But there was a time recently where he didn't consider POM the best. This is all speculation but I think he's going to give the Stander, VdF and Conan trio a go in at least one of the warm up games.

Precisely. But that's not what you said. You were stating it as fact. When it was, solely, opinion. And that's fine. But don't try to frame it as fact.

I think you're getting bogged down in semantics now. If Joe shows he has better options, he has better options. It's a fact.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

I think you're getting bogged down in semantics now. If Joe shows he has better options, he has better options. It's a fact.

Therefore, as POM keeps getting selected, he's better then the alternatives. It's a fact. In which case, what are you complaining for? You've defeated your own argument.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I think you're getting bogged down in semantics now. If Joe shows he has better options, he has better options. It's a fact.

Therefore, as POM keeps getting selected, he's better then the alternatives. It's a fact. In which case, what are you complaining for? You've defeated your own argument.

Yes, it is. And what I'm saying is that going forwards, I think we're going to see a change. And that people shouldn't be too surprised if it does because recently, Schmidt didn't rate him enough to start.

That's basically all I was saying.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

Yes, it is. And what I'm saying is that going forwards, I think we're going to see a change. And that people shouldn't be too surprised if it does because recently, Schmidt didn't rate him enough to start.

That's basically all I was saying.

That's fine for going forward. Except I'm sure I can find plenty of posts where POM was in the starting 15 when you were calling for an alternative. Your criteria and logic just isn't consistent.

Anyways, I think I've made my point at this stage.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Yes, it is. And what I'm saying is that going forwards, I think we're going to see a change. And that people shouldn't be too surprised if it does because recently, Schmidt didn't rate him enough to start.

That's basically all I was saying.

That's fine for going forward. Except I'm sure I can find plenty of posts where POM was in the starting 15 when you were calling for an alternative. Your criteria and logic just isn't consistent.

Anyways, I think I've made my point at this stage.

As have I.

AbusesToilets

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I’m not sure who has ever said POM is the best 6 in the World?

I’m not getting into the slagging of POM, I think he will start in WC. That has been on the cards since we lost Heaslip. If Pom starts then VDF drops out and they have Conan and Standar.

Also that rules out Beirne so best option is Henderson and Ryan. POM and Beirne are too similar and it has been shown with both in the team they can get bullied

The question is to you bring Beirne as he covers a number of positions? Or bring Dillane/Roux and have hendo to cover

That was a regular discussion point after his excellent performance against NZ.

I don't think anyone is slagging POM in this thread. He's not playing well enough to warrant being picked imo. Likewise with Stander, as with SOB. There are players who are in better form, and who are more complete players. Perhaps it's a symptom of Munster's set up, that both of the them haven't developed more, but in comparison to their peers, they lag far behind as rugby players.

POM at the moment is excellent as a defensive lineout jumper, and for the occasional steal. Stander is happy to run into walls all day long. That's not enough anymore.