Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

troyzer

jm08 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I think you're being a little too strong in your criticism but ultimately if you didn't have to worry about the past or captaincy, I don't think anyone would honestly pick POM.

Cue the Munster fans throwing out MOTM mentions like they mean something.

How come POM was a nominee for Player's Player of the Year (along with Ryan, Beirne and Jack Carthy)?

I have no idea. Genuinely.

I mean, he's a great leader and team player who always sticks up for his teammates. He's also had a handful of exceptional performances earlier in the season.

But he's not playing very well the last six months.

kingofthekong

Shefwedfan wrote: »

SOB has shown some good form recently. I still wouldnt start him.



I think he is actually a great option of the bench. Team will be tired and he will be fully fit.


I just dont think he is fit for a full 80 mins against a Tier 1 international team anymore. But give him 20 mins against a tired Tier 1 team and that is a different ball game.....

Disagree hes just not good enough or effective enough against the top teams, if we want to compete this year O'brien shouldnt be there, we saw him against saracens which is similar to a pack we would face in the six nations and he didnt make the ganline once and when he did get the ball he got smashed and slowed down the speed of the attack

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

How come POM was a nominee for Player's Player of the Year (along with Ryan, Beirne and Jack Carthy)?

POM could walk out onto the pitch, lie down and not move for the entire 80 mins and you would still have some section of fans/media etc telling you about how great a game he had


As I posted above, on another forum with a huge Irish fan base I got hammered for questioning his form, I was told he was the best player for Ireland in 6 nations and was undroppable....

Shefwedfan

kingofthekong wrote: »

Disagree hes just not good enough or effective enough against the top teams, if we want to compete this year O'brien shouldnt be there, we saw him against saracens which is similar to a pack we would face in the six nations and he didnt make the ganline once and when he did get the ball he got smashed and slowed down the speed of the attack

Against Toulouse he was very effective. He has some decent form.



He played well against Saracens but got that bang in the back and should have been taken off after that.....


Off the bench when a team is tired he would be effective. We need game changers off the bench and SOB could be one.....swapping on VDF for POM is not going to make a huge bang

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

kingofthekong wrote: »

Disagree hes just not good enough or effective enough against the top teams, if we want to compete this year O'brien shouldnt be there, we saw him against saracens which is similar to a pack we would face in the six nations and he didnt make the ganline once and when he did get the ball he got smashed and slowed down the speed of the attack

Against Toulouse he was very effective. He has some decent form.



He played well against Saracens but got that bang in the back and should have been taken off after that.....


Off the bench when a team is tired he would be effective. We need game changers off the bench and SOB could be one.....swapping on VDF for POM is not going to make a huge bang

SOB is battling with Nordi for the last spot I'd say.

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

I agree. I do think the contract extension throws a little wrinkle in there. If there's good news you'd imagine he'd want to share it.

It's certainly not something I'd ask about, I hope he's looked after either way

Leinster always announce their contract extensions en masse, but it is not related to when they are actually done. He could easily have had his contract extended before his injury. I wouldn't read anything into it at all.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

SOB is battling with Nordi for the last spot I'd say.

Come on now. He will travel.


He is 4 months injury free now. If he stays fit now then he will be 7-8 months back and training.


That will mean he will travels in good condition.



Nordi and Ruddock are in a battle. SOB is not once he is fit

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

SOB is battling with Nordi for the last spot I'd say.

Come on now. He will travel.


He is 4 months injury free now. If he stays fit now then he will be 7-8 months back and training.


That will mean he will travels in good condition.



Nordi and Ruddock are in a battle. SOB is not once he is fit

Who does he replace? Have a look at the squad I guessed on the previous page.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

I doubt much is going to change on Saturday in terms of pecking order so here would be my guess at the 31 man squad going into the summer:

Props: Healy, Furlong, Kilcoyne, Porter and Ryan.

Hooker: Best, Cronin, Scannell.

Locks: Toner, Ryan, Henderson and Dillane.

Backrow: VdF, POM, Stander, Conan and Nordi.

Halfbacks: Murray, Sexton, Carty, Carbery and Cooney.

Centres: Ringrose, Henshaw, Farrell, Aki.

Outside backs: Kearney, Larmour, Earls, Stockdale and Conway.

Harsh on Jack McGrath and Tadhg Beirne but neither of them are playing well enough. Beirne especially just seems to not show up against big teams. Nordi might lose his spot to SOB if he trains well and shows up in the warmups. Carty and Cooney are ahead of Byrne and McGrath/Marmion. Though I can see Marmion going instead of Cooney because of his experience.

Chris Farrell is fairly nailed on for me. His gain is Will Addison's loss. Conway could easily loss his spot in the warm ups to someone like Dave Kearney who I think is playing better rugby.

This one^

I haven't figured out how to multiquote on mobile.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

Who does he replace? Have a look at the squad I guessed on the previous page.

In reality if you look at the back row options you have


Backrow: VdF, POM, Stander, Conan and Nordi.


It's between Nordi and VDF as who gets final spot

AbusesToilets

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In reality if you look at the back row options you have


Backrow: VdF, POM, Stander, Conan and Nordi.


It's between Nordi and VDF as who gets final spot

VdF is as nailed on as Jesus on Good Friday. Last spot is likely between Ruddock, Nordi and SOB. I'd take Ruddock there, given he can cover 2nd row as well, but Nordi is a quality option too.

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Who does he replace? Have a look at the squad I guessed on the previous page.

In reality if you look at the back row options you have


Backrow: VdF, POM, Stander, Conan and Nordi.


It's between Nordi and VDF as who gets final spot

You seriously think VdF (our best openside) is left on the periphery while SOB saunters in? Based on what? That would be mental.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

You seriously think VdF (our best openside) is left on the periphery while SOB saunters in? Based on what? That would be mental.

You are getting mixed up with what I think and what Joe thinks.


Presonally I would have

Backrow: VdF, Stander, Conan, SOB and Nordi.


Then I would bring Beirne in second row, drop Dillane, so if a POM player required then bring in Beirne. Then have a few players like POM, Dillane etc be on holiday somewhere very close by....

This is not what Joe will pick.

Joe will go for

Backrow: SOB, POM, Stander, Conan and JVF/Nordi.

The one advantage, last WC you could name the squad. Now if we do have an injury at least we have some decent back up. Even the SA lad said it yesterday that Ireland in the qtr last time had too many injuries

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

You seriously think VdF (our best openside) is left on the periphery while SOB saunters in? Based on what? That would be mental.

You are getting mixed up with what I think and what Joe thinks.


Presonally I would have

Backrow: VdF, Stander, Conan, SOB and Nordi.


Then I would bring Beirne in second row, drop Dillane, so if a POM player required then bring in Beirne. Then have a few players like POM, Dillane etc be on holiday somewhere very close by....

This is not what Joe will pick.

Joe will go for

Backrow: SOB, POM, Stander, Conan and JVF/Nordi.

The one advantage, last WC you could name the squad. Now if we do have an injury at least we have some decent back up. Even the SA lad said it yesterday that Ireland in the qtr last time had too many injuries

Hang on, POM doesn't even make the plane for you?

Exclamation Marc

troyzer wrote: »

You seriously think VdF (our best openside) is left on the periphery while SOB saunters in? Based on what? That would be mental.

100%.VdF started against New Zealand, England and France in the last 8 months. He's clearly Joe's pick for the big games at 7. O'Brien only started against Italy and Scotland (and against Wales but VdF was injured at that point).

And no chance of POM not making the plane absent of injury.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

Hang on, POM doesn't even make the plane for you?

It's POM or Nordi....


I am still undecided. I think injury will make the decision as I would expect at least 1 injury before WC and one during WC


We need impactsub off the bench and SOB has that written all over him, if he can stay fit

Exclamation Marc

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's POM or Nordi....


I am still undecided. I think injury will make the decision as I would expect at least 1 injury before WC and one during WC


We need impactsub off the bench and SOB has that written all over him, if he can stay fit

SOB doesn't have the impact anymore, bench or starting. Even as a die hard Leinster fan, I'd take any of the aforementioned off the bench over SOB, his barnstorming days are far behind him and he's shown no evidence otherwise for Ireland or Leinster this year.

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

POM could walk out onto the pitch, lie down and not move for the entire 80 mins and you would still have some section of fans/media etc telling you about how great a game he had


As I posted above, on another forum with a huge Irish fan base I got hammered for questioning his form, I was told he was the best player for Ireland in 6 nations and was undroppable....

Its not just munster fans or media, its his fellow players from all four provinces who rate him. Its Joe Schmidt. Do you know more than they know? Out of about 120 players, he was shortlisted to last 4.

irishbucsfan

Who gives a **** what people would think about POM if he did nothing for 80 minutes. He doesn’t do nothing for 80 minutes. He was man of the match against New Zealand for being the best forward on the park and making absolutely essential turnovers against one of the best packs to ever play in Dublin. Anyone who doesn’t think he should be in an Ireland squad is certifiably insane.

troyzer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who gives a **** what people would think about POM if he did nothing for 80 minutes. He doesn’t do nothing for 80 minutes. He was man of the match against New Zealand for being the best forward on the park and making absolutely essential turnovers against one of the best packs to ever play in Dublin. Anyone who doesn’t think he should be in an Ireland squad is certifiably insane.

He was great against New Zealand and I agree that to leave him out of the squad would be mental.

I don't think he's good enough at the moment to make the 23 though

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

Its not just munster fans or media, its his fellow players from all four provinces who rate him. Its Joe Schmidt. Do you know more than they know? Out of about 120 players, he was shortlisted to last 4.

I already said he would travel and he would start....maybe read that...If you read the posts I have him at 7 with Standar and Conan playing with him....


Standard aggresive post from same people. When did I say I know more?



As per all my posts I have said personal/joe opinion etc.

Shefwedfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who gives a **** what people would think about POM if he did nothing for 80 minutes. He doesn’t do nothing for 80 minutes. He was man of the match against New Zealand for being the best forward on the park and making absolutely essential turnovers against one of the best packs to ever play in Dublin. Anyone who doesn’t think he should be in an Ireland squad is certifiably insane.

As per my posts I said he would travel and start for the big games....

Exclamation Marc

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As per my posts I said he would travel and start for the big games....

Well then people are responding to your opinion which is;

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Then I would bring Beirne in second row, drop Dillane, so if a POM player required then bring in Beirne. Then have a few players like POM, Dillane etc be on holiday somewhere very close by....

You can't express two opinions and then get uppity when one is challenged. And unless you are Joe Schmidt, it's two opinions.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As per my posts I said he would travel and start for the big games....

Which, you said, was Joe's opinion. You also said you don't think he should travel. Which is your opinion. And a ridiculous one at that.

irishbucsfan

troyzer wrote: »

He was great against New Zealand and I agree that to leave him out of the squad would be mental.

I don't think he's good enough at the moment to make the 23 though

What 23?

Faugheen

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who gives a **** what people would think about POM if he did nothing for 80 minutes. He doesn’t do nothing for 80 minutes. He was man of the match against New Zealand for being the best forward on the park and making absolutely essential turnovers against one of the best packs to ever play in Dublin. Anyone who doesn’t think he should be in an Ireland squad is certifiably insane.

When you think about the dogs abuse Heaslip got for years then that point is a bit redundant.

For the record, people talk about impact off the bench, I think I'd much rather POM than SOB

Mr Tickle

*ahem*
https://www.the42.ie/pro14-dream-team-nominations-4646796-May2019/

sydthebeat

Mr Tickle wrote: »

*ahem*
https://www.the42.ie/pro14-dream-team-nominations-4646796-May2019/

reads like a "best of the rest" kinda list......

Exclamation Marc

Nucifora has signed a new deal to stay with the IRFU until 2022.

irishbucsfan

Faugheen wrote: »

When you think about the dogs abuse Heaslip got for years then that point is a bit redundant.

For the record, people talk about impact off the bench, I think I'd much rather POM than SOB

People were wrong for years about Heaslip. How does that make anything redundant?

AbusesToilets

Faugheen wrote: »

When you think about the dogs abuse Heaslip got for years then that point is a bit redundant.

For the record, people talk about impact off the bench, I think I'd much rather POM than SOB

In what capacity though? He's not going to break out with a massive bust, he's unlikely to grab a raft of turnovers, nor tackle the opposition to a standstill.

Heaslip got abuse because he wasn't making big breaks, but he had the stats to show he was making a massive contribution elsewhere. Far superior player in fairness.

Faugheen

AbusesToilets wrote: »

In what capacity though? He's not going to break out with a massive bust, he's unlikely to grab a raft of turnovers, nor tackle the opposition to a standstill.

Heaslip got abuse because he wasn't making big breaks, but he had the stats to show he was making a massive contribution elsewhere. Far superior player in fairness.

Because if you have a fresh POM coming as teams are getting tired, I'd like to think he'd have an impact on the ground.

I could well be wrong but I reckon he'd do really well off the bench

Leinstertomas

Faugheen wrote: »

Because if you have a fresh POM coming as teams are getting tired, I'd like to think he'd have an impact on the ground.

I could well be wrong but I reckon he'd do really well off the bench

Yeah I remember him coming on after around 60 minutes in the win against Australia in 2016 and making an impact

Dubinusa

I'd like to see Ruddock make it! I think he offers more physicality than any other 6 we have. VDF will make it, barring injury. Nordi is so flexible and covers the entire br! That could be crucial.
The balance is very important and this will be the last rwc for a lot of these lads. J.S has his mitts full.

kingofthekong

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In reality if you look at the back row options you have


Backrow: VdF, POM, Stander, Conan and Nordi.


It's between Nordi and VDF as who gets final spot

it absolutely is not , VDF is the first guy Joe schmidt is writing down on the starting xv in the backrow,

He is by far the best 7 we have available and its not even close

kingofthekong

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who gives a **** what people would think about POM if he did nothing for 80 minutes. He doesn’t do nothing for 80 minutes. He was man of the match against New Zealand for being the best forward on the park and making absolutely essential turnovers against one of the best packs to ever play in Dublin. Anyone who doesn’t think he should be in an Ireland squad is certifiably insane.

He'll be on the plane, but that game was along time ago and hes been ****e since

kingofthekong

kingofthekong wrote: »

He'll be on the plane, but that game was along time ago and hes been ****e since

He hasn't been ****e since but a lot of players seemed to peak pre Christmas and then somewhat switched off mid season. I think the RWC is a big part in this mindset but I feel somewhere in the background something might be amiss with the provinces / IRFU in some way or just the players themselves.

I think there is definitely something rotten afoot in Munster and I think it's potentially related to the coaching ticket.

Leinster will pound Glasgow this weekend and then everyone goes away for a few weeks and I think that's a good thing. It's going to be an intense build up.

All_in_Flynn

I’m also in the camp of this year being solely about the World Cup and sacrificing everything else so players arrive at peak physical condition.

We showed absolutely nothing during the 6 nations. Nothing. We looked good v France as all we had to do was play territory against them. Think we showed one or two old set piece moves the whole tournament. It’s all in the bank.

The fact Sexton etc was playing at start of pro 14 this year strengthens my beliefs further. We have peaked too early before and I think everyone in IRFU recognises that this is our chance. I’d go further and state that Joe/IRFU have been planning players peaks and troughs for the last 2 years. We have a winnable group and a winnable quarter.

I’m not buying this “we have been figured out” craic at all.

Get through Saturday with, touch wood, no serious injuries and then get a good rest into everyone before camp.

I think we will show up at World Cup in peak condition and shape and unrecognisable to the team that played in 6 nations.

All in my opinion of course.

troyzer

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

I’m also in the camp of this year being solely about the World Cup and sacrificing everything else so players arrive at peak physical condition.

We showed absolutely nothing during the 6 nations. Nothing. We looked good v France as all we had to do was play territory against them. Think we showed one or two old set piece moves the whole tournament. It’s all in the bank.

The fact Sexton etc was playing at start of pro 14 this year strengthens my beliefs further. We have peaked too early before and I think everyone in IRFU recognises that this is our chance. I’d go further and state that Joe/IRFU have been planning players peaks and troughs for the last 2 years. We have a winnable group and a winnable quarter.

I’m not buying this “we have been figured out” craic at all.

Get through Saturday with, touch wood, no serious injuries and then get a good rest into everyone before camp.

I think we will show up at World Cup in peak condition and shape and unrecognisable to the team that played in 6 nations.

All in my opinion of course.

I hope you're right. There are even a few non Irish rugby experts who are sceptical about Ireland's decline and think it's part of the master plan.

All_in_Flynn

troyzer wrote: »

I hope you're right. There are even a few non Irish rugby experts who are sceptical about Ireland's decline and think it's part of the master plan.

I hope I’m right too.

I just cannot foresee a scenario where somebody as meticulous as joe etc is for this not to be the case. Lessons have been learned from 2015. Squad is bigger and in a position to cope better than we did previously with injuries. I think second piece of that puzzle was to ensure we are peaking and third was to save our best stuff for when it matters.

Queue a BP loss to the Scots.....

Bazzo

Am I the only one that remembers basically the exact same talk before the last world cup? Schmidt is keeping his cards tight to his chest, all the new moves will be unveiled in the world cup etc...

bilston

Bazzo wrote: »

Am I the only one that remembers basically the exact same talk before the last world cup? Schmidt is keeping his cards tight to his chest, all the new moves will be unveiled in the world cup etc...

It's not the moves so much. It's more the conditioning of the players and making sure they peak in Sept/Oct rather than Feb/Mar 2019.

aloooof

Bazzo wrote: »

Am I the only one that remembers basically the exact same talk before the last world cup? Schmidt is keeping his cards tight to his chest, all the new moves will be unveiled in the world cup etc...

The schedule is different this time tho. Last time, everything built up to the French game. We were missing 5 starters the following week.

This time round, we've the most important game, Scotland up first. It's more akin to Argentina's 2015 RWC, who had NZ first up followed by a run of easier fixtures.

We've been slow starters in the past, but if we can get over the Scotland game, I think we'll be good shape. And I think we've the best man for the job in charge for it.

Podge_irl

Bazzo wrote: »

Am I the only one that remembers basically the exact same talk before the last world cup? Schmidt is keeping his cards tight to his chest, all the new moves will be unveiled in the world cup etc...

No, you're not.

It also seems a bit desperate. Has any RWC winning team ever gone in off the back of somewhat abject form because they were "holding stuff back"?

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bazzo wrote: »

Am I the only one that remembers basically the exact same talk before the last world cup? Schmidt is keeping his cards tight to his chest, all the new moves will be unveiled in the world cup etc...

No, you're not.

It also seems a bit desperate. Has any RWC winning team ever gone in off the back of somewhat abject form because they were "holding stuff back"?

I agree it's unlikely but like I said, there are outsiders who think this like Squidge rugby. I've seen a few bits in the NZ herald and British papers to the same effect. They're very dubious that Ireland went from the best team in the world to average in three months.

Yeah_Right

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, you're not.

It also seems a bit desperate. Has any RWC winning team ever gone in off the back of somewhat abject form because they were "holding stuff back"?

Don't know about holding stuff back but NZ had fairly average Tri-Nations/Championships before the last 2 RWCs. I remember a lot of "experts" predicting that they would fail. One famously called for Carter to be dropped from the 2015 squad.

I expect Ireland will be alright this tournament.

All_in_Flynn

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

I’m also in the camp of this year being solely about the World Cup and sacrificing everything else so players arrive at peak physical condition.

We showed absolutely nothing during the 6 nations. Nothing. We looked good v France as all we had to do was play territory against them. Think we showed one or two old set piece moves the whole tournament. It’s all in the bank.

The fact Sexton etc was playing at start of pro 14 this year strengthens my beliefs further. We have peaked too early before and I think everyone in IRFU recognises that this is our chance. I’d go further and state that Joe/IRFU have been planning players peaks and troughs for the last 2 years. We have a winnable group and a winnable quarter.

I’m not buying this “we have been figured out” craic at all.

Get through Saturday with, touch wood, no serious injuries and then get a good rest into everyone before camp.

I think we will show up at World Cup in peak condition and shape and unrecognisable to the team that played in 6 nations.

All in my opinion of course.

I like the optimism but this is revisionist nonsense. There's no way there was any plan for players to go through a trough. The IRFU and Joe and everyone else wanted another grand slam this year.

Former Former

Bazzo wrote: »

Am I the only one that remembers basically the exact same talk before the last world cup? Schmidt is keeping his cards tight to his chest, all the new moves will be unveiled in the world cup etc...

We won the six Nations before the last world cup. We were well off the pace in the warm ups but it didn't matter in the end, we had a decent RWC until all the injuries.

Also, it's not Joe or IRFU saying anything about holding things back. It's a random guy on an internet forum. That's an incredibly important distinction.

AbusesToilets

I can see some merit in the argument for the team hdong back somewhat. I look at a team like the Patriots, who are fairly notorious for looking poor thru the first part of the season. They treat that period as an extended preseason, working out their playing style and combinations.

The concern for me is that the team didn't look to be using the 6Ns to take that approach. The weren't new combos blooded or game styles utilised. It was more of the same, only executed less effectively.

The other issues is that key players have been in poor form to date. Murray, Sexton, Ringrose, McGrath, POM et al. We can't just assume that they can find form at the right time in a vacuum.

All_in_Flynn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I like the optimism but this is revisionist nonsense. There's no way there was any plan for players to go through a trough. The IRFU and Joe and everyone else wanted another grand slam this year.

I disagree. Whilst they may have wanted another grand slam I think they were aware that it was going to be very unlikely and in the grand scheme the World Cup was going to take precedent.