Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

irishbucsfan

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

I disagree. Whilst they may have wanted another grand slam I think they were aware that it was going to be very unlikely and in the grand scheme the World Cup was going to take precedent.

It wasn’t very unlikely until they got soundly beaten by England

All_in_Flynn

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It wasn’t very unlikely until they got soundly beaten by England

I’m not trying to comfort myself, so I can sleep better at night. I just think it’s logical. We haven’t gone from arguably the best test side in the world to being rolled over and tickled like we were in Cardiff.

Time will tell I suppose.

aloooof

I think there's 2 sides to this. We've heard the players in the past mentioning specific games that they've targeted, notably NZ in Chicago, and NZ last November.

But, even if they are targeting the RWC this year, there's absolutely no way they expected, or wanted, to be as poor as they were during the 6N. Even so, I think with this management team, it can be turned around in time for the RWC.

All_in_Flynn

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

I’m not trying to comfort myself, so I can sleep better at night. I just think it’s logical. We haven’t gone from arguably the best test side in the world to being rolled over and tickled like we were in Cardiff.

Time will tell I suppose.

No I don't think time will tell. Even if we win the world cup, that doesn't vindicate our poor performance. There was no decision to lose any games in the six nations. There was a decision to build depth in the italy game which is unusual but there was definitely one eye on the world cup in that respect. The silver lining here is that that poor performance might give us the kick up the arse that we didn't know we needed.

All_in_Flynn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No I don't think time will tell. Even if we win the world cup, that doesn't vindicate our poor performance. There was no decision to lose any games in the six nations. There was a decision to build depth in the italy game which is unusual but there was definitely one eye on the world cup in that respect. The silver lining here is that that poor performance might give us the kick up the arse that we didn't know we needed.

Hang on, nobody said there was a decision to lose games. What had been said is that there was a plan to not show any more of our hand. I think performances were worse than expected but not the be all and end all.

I don’t even think this is too hard to believe. It’s perfectly reasonable in my eyes given the nature of the sport.

cadaliac

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

I’m not trying to comfort myself, so I can sleep better at night. I just think it’s logical. We haven’t gone from arguably the best test side in the world to being rolled over and tickled like we were in Cardiff.

Time will tell I suppose.

It happened England - for about a year recently iirc

irishbucsfan

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

I’m not trying to comfort myself, so I can sleep better at night. I just think it’s logical. We haven’t gone from arguably the best test side in the world to being rolled over and tickled like we were in Cardiff.

Time will tell I suppose.

That’s exactly what happened.

Time has already told, nothing will ever change how poor they were so far this year. Unless Schmidt has time travel hidden up his sleeve.

There is a ton more in the team and I wouldn’t discount them getting back to where they were by the time September rolls around. Especially with what should be an easy group stage to build up the momentum that it appears they thrive on.

joseywhales

It turns out every team peaks for the world cup, it's possible we play well against Scotland/South Africa and still lose.

aloooof

joseywhales wrote: »

It turns out every team peaks for the world cup, it's possible we play well against Scotland/South Africa and still lose.

Rather, every team tries to peak for the world cup.

In a way, I'm dreading it. If we get knocked out at the QF stage again, you just know there'll be plenty of Ewan's looking to frame Schmidt's tenure as a failure.

joseywhales

There are people ready to that when we lose two 6n games or when leinster are not European champions, the level of expectation is out of sync with the playing numbers, professional depth etc. We should be revelling in our no doubt finite purple patch.

Former Former

aloooof wrote: »

Rather, every team tries to peak for the world cup.

In a way, I'm dreading it. If we get knocked out at the QF stage again, you just know there'll be plenty of Ewan's looking to frame Schmidt's tenure as a failure.

It won't just be the Ewans of this world, there is still a lot of anti-Joe feeling among a sizable minority of Irish rugby fans. A failure at the RWC will be gleefully received by a lot of posters here.

I find it hard to believe that the coaches want to go into the first game with Scotland thinking that we're are beatable. And that's what Scotland should be thinking.
We were rubbish in the 6 nations. No two ways about it.

troyzer

Former Former wrote: »

aloooof wrote: »

Rather, every team tries to peak for the world cup.

In a way, I'm dreading it. If we get knocked out at the QF stage again, you just know there'll be plenty of Ewan's looking to frame Schmidt's tenure as a failure.

It won't just be the Ewans of this world, there is still a lot of anti-Joe feeling among a sizable minority of Irish rugby fans. A failure at the RWC will be gleefully received by a lot of posters here.

I adore Joe and what he's doing for Irish rugby.

But ultimately, if we do lose another quarter final we'll have made zero progress under him other than beating the All Blacks twice.

Joe inherited a team which had in the recent past won a grand slam and a provincial setup which was regularly pumping out domestic and European trophies. It was also a team that kept under preforming at world cups.

If we lose against South Africa in a quarter final, he'll have left a team which in the recent past won a grand slam and a provincial setup which is regularly pumping out domestic and European trophies. It would also be a team which still keeps under preforming at world cups.

irishbucsfan

troyzer wrote: »

I adore Joe and what he's doing for Irish rugby.

But ultimately, if we do lose another quarter final we'll have made zero progress under him other than beating the All Blacks twice.

Joe inherited a team which had in the recent past won a grand slam and a provincial setup which was regularly pumping out domestic and European trophies. It was also a team that kept under preforming at world cups.

If we lose against South Africa in a quarter final, he'll have left a team which in the recent past won a grand slam and a provincial setup which is regularly pumping out domestic and European trophies. It would also be a team which still keeps under preforming at world cups.

Absolutely not. This is madness. He inherited a team who finished bottom of the 6 Nations and won the thing with them back to back and went on to win a grand slam and a tour in the Southern Hemisphere.

To say he achieved nearly no progress is absolutely crazy. He’s the most successful coach in Irish history regardless of what happens in September.

troyzer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I adore Joe and what he's doing for Irish rugby.

But ultimately, if we do lose another quarter final we'll have made zero progress under him other than beating the All Blacks twice.

Joe inherited a team which had in the recent past won a grand slam and a provincial setup which was regularly pumping out domestic and European trophies. It was also a team that kept under preforming at world cups.

If we lose against South Africa in a quarter final, he'll have left a team which in the recent past won a grand slam and a provincial setup which is regularly pumping out domestic and European trophies. It would also be a team which still keeps under preforming at world cups.

Absolutely not. This is madness. He inherited a team who finished bottom of the 6 Nations and won the thing with them back to back and went on to win a grand slam and a tour in the Southern Hemisphere.

To say he achieved nearly no progress is absolutely crazy. He’s the most successful coach in Irish history regardless of what happens in September.

I agree he'll be the most successful coach. I'm obviously under playing his achievements deliberately but it's still hard not to feel anti climactic if we do bomb out in a quarter.

joseywhales

Don't worry I'll be plenty dissapointed if we lose another qtr final but it still might happen even if we perform is all I'm saying. I couldn't look at rugby for about two months after the last one

troyzer

joseywhales wrote: »

Don't worry I'll be plenty dissapointed if we lose another qtr final but it still might happen even if we perform is all I'm saying. I couldn't look at rugby for about two months after the last one

I was living in England at the time. I delighted in their exit to no end. My house mates gave as good as they got after the Argentina game. I only watched the final after that, couldn't watch the other games. Was so gutted.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

I adore Joe and what he's doing for Irish rugby.

But ultimately, if we do lose another quarter final we'll have made zero progress under him other than beating the All Blacks twice.

Joe inherited a team which had in the recent past won a grand slam and a provincial setup which was regularly pumping out domestic and European trophies. It was also a team that kept under preforming at world cups.

If we lose against South Africa in a quarter final, he'll have left a team which in the recent past won a grand slam and a provincial setup which is regularly pumping out domestic and European trophies. It would also be a team which still keeps under preforming at world cups.

You're completely overlooking:
- Back-to-back 6 Nations.
- 3 6 Nations titles (one of which a Grand Slam)
- A Test Series win in Australia
- A Test win in South Africa
- Got to 2nd in the World.

No other coach has achieved that. It's absurd to say we've made no progress other than the 2 All Blacks victories.

Additionally, look at the team that played NZ in his first Autumn in charge. Of that team, Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, O'Connell and Heaslip have all retired. Five of our best ever players. And he's managed to continue getting results during that time.

joseywhales

Our day will come

salmocab

We could lose a quarter and be the second or third best team in the tournament, it would be a pi55er to go out at that stage again but it would need to be looked at with regards the whole tournament and how others perform

Former Former

We'll all be disappointed if we don't get to the semis this year.

It's an enormous stretch to say that if we don't, then there will have been no progress in six years.

If we get to play South Africa, they are good enough to beat anyone on their day. If we get to play New Zealand, they are good enough to beat everyone on 95% of days. If we get the sort of injuries that we got last time out, then we're absolutely screwed regardless of which of them we face.

These are things which are out of Joe's hands. If we genuinely bomb, then fair enough. But if we play to our absolute best, and so do New Zealand/South Africa, then we are going to lose. That's not on Joe but he will be absolutely eviscerated for it and the Grand Slam, the championships, none of it will matter.

As I said earlier, the knives are already being sharpened.

Bazzo

Former Former wrote: »

We won the six Nations before the last world cup. We were well off the pace in the warm ups but it didn't matter in the end, we had a decent RWC until all the injuries.

Also, it's not Joe or IRFU saying anything about holding things back. It's a random guy on an internet forum. That's an incredibly important distinction.

I never said or implied it was? I was commenting that the posts coming out on this exact forum now are similar to before the last world cup

I don't think our performance dip was tactical or intended. I think it was human.

I've competed at this level, very few athletes can stay switched on 12 months of the year. Certainly not a random group of 23 collectively.

We had a fire in the belly early season and showed our teeth in November. I'd say that game was talked about more than the six nations. If say that's when the overall team was peaked in terms of fitness

Joe has looked at training tables per player, match stats, coaching journals and all the thing we can't think off and has figured out as close to a formula as there is to getting a bunch of players to peak condition at the right time.

The players are going to be on that timetable and will grudgingly come to recognise where the end game is despite wanting to win everything in between.

I reckon we'll show our teeth again just in time for Japan.

Final is there anyway.

jacothelad

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think our performance dip was tactical or intended. I think it was human.

I've competed at this level, very few athletes can stay switched on 12 months of the year. Certainly not a random group of 23 collectively.

We had a fire in the belly early season and showed our teeth in November. I'd say that game was talked about more than the six nations. If say that's when the overall team was peaked in terms of fitness

Joe has looked at training tables per player, match stats, coaching journals and all the thing we can't think off and has figured out as close to a formula as there is to getting a bunch of players to peak condition at the right time.

The players are going to be on that timetable and will grudgingly come to recognise where the end game is despite wanting to win everything in between.

I reckon we'll show our teeth again just in time for Japan.

Final is there anyway.

Yes. Players eventually run out of steam. The trick I suppose is to rebuild the pressure. Leinster who are the engine of the Ireland team have been good but not their usual ferocious selves. It is difficult to go to the well relentlessly without some diminution of performance. I think this is where Ireland are at the moment. If Leinster rekindle their form of last season against Glasgow I will be a bit more optimistic.



There also are a few players who are at the end of their careers - certainly as far as Ireland are concerned. Best for example has been a cornerstone of the side but major questions need to be asked about his inclusion. I am concerned at his recent form. Some of his play is o.k. but not all. The l/o is awful.......... Some of the more senior and some of the older players also have been less than stellar in play or are seemingly worryingly injury prone.


The side that strangled the life out of opponents last season is driving with the handbrake on.

mystic86

Any word on the launch of the rugby world cup gear?

troyzer

mystic86 wrote: »

Any word on the launch of the rugby world cup gear?

The current stuff has been on sale for a month or so now and they're announcing a training squad next week, might hear something then

Squidgy Black

mystic86 wrote: »

Any word on the launch of the rugby world cup gear?

2015 one was released in July, just before the warm ups. I'd imagine it'll be similar enough time wise.

mfceiling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've competed at this level, very few athletes can stay switched on 12 months of the year.

Never mind the world cup....I want to hear more about your career Venjur.

Eod100

Interesting piece with Nucifora here https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/nucifora-sets-ireland-target-of-at-least-a-semi-final-in-rugby-world-cup-1.3902350?mode=amp&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Rugby+salaries+to+remain+below+minimum+wage%3B+Tipperary+s+roving+style+explained&utm_campaign=morning_sports_briefing_digest

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

Never mind the world cup....I want to hear more about your career Venjur.

I had a brief career right out of college as a sarcasm detector - would you like to hear more about that?

thomond2006

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I had a brief career right out of college as a sarcasm detector - would you like to hear more about that?

No, we'd rather die of thirst.

mfceiling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I had a brief career right out of college as a sarcasm detector - would you like to hear more about that?

Definitely

Clegg

Venjur's been called out here.

Jump_In_Jack

Eod100 wrote: »

Interesting piece with Nucifora here https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/nucifora-sets-ireland-target-of-at-least-a-semi-final-in-rugby-world-cup-1.3902350?mode=amp&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Rugby+salaries+to+remain+below+minimum+wage%3B+Tipperary+s+roving+style+explained&utm_campaign=morning_sports_briefing_digest

This jumped out at me from that article,
"the countdown will begin to the World Cup when Joe Schmidt unveils a preliminary squad of 45-plus on Monday or Tuesday."

phog

Nucifora having a little swipe at Rob's agent

“You’ve got to try and make those things align and if we can all agree on what that is and what the future looks like and what the values are then we usually come to a deal.” Yet the Australian took exception to McHugh’s comments, implying the Line Up Sports boss was not part of the current negotiations.

“I haven’t dealt with that fellow who was his agent, to be honest. I’ve never had a conversation with him so I don’t really know where he came from into it. I didn’t realise he was Rob’s agent.

stl.ire

phog wrote: »

Nucifora having a little swipe at Rob's agent

“You’ve got to try and make those things align and if we can all agree on what that is and what the future looks like and what the values are then we usually come to a deal.” Yet the Australian took exception to McHugh’s comments, implying the Line Up Sports boss was not part of the current negotiations.

“I haven’t dealt with that fellow who was his agent, to be honest. I’ve never had a conversation with him so I don’t really know where he came from into it. I didn’t realise he was Rob’s agent.

Sounds like the IRFU have offered Rob a contract just to be polite.

To compare his situation to other 33 year olds (at the time), he wants a Jaime Heaslip contract but is getting a Donnacha Ryan offer.

Nucifora needs the money for the likes of Stockdale and Larmour who are over 10 years younger. Kearney is already out of the plans.

stl.ire

phog wrote: »

Nucifora having a little swipe at Rob's agent

“You’ve got to try and make those things align and if we can all agree on what that is and what the future looks like and what the values are then we usually come to a deal.” Yet the Australian took exception to McHugh’s comments, implying the Line Up Sports boss was not part of the current negotiations.

“I haven’t dealt with that fellow who was his agent, to be honest. I’ve never had a conversation with him so I don’t really know where he came from into it. I didn’t realise he was Rob’s agent.

Sounds like the IRFU have offered Rob a contract just to be polite.

To compare his situation to other 33 year olds (at the time), he wants a Jaime Heaslip contract but is getting a Donnacha Ryan offer.

Nucifora needs the money for the likes of Stockdale and Larmour who are over 10 years younger. Kearney is already out of the plans.

Shefwedfan

stl.ire wrote: »

Sounds like the IRFU have offered Rob a contract just to be polite.

To compare his situation to other 33 year olds (at the time), he wants a Jaime Heaslip contract but is getting a Donnacha Ryan offer.

Nucifora needs the money for the likes of Stockdale and Larmour who are over 10 years younger. Kearney is already out of the plans.

Irfu never offered Donnacha Ryan a contract from what I remember. They left it to Munster to offer. Munster had no money to offer decent money so he left

The irfu got dragged in because Munster wanted them to pay the contract but they wouldn’t, most think this was because James Ryan was about to start internationals

People seemed to come up with the reason that Ryan was old and then pointed the finger because heaslip was similar age. At that stage Heaslip had started nearly every international for years, Ryan was just back in team after some terrible injuries

I would have liked to see Ryan stay but the issue was not with irfu

Erik Shun

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Irfu never offered Donnacha Ryan a contract from what I remember. They left it to Munster to offer. Munster had no money to offer decent money so he left

The irfu got dragged in because Munster wanted them to pay the contract but they wouldn’t, most think this was because James Ryan was about to start internationals

People seemed to come up with the reason that Ryan was old and then pointed the finger because heaslip was similar age. At that stage Heaslip had started nearly every international for years, Ryan was just back in team after some terrible injuries

I would have liked to see Ryan stay but the issue was not with irfu

There was no difference in the contract offer from Munster to the one he accepted from Racing
He wanted a change, that was all.

Vinnie222

Erik Shun wrote: »

There was no difference in the contract offer from Munster to the one he accepted from Racing
He wanted a change, that was all.

Contract with Racing was 300k a year , Munster wasnt able to come anyway close to that. .

Erik Shun

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Contract with Racing was 300k a year , Munster wasnt able to come anyway close to that. .

Not according to Ryan himself.. but you would know better I guess.

Shefwedfan

Erik Shun wrote: »

There was no difference in the contract offer from Munster to the one he accepted from Racing
He wanted a change, that was all.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.the42.ie/donnacha-ryan-munster-racing-92-move-3308462-Mar2017/%3famp=1

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/donnacha-ryan-to-leave-munster-for-racing-92-reports-1.3026126%3fmode=amp

Not according to anything at the time about the move.....

JJJackal

aloooof wrote: »

Y

look at the team that played NZ in his first Autumn in charge. Of that team, Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, O'Connell and Heaslip have all retired. Five of our best ever players. And he's managed to continue getting results during that time.

I agree that Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, O'Connell and Heaslip were some of our best players ever.

However, would you prefer the younger replacements stockdale, two of henshaw, ringrose and aki, james ryan and stander or a pre-retirement yet still very good Bowe, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, O'Connell and Heaslip?

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Erik Shun wrote: »

There was no difference in the contract offer from Munster to the one he accepted from Racing
He wanted a change, that was all.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.the42.ie/donnacha-ryan-munster-racing-92-move-3308462-Mar2017/%3famp=1

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/donnacha-ryan-to-leave-munster-for-racing-92-reports-1.3026126%3fmode=amp

Not according to anything at the time about the move.....

He says it in this interview:

https://youtu.be/HkJRW22UR-4

Wegians89

Would be very happy if the back row that started yesterday for Leinster was used by Ireland in the World Cup. Would be very hard to leave ruddock out of the Irish squad.

salmocab

If SOB isn’t selected in the traveling squad I presume he has to play for Leinster until after the WC or until he travels over as a replacement obviously?

troyzer

Wegians89 wrote: »

Would be very happy if the back row that started yesterday for Leinster was used by Ireland in the World Cup. Would be very hard to leave ruddock out of the Irish squad.

It'll probably be five backrowers.

POM is going to go no matter what. Stander also. Conan and VdF too. Ruddock, Nordi, SOB are fighting for the last spot.

Ruddock has the advantage of being able to cover second row plus he's a power athelete. Nordi can cover the entire back row but he's really a 7. SOB can cover the entire back row really well but he's not on form.

Wegians89

salmocab wrote: »

If SOB isn’t selected in the traveling squad I presume he has to play for Leinster until after the WC or until he travels over as a replacement obviously?

Was thinking of that myself, would be a very interesting situation and also very likely. Would he be kept on holiday near japan and train on his own?

Wegians89

troyzer wrote: »

It'll probably be five backrowers.

POM is going to go no matter what. Stander also. Conan and VdF too. Ruddock, Nordi, SOB are fighting for the last spot.

Ruddock has the advantage of being able to cover second row plus he's a power athelete. Nordi can cover the entire back row but he's really a 7. SOB can cover the entire back row really well but he's not on form.

Think you need guys who can slot in at 7 and that might give Nordi the edge.

Shefwedfan

salmocab wrote: »

If SOB isn’t selected in the traveling squad I presume he has to play for Leinster until after the WC or until he travels over as a replacement obviously?

Based on previous world cups he has a fair chance of getting called up so probably would continue to train with Leinster or an extended Ireland camp