Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Clegg

Sexton has said he wants to make it until the 2021 Lions tour. I don't doubt that he will either. He has the drive to do it and he's still by far the best 10 we have. He seems to be getting better with age.

Shefwedfan

Clegg wrote: »

Sexton has said he wants to make it until the 2021 Lions tour. I don't doubt that he will either. He has the drive to do it and he's still by far the best 10 we have. He seems to be getting better with age.

Sexton has that target in his head a long time now and he will make it, come hell or high water


Will he be starting 10 for Ireland? Maybe not if Farrell wants to go into a 4 year cycle

Perifect

Clegg wrote: »

Sexton has said he wants to make it until the 2021 Lions tour. I don't doubt that he will either. He has the drive to do it and he's still by far the best 10 we have. He seems to be getting better with age.

He'll be just on 35 then. Can't see him making it. Especially with the punishment he takes. Likely that Carbery will be our 10 heading with the lions.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

Sexton has said he wants to make it until the 2021 Lions tour. I don't doubt that he will either. He has the drive to do it and he's still by far the best 10 we have. He seems to be getting better with age.

2 1/2 years is a long time.

From an Irish POV I hope Sexton isn't first choice by the end of the 2020/21 season.

troyzer

I don't think it's a good decision by Sexton to try and extend his contract to make the Lions.

He'll be very lucky to get there intact and he might not even be selected.

By 2021 I expect Farrell and Carbery to be duking it out as best flyhalves in the world. Sexton might be doing well to get Leinster game time by that point.

bilston

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton has that target in his head a long time now and he will make it, come hell or high water


Will he be starting 10 for Ireland? Maybe not if Farrell wants to go into a 4 year cycle

I don't think there will be massive changes come the 2020 6Ns. It will be the June tour in 2020 and then the 2020 Autumn games where we might see a bit of change.

There is a fair chance Carbery will be starting 10 by the time the 2021 6Ns comes round.

troyzer

bilston wrote: »

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton has that target in his head a long time now and he will make it, come hell or high water


Will he be starting 10 for Ireland? Maybe not if Farrell wants to go into a 4 year cycle

I don't think there will be massive changes come the 2020 6Ns. It will be the June tour in 2020 and then the 2020 Autumn games where we might see a bit of change.

There is a fair chance Carbery will be starting 10 by the time the 2021 6Ns comes round.

Carbery will definitely by the starting 10.

I can see 2020 being the year where Farrell wants to win early and lay down his own mark. He needs Sexton do that. But behind the scenes the wheels will be in motion to get Carbery more and more game time. It'll probably be like ROG and Sexton near the end.

Or hopefully, more like Carter and Barrett.

It's hard to know what players are going to leave after Japan because like I said, Farrell will be so keen to keep the winning ways. He'll twist a lot of arms to get another year out of players so he can keep the band together.

But guys I expect to be gone by the end of Japan would be Best, Kearney and O'Brien as said already. Healy's contract is up at the end of the world cup but I can see him potentially staying.

Toner will leave after his contract expires in June 2020. Earls has a contract until 2021 but I reckon he'll retire early. I think Lowe/Stockdale will be the future partnership and Earls will be pushed out. He'll choose retirement over irrelevance.

jm08

troyzer wrote: »

Toner will leave after his contract expires in June 2020. Earls has a contract until 2021 but I reckon he'll retire early. I think Lowe/Stockdale will be the future partnership and Earls will be pushed out. He'll choose retirement over irrelevance.

So you think these guys would tear up a 400-500K a year contract because they might feel irrelevant?

Either they will be included in international squads or they won't be. Neither would be irrelevant for their province.

troyzer

jm08 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Toner will leave after his contract expires in June 2020. Earls has a contract until 2021 but I reckon he'll retire early. I think Lowe/Stockdale will be the future partnership and Earls will be pushed out. He'll choose retirement over irrelevance.

So you think these guys would tear up a 400-500K a year contract because they might feel irrelevant?

Either they will be included in international squads or they won't be. Neither would be irrelevant for their province.

Lots of players hang up their boots when they can't get a game.

salmocab

There’s no reason to think Toner and Earls will be finished in 2020. Earls in fairness by then may be losing his pace but I’d say he’ll still have a bit to give but Toner could still do a full WC cycle after this. Not suggesting he’ll definitely keep his place but he could still be around and a viable option in 4 years time. 2nd rows tend to have decent longevity.

troyzer

salmocab wrote: »

There’s no reason to think Toner and Earls will be finished in 2020. Earls in fairness by then may be losing his pace but I’d say he’ll still have a bit to give but Toner could still do a full WC cycle after this. Not suggesting he’ll definitely keep his place but he could still be around and a viable option in 4 years time. 2nd rows tend to have decent longevity.

Yeah but he's not exactly 100% cemented as the starting second row. If James Ryan becomes a world class lineout operator do you really think he's going to be started ahead of Henderson or Beirne?

Former Former

2020 is next year. There won't be sweeping changes just for the sake of it.

Someone like Earls or Toner isn't going to just be dumped.

jm08

troyzer wrote: »

Lots of players hang up their boots when they can't get a game.

Like who? Both Peter Stringer and Donnacha O'Callaghan went elsewhere for games when they couldn't get them in Ireland.

jm08

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah but he's not exactly 100% cemented as the starting second row. If James Ryan becomes a world class lineout operator do you really think he's going to be started ahead of Henderson or Beirne?

Neither of those two players are at the same club as Toner. I really don't think Dev is the type to throw a strop if he isn't getting international game time. Leinster will need him when James Ryan is calling the lineout for Ireland.

salmocab

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah but he's not exactly 100% cemented as the starting second row. If James Ryan becomes a world class lineout operator do you really think he's going to be started ahead of Henderson or Beirne?

No and I made that clear in my post. He could still be a quality option. As we can see right now it doesn’t take much for us to be looking down the depth chart. Toner has a few more years in him I don’t get why you think he’ll finish up in just over a years time. He’s playing great and has a decent injury record.

Dubinusa

Lads!! Hold onto yer horses!! Let's have a gander at Carty before anointing Joey as the heir.
Carty has been the best oh these past few months. I think he's worth a look.
Ross Byrne is also in the mix. Farrell may opt for a Sexton type player. Byrne could step in and we wouldn't lose cohesion.
Anyway, Harry Byrne is looking superb atm. He could stake a claim also in 4 yrs time.
Frawley has potential and has shown some good form and then there's Lowry and Johnson.
Joey may well be in pole position, but there's lads right up his arse.

troyzer

Dubinusa wrote: »

Lads!! Hold onto yer horses!! Let's have a gander at Carty before anointing Joey as the heir.
Carty has been the best oh these past few months. I think he's worth a look.
Ross Byrne is also in the mix. Farrell may opt for a Sexton type player. Byrne could step in and we wouldn't lose cohesion.
Anyway, Harry Byrne is looking superb atm. He could stake a claim also in 4 yrs time.
Frawley has potential and has shown some good form and then there's Lowry and Johnson.
Joey may well be in pole position, but there's lads right up his arse.

I can't see it to be honest. The next step in Ireland's evolution towards the All Greens is to exploit the outrageous skill of the young backs coming through. As it stands, they are comically underused.

If we could marry our current system which makes our forwards excellent with a backline which includes a red hot Carbery, Larmour, Ringrose, Stockdale etc. then we'd be unbeatable.

Imagine those backs playing Fijian style heads up rugby. They definitely have the skills and when Carbery bursts onto the scene in two or three years as the definitive 10, I think Irish rugby will go up another level.

Heymans

I think Beirne is a better backrow player than Roux but Roux is a better second row. Beirne would be the perfect replacement for Peter O Mahony in the 6 jersey with his poaching and lineout option. At the moment he isn't big enough to have the presence around the breakdown Roux had at the weekend.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

Earls has a contract until 2021 but I reckon he'll retire early. I think Lowe/Stockdale will be the future partnership and Earls will be pushed out. He'll choose retirement over irrelevance.

Where's this suggestion coming from that Earls will retire early? Even if he isn't picked for Ireland, he'll likely still be plenty good enough for Munster. You think he'll retire as soon as he's not picked for Ireland??

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

Where's this suggestion coming from that Earls will retire early? Even if he isn't picked for Ireland, he'll likely still be plenty good enough for Munster. You think he'll retire as soon as he's not picked for Ireland??

Quite a few wingers in recent years like Bowe and Trimble retired even though they were healthy and still playing well for their province.

Although I just checked and I didn't know they were out of contract which does make a difference.

Stone Gossard

aloooof wrote: »

Where's this suggestion coming from that Earls will retire early? Even if he isn't picked for Ireland, he'll likely still be plenty good enough for Munster. You think he'll retire as soon as he's not picked for Ireland??

Earls is as fit as a fiddle these days... he'll be 33 at his next contract discussion...a shoe in for a Munster contract if not offered a CC.
The only thing that may sway him is like POC and Ryan he may want to try abroad for his last payday

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

Quite a few wingers in recent years like Bowe and Trimble retired even though they were healthy and still playing well for their province.

Although I just checked and I didn't know they were out of contract which does make a difference.

It makes a difference in that it's the exact opposite of what you were saying i.e. retiring early implies mid-contract.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

It makes a difference in that it's the exact opposite of what you were saying i.e. retiring early implies mid-contract.

I thought they had retired mid contract. Hands up on that one.

Either way, I can see Lowe pushing Earls out so he's effectively retired when it comes to Ireland.

razorblunt

leakyboots wrote: »

Not sure if anyone else is noticing this or I'm wrong... but there seems to be an amount of wonky lineouts not getting called for not being straight... maybe it's the camera angles messing with me but that's what I seem to be seeing anyways

There were a few in Murrayfield but I put it down to Poite accounting for the weather and the fact when they were squint Ireland never challenged. Annoyingly its per ref Ireland were pinged vs England even though they won uncontested.


My biggest pet peeve along with what has already been mentioned is the "open gate" applied to offences post penalty. As soon as the ref indicates advantage watch the defending them just go mad throwing themselves in everywhere being blatantly offside, hands in the ruck etc.
I've only ever seen it officiated properly and that was in one Pro 14 game where the ref gave a yellow saying the player had 2 different offences and the team had 3.

Stone Gossard

troyzer wrote: »

I thought they had retired mid contract. Hands up on that one.

Either way, I can see Lowe pushing Earls out so he's effectively retired when it comes to Ireland.

For the 2023 world cup, most likely

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

I thought they had retired mid contract. Hands up on that one.

Either way, I can see Lowe pushing Earls out so he's effectively retired when it comes to Ireland.

Fair enough, but I don't see why you would use the word 'retired'. It's not likely to be a Joe Marler situation. And he'll still likely be playing for Munster.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

Fair enough, but I don't see why you would use the word 'retired'. It's not likely to be a Joe Marler situation. And he'll still likely be playing for Munster.

Well like I said. I thought Bowe and Trimble had already retired under contract. I was looking at their situation and thought Earls might be similar.

But they were out of contract so I was wrong to see that as a precedent.

jm08

troyzer wrote: »

I thought they had retired mid contract. Hands up on that one.

Either way, I can see Lowe pushing Earls out so he's effectively retired when it comes to Ireland.

Highly unlike the IRFU to give a central contract to Earls to 2021 a few months ago if they think Lowe is going to replace him next year!

By the way, Lowe has played his entire career up to now on the left wing - not even one game on the right, so Lowe is going to have to shift Stockdale not Earls to get an international look in.

P.Walnuts

Dubinusa wrote: »

Ross Byrne is also in the mix. Farrell may opt for a Sexton type player. Byrne could step in and we wouldn't lose cohesion.

Here's this notion again the Byrne is a 'Sexton type player' that gets thrown around on here which I've never really got.

Johnny plays very flat, attacks the gain line, makes half breaks....all things that Byrne well doesn't really do at all.

Maybe I'm missing sonething

accensi0n

troyzer wrote: »

Quite a few wingers in recent years like Bowe and Trimble retired even though they were healthy and still playing well for their province.

Although I just checked and I didn't know they were out of contract which does make a difference.

Wasn't Bowe constantly getting injured and Trimble running as if a gale force wind was blowing directly against him?

troyzer

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Here's this notion again the Byrne is a 'Sexton type player' that gets thrown around on here which I've never really got.

Johnny plays very flat, attacks the gain line, makes half breaks....all things that Byrne well doesn't really do at all.

Maybe I'm missing sonething

He's a great passer and he is a good game manager. Not afraid to bark orders and organise his pods.

But I agree, that's where the similarities end. The X factor that Sexton has is his deceptive athleticism which produces a few line breaks and his ability to carry so flat to the line.

troyzer

accensi0n wrote: »

Wasn't Bowe constantly getting injured and Trimble running as if a gale force wind was blowing directly against him?

I remember Bowe at the time he retired saying his body was fine and wasn't a factor in deciding his retirement. Maybe he was just delusional but I took him at face value.

Earls is 32, he's going to hit a wall when it comes to his pace as well just like Trimble.

ClanofLams

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Here's this notion again the Byrne is a 'Sexton type player' that gets thrown around on here which I've never really got.

Johnny plays very flat, attacks the gain line, makes half breaks....all things that Byrne well doesn't really do at all.

Maybe I'm missing sonething

Agree, Byrne’s strengths are much closer to those O’Gara had rather than Sexton.

P.Walnuts

ClanofLams wrote: »

Agree, Byrne’s strengths are much closer to those O’Gara had rather than Sexton.

You know what I was going to type exactly that initially. I think I subconsciously was afraid to mention Sexton and ROG in the same post!

Buer

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Here's this notion again the Byrne is a 'Sexton type player' that gets thrown around on here which I've never really got.

Johnny plays very flat, attacks the gain line, makes half breaks....all things that Byrne well doesn't really do at all.

Maybe I'm missing sonething

Byrne certainly stands deeper (although he's getting better). If I was to compare their similarities it would be that Byrne is very much the director general when he plays. He is good at multi phase play, moving the team down the field and hitting runners with flat passing, changing the direction of play and is happy to probe with the boot too.

Defensively is the other place I see a lot of similarities. Byrne is tall and has those long arms which he uses often to get under the carrier and attempt to hold them up. His defensive game is very strong generally in the 10 channel although he isn't the most agile so I wouldn't want to see him caught in a one on one in open field play.

He will never have the running game that Sexton had/has and I don't think he'll ever become as good at taking the ball to the line but there are certain parallels in how they run the game. That could be as much to do with what they're asked to do by Leinster as it is their own styles though.

Buer

ClanofLams wrote: »

Agree, Byrne’s strengths are much closer to those O’Gara had rather than Sexton.

There are similarities alright in terms of their passing style but Byrne doesn't really deploy the same type of kicking game that ROG did. There aren't many touchfinders at all which was ROG's signature move. Obviously there's a significant difference in their defensive styles too.

It's hard to compare the two players though when the attacking side of the game has evolved so much since ROG was in his pomp. The first phase strike plays that served ROG so well with his flat pass are almost unheard of at this stage.

ClanofLams

Buer wrote: »

There are similarities alright in terms of their passing style but Byrne doesn't really deploy the same type of kicking game that ROG did. There aren't many touchfinders at all which was ROG's signature move. Obviously there's a significant difference in their defensive styles too.

It's hard to compare the two players though when the attacking side of the game has evolved so much since ROG was in his pomp. The first phase strike plays that served ROG so well with his flat pass are almost unheard of at this stage.

Byrne obviously doesn’t kick to touch as much as O’Gara did which is gameplan related but from what I have seen it’s definitely a skill he has?

He’s a more physical defender alright but think their main attributes when their team has possession are very similar.

P.Walnuts

Buer wrote: »

Byrne certainly stands deeper (although he's getting better). If I was to compare their similarities it would be that Byrne is very much the director general when he plays. He is good at multi phase play, moving the team down the field and hitting runners with flat passing, changing the direction of play and is happy to probe with the boot too.

Defensively is the other place I see a lot of similarities. Byrne is tall and has those long arms which he uses often to get under the carrier and attempt to hold them up. His defensive game is very strong generally in the 10 channel although he isn't the most agile so I wouldn't want to see him caught in a one on one in open field play.

He will never have the running game that Sexton had/has and I don't think he'll ever become as good at taking the ball to the line but there are certain parallels in how they run the game. That could be as much to do with what they're asked to do by Leinster as it is their own styles though.

Agree with pretty much all of that.

My post wasn't to say they didn't share some traits, I mean they both have a similar height and build so that they are similar defensively I though was a bit of a given.

My point was I don't see say Johnny going off injured and RB stepping in seamlessly and our style of play not changing at all.

Buer

Fair points. I think the origin of the comparison was more in relation to Byrne being closer in style to Sexton than Carbery as opposed to Byrne and Sexton being hugely similar overall.

I think that still rings true. Carbery is used quite sparingly by Munster and Ireland (although he certainly is involved more for Ireland when on the field). For example, Sexton was on the field for about 25 minutes at the weekend and passed 16 times. Carbery was on the field thereafter and passed 18 times despite Ireland increasing possession significantly in the second half and going through a huge number of phases. Carbery is used a lot more by Ireland though than in Munster so he will become more comfortable as a game runner soon, I would imagine.

Eod100

Good to see Marmion back training with Connacht. Could feature for Italy if he plays for Connacht this weekend and comes through alright.

Article highlights Cooney only getting 8 mins game time in 2 sub appearances so hopefully if Marmion is fit he gets more especially when next match is against Italy.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/six-nations/2019/0213/1029276-kieran-marmion-ireland-italy-connacht/

Shefwedfan

Stone Gossard wrote: »

Earls is as fit as a fiddle these days... he'll be 33 at his next contract discussion...a shoe in for a Munster contract if not offered a CC.
The only thing that may sway him is like POC and Ryan he may want to try abroad for his last payday

I posted about Earls and mentioned from an ireland point of view, not from a Munster point of view

I do think he might hang up international boots after the World cup. The thing is will he stay with munster?

Last time he was gone to Saracens for a big payday only some deal got pulled out by Joe and the IRFU. I expect if he got an offer from France/England he would be off because he won't get a central contract on renewal.



Munster will not be able to compete with a contract from overseas and he has already said he would move if the money is right, plus the UK suits for other reasons

Former Former

Eod100 wrote: »

Good to see Marmion back training with Connacht. Could feature for Italy if he plays for Connacht this weekend and comes through alright.

Article highlights Cooney only getting 8 mins game time in 2 sub appearances so hopefully if Marmion is fit he gets more especially when next match is against Italy.

It's very likely Marmion would have got similarly miniscule game time though, I'm sure Cooney will get 20 - 30 minutes against Italy if he's kept.

Still, it would be great to have Marmion back.

Eod100

Former Former wrote: »

It's very likely Marmion would have got similarly miniscule game time though, I'm sure Cooney will get 20 - 30 minutes against Italy if he's kept.

Still, it would be great to have Marmion back.

Yeah maybe. Think this 6N in particular shows how reliant we are on starting scrumhalf and fullback, maybe even more than outhalf. That said if Conway was fit could he have slotted in for England game?

Seems a bit of a catch 22 of relying on starting players but then also hoping they're not injured when subs are used very sparingly particularly for scrumhalf.

b.gud

Former Former wrote: »

It's very likely Marmion would have got similarly miniscule game time though, I'm sure Cooney will get 20 - 30 minutes against Italy if he's kept.

Still, it would be great to have Marmion back.

I was actually thinking about this recently and wondering if Marmions performance against the All Black in November might mean that Schmidt has a bit more faith in him and would be willing to bring him on a bit sooner. When you look at how New Zealand use Smith and Peranara it would be great if we could do something similar. Have Murray start the game and then bring on Marmion with 15-20 minutes left to inject some pace into the game

Former Former

b.gud wrote: »

I was actually thinking about this recently and wondering if Marmions performance against the All Black in November might mean that Schmidt has a bit more faith in him and would be willing to bring him on a bit sooner. When you look at how New Zealand use Smith and Peranara it would be great if we could do something similar. Have Murray start the game and then bring on Marmion with 15-20 minutes left to inject some pace into the game

I'd like to think so but I don't really believe it.

When Murray got injured in 2017, Marmion did a fine job coming on against Wales and from the start against England... and the following 6N he was back to brief cameos.

b.gud

Former Former wrote: »

I'd like to think so but I don't really believe it.

When Murray got injured in 2017, Marmion did a fine job coming on against Wales and from the start against England... and the following 6N he was back to brief cameos.

Good point. Marmion definitely seems to get credit in the bank for these performances but that credit rarely seems to translate into meaningful tier 1 game time when Murray is fit.

Shefwedfan

b.gud wrote: »

Good point. Marmion definitely seems to get credit in the bank for these performances but that credit rarely seems to translate into meaningful tier 1 game time when Murray is fit.

Murray has had a run of poor games now for both Munster and Ireland. I expect Joe is trying to keep him playing till his form returns.....


If he drops him for Italy match then he more or less has a month without rugby. Not really ideal.

Eod100

b.gud wrote: »

Good point. Marmion definitely seems to get credit in the bank for these performances but that credit rarely seems to translate into meaningful tier 1 game time when Murray is fit.

Was wondering would there be more rotation in RWC year but maybe not judging by RWC 2015. Was thinking there might be some rotation in Japan to suit our match schedule, Scotland and Japan up first. Then Russia and Samoa.

Could see change for Russia game say. Looking back to RWC 2015, only pool game Murray didn't start (or feature at all) was Romania when Reddan started.

Murray subbed at 66 when we were 32-0 up vs Canada. Not subbed at all for Italy which we won 16-9 (closer than I remembered). Subbed at 77 mins vs France when it was 21-9 up.

stephen_n

b.gud wrote: »

I was actually thinking about this recently and wondering if Marmions performance against the All Black in November might mean that Schmidt has a bit more faith in him and would be willing to bring him on a bit sooner. When you look at how New Zealand use Smith and Peranara it would be great if we could do something similar. Have Murray start the game and then bring on Marmion with 15-20 minutes left to inject some pace into the game

I don’t think it’s a lack of faith in the scrumhalves, more so a preference on Joe’s behalf to leave one sub on the bench till as late as possible. For some probably tactical reason, he’s decided SH is the best position to do this with. It’s been a recurring theme no matter who’s on the bench. If it was purely a confidence thing then it’s a really poor reflection when Murray is playing so badly at the moment.

bilston

troyzer wrote: »

Well like I said. I thought Bowe and Trimble had already retired under contract. I was looking at their situation and thought Earls might be similar.

But they were out of contract so I was wrong to see that as a precedent.

I think Trimble did retire mid contract