Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Jump_In_Jack

What % of Ireland’s kicks were high contestables?

Without having that stat my feeling is that Ireland use it a greater % if our kicks than other teams.
At least it was so in past seasons,
Perhaps that has changed the 6nations just gone and something different planned for the RWC?

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

What % of Ireland’s kicks were high contestables?

Without having that stat my feeling is that Ireland use it a greater % if our kicks than other teams.
At least it was so in past seasons,
Perhaps that has changed the 6nations just gone and something different planned for the RWC?

Ireland never kicked that much, was it Eddie Jones or someone said it in press and then everyone ran with it....people love an old buzz word to sound like they know what they are talking about

What was the one this year, dominate challanges or something like that....couldnt walk into a pub without listening to someone giving the full on as if they grew up knewing what it meant :P:P

sydthebeat

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

What % of Ireland’s kicks were high contestables?

Without having that stat my feeling is that Ireland use it a greater % if our kicks than other teams.
At least it was so in past seasons,
Perhaps that has changed the 6nations just gone and something different planned for the RWC?

We dont.... we were just among the first to get good at it as a tactic... and that reputation has followed us even when its obvious that we play a different way in the last couple of seasons.

we now play a very much possession based game, centered around multi ruck phases where we try to recycle as quick as possible to find holes in the opposition defense.

however this season we were found out in the 6N and teams packed the defensive line (particularly due to the fact the we DONT kick much) with 13 and employ rapid line speed to cut down our runners before we got much opportunity... due in no small part to lacking a true second playmaker who can step in at 12.

I actually want to see us kick a lot more in the RWC... even if it means loosing possession in some cases. We need to start getting doubts into defensive minds as to how we are going to play... and we need more tactical kicking to space or the line, employ grubbers and dinks against those blitz defenses.... and of course retain the contestable as a possible weapon between the 10s

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

We dont.... we were just among the first to get good at it as a tactic... and that reputation has followed us even when its obvious that we play a different way in the last couple of seasons.

we now play a very much possession based game, centered around multi ruck phases where we try to recycle as quick as possible to find holes in the opposition defense.

however this season we were found out in the 6N and teams packed the defensive line (particularly due to the fact the we DONT kick much) with 13 and employ rapid line speed to cut down our runners before we got much opportunity... due in no small part to lacking a true second playmaker who can step in at 12.

I actually want to see us kick a lot more in the RWC... even if it means loosing possession in some cases. We need to start getting doubts into defensive minds as to how we are going to play... and we need more tactical kicking to space or the line, employ grubbers and dinks against those blitz defenses.... and of course retain the contestable as a possible weapon between the 10s

Our biggest issue was blockers when we kicked. Instead of wingers etc getting a run at a box kick they have 4-5 players blocking them....to resolve this in fact we should have kicked more but we didnt....


A combination of things didnt help, the fact we never had a settled team for 6 nations. We used a huge amount of players. Plus our 9 & 10 where both not fit. Sexton was clearly unfit for a lot of the games.



Murray was out of form and the choice was to try and play him back into form, these decision did not work.

Could they have worked? of course, if Sexton and Murray had clicked during the 6 nations we would have been a completely different team but they didn't. Can they click now? well we would hope so with a huge amount of time together.

shootermacg

sydthebeat wrote: »

We dont.... we were just among the first to get good at it as a tactic... and that reputation has followed us even when its obvious that we play a different way in the last couple of seasons.

we now play a very much possession based game, centered around multi ruck phases where we try to recycle as quick as possible to find holes in the opposition defense.

however this season we were found out in the 6N and teams packed the defensive line (particularly due to the fact the we DONT kick much) with 13 and employ rapid line speed to cut down our runners before we got much opportunity... due in no small part to lacking a true second playmaker who can step in at 12.

I actually want to see us kick a lot more in the RWC... even if it means loosing possession in some cases. We need to start getting doubts into defensive minds as to how we are going to play... and we need more tactical kicking to space or the line, employ grubbers and dinks against those blitz defenses.... and of course retain the contestable as a possible weapon between the 10s

In the last SA vs NZ game, SA box kicked everything and got good results from it. Nothing wrong with kicking contestable s and CM is one of the best. Come the WC it's going to come down to win at all costs and fcuk the begrudgers!

Christy42

sydthebeat wrote: »

We dont.... we were just among the first to get good at it as a tactic... and that reputation has followed us even when its obvious that we play a different way in the last couple of seasons.

we now play a very much possession based game, centered around multi ruck phases where we try to recycle as quick as possible to find holes in the opposition defense.

however this season we were found out in the 6N and teams packed the defensive line (particularly due to the fact the we DONT kick much) with 13 and employ rapid line speed to cut down our runners before we got much opportunity... due in no small part to lacking a true second playmaker who can step in at 12.

I actually want to see us kick a lot more in the RWC... even if it means loosing possession in some cases. We need to start getting doubts into defensive minds as to how we are going to play... and we need more tactical kicking to space or the line, employ grubbers and dinks against those blitz defenses.... and of course retain the contestable as a possible weapon between the 10s

Our kicking also got far worse this year for some reason. Less accurate, less effective and so we couldn't really go back to it as it was hurting as much as helping. A strong kicking game from England absolutely took us apart. Kicking (well) is part and parcel of the game if you want to win. Even if people don't like it.

Jump_In_Jack

I agree whole-heartedly that Ireland need to play the kicking game when needed, but I just wonder what our % kicks are high contestables?
The grubbers/dinks/cross-field kicks and long-range touch finders seem to be used far less than they should.
England gave us a very harsh lesson this 6 nations, they kicked behind our defensive line relentlessly and pressured everything with huge speed off the line.

The short pass and set up a ruck and short pass and set up a ruck is a very one-dimensional game and the pressing defensive line with speed seemed to close us down against England and Wales.

I might get lambasted for saying this but I think Jack Carty is the type of out-half that could be excellent at the varied kicking game, not sure that Sexton or Carbery have enough variety, or perhaps it's that they are being prevented from those things by the coach?

Gachla

Will we have new tactics for the world cup? Are they working on a master plan right now? I think so. I think we're going to play a more open, running game. What's the point in playing conservatively? Let's go for it! No regrets.

Shefwedfan

Gachla wrote: »

Will we have new tactics for the world cup? Are they working on a master plan right now? I think so. I think we're going to play a more open, running game. What's the point in playing conservatively? Let's go for it! No regrets.

Normally the ref's come out with some new rules or something they are going to clamp down on


Fingers crossed it is players blocking runners.....

Gachla

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Normally the ref's come out with some new rules or something they are going to clamp down on


Fingers crossed it is players blocking runners.....

To catch a box kick? Hopefully not. Let's get real, the box kick is boring as hell and it kind of leaves things to chance.

aloooof

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

...The grubbers/dinks/cross-field kicks and long-range touch finders seem to be used far less than they should.

...I might get lambasted for saying this but I think Jack Carty is the type of out-half that could be excellent at the varied kicking game, not sure that Sexton or Carbery have enough variety, or perhaps it's that they are being prevented from those things by the coach?

Carbery did it a couple of times during the season for Munster (the grubber thru for Conway's try away to Gloucester being a good example).

And Carty came on and varied it in that regard against Wales, showing some really nice kicks thru (albeit he was only on for a handful of minutes when the game when the game was lost).

Sexton is well capable of it too so maybe it is just coming down to coaching instruction.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Normally the ref's World Rugby come out with some new rules laws or something they are going to clamp down on

FYP.

chris85

Gachla wrote: »

To catch a box kick? Hopefully not. Let's get real, the box kick is boring as hell and it kind of leaves things to chance.

There is chance in everything ultimately.

Its an interesting one. It does leave some chance but there is risk also in kicking for territory and giving possession away when they have a better chance of getting the ball back on a contestable. Also if they do recover the ball they immediately are on front foot with a loose defense so its a risk V reward scenario. Id say Ireland team has run some numbers on this and toned it down during Six Nations as was not working with blockers.

Shefwedfan

Gachla wrote: »

To catch a box kick? Hopefully not. Let's get real, the box kick is boring as hell and it kind of leaves things to chance.

If Ireland get to a semi we won't give a s**t if we have kicked the ball 99% of the time....

Gachla

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If Ireland get to a semi we won't give a s**t if we have kicked the ball 99% of the time....

Of course not but if we kick 99% of the time and only get a quarter again?

Henry Ford III

Shefwedfan wrote:

Our biggest issue was blockers when we kicked. Instead of wingers etc getting a run at a box kick they have 4-5 players blocking them....to resolve this in fact we should have kicked more but we didnt....

Such tactical appreciation. You're wasting your days here. You should be in Japan.

thomond2006

Ireland needs Hayes.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ireland needs Hayes wearing his lucky Furlong pj's

Totally agree.

Neil3030

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If Ireland get to a semi we won't give a s**t if we have kicked the ball 99% of the time....

Podge_irl

How anyone could look at the Ireland team of the last two years, where opponents have racked up world record tackle counts on more than one occasion, and decide that the problem with the team is that they kick too much is utterly beyond me.

Ireland were a box-kicking team and it won them two 6 Nations. Then it stopped working. Then they became a possession team and it won them a 6N Grand Slam. The idea that we are a team with only one approach is false, the idea that we are a primarily kicking team is false and the idea that Schmidt can not adapt his team's playing style is false.

Shefwedfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

How anyone could look at the Ireland team of the last two years, where opponents have racked up world record tackle counts on more than one occasion, and decide that the problem with the team is that they kick too much is utterly beyond me.

Ireland were a box-kicking team and it won them two 6 Nations. Then it stopped working. Then they became a possession team and it won them a 6N Grand Slam. The idea that we are a team with only one approach is false, the idea that we are a primarily kicking team is false and the idea that Schmidt can not adapt his team's playing style is false.

If anything over his career we have seen multiple tactics from Joe. All to win games.


Leinster who played some scintillating rugby but also had a mean streak, more or less a home and away team for Europe. 3 European trophies


Early Ireland days when no bonus points so winning at all cost. Not very attractive rugby but competitive and won 2 6 nations


Most recent style of possession rugby, wear the opposition down. Won a Grand Slam plus 2 victories over NZ....plus every other team in the top 10 we came up against....


Whats next? no idea

Jump_In_Jack

Podge_irl wrote: »

How anyone could look at the Ireland team of the last two years, where opponents have racked up world record tackle counts on more than one occasion, and decide that the problem with the team is that they kick too much is utterly beyond me.

Ireland were a box-kicking team and it won them two 6 Nations. Then it stopped working. Then they became a possession team and it won them a 6N Grand Slam. The idea that we are a team with only one approach is false, the idea that we are a primarily kicking team is false and the idea that Schmidt can not adapt his team's playing style is false.

Except our two embarrassing defeats in the most recent 6nations, have we adapted since then?

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Except our two embarrassing defeats in the most recent 6nations, have we adapted since then?

Seriously we need to get over this


England game, we where still in match up till the last 20 mins or so


Wales we never got going, but sure we hardly ever win in Wales....


It was 2 losses....some people are having a serious overreaction to it.


England collapsed from a winning position in Cardiff, absolutely lost it and then followed it up with a brutal second half against Scotland. Don't see doom and gloom from any of their fans. Ask any of them are they are tipping the team to win the WC...or at least challange for it.....


We lost 2 games......gave the team a good kick up bum....onwards and upwards

Podge_irl

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Except our two embarrassing defeats in the most recent 6nations, have we adapted since then?

Yeah. We have gone to a novel stealth approach for our rugby. The team have adaptive jerseys so that the opposition and fans literally can't see them on the pitch.

Oh no, wait my bad, we just haven't played any matches since then.

We lost 2 games in the 2017 6 Nations - including our only loss in the last 6 years to bloody Scotland - and somehow turned it around to annihilate South Africa in the autumn of 2017 and then win a grand slam and beat NZ in 2018. So personally I'm not that worried.

thomond2006

ROC on OTB suggesting Beirne to start at 6 on Saturday.

irishbucsfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Except our two embarrassing defeats in the most recent 6nations, have we adapted since then?

How could anyone possibly know if they’ve adapted since then?!

Jump_In_Jack

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How could anyone possibly know if they’ve adapted since then?!

That’s exactly the point I was making.

We’re all hoping we have a new plan that will be unveiled but nobody outside of the training camp knows yet.

A bit of concern is justifiable at the moment, no point trying to embarrass posters for expressing their concern, at least if there is something coherent to discuss, I’m not interested in reading doom and gloom with no substance to the posts.

shootermacg

Ireland won with 14 men in SA, they took the series down in Australia and beat NZ twice.
It looks to me like Ireland have become a big game team and their big game in the WC is either SA or NZ.

I think we'll all have a semi

irishbucsfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

That’s exactly the point I was making.

We’re all hoping we have a new plan that will be unveiled but nobody outside of the training camp knows yet.

A bit of concern is justifiable at the moment, no point trying to embarrass posters for expressing their concern, at least if there is something coherent to discuss, I’m not interested in reading doom and gloom with no substance to the posts.

No one really knows.

But this team under this management have constantly broken new ground in terms of achievement in Irish rugby. It's exceptionally miserable to not be at least a little hopeful, let alone expecting us to lose to Japan and Scotland.

Jump_In_Jack

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No one really knows.

But this team under this management have constantly broken new ground in terms of achievement in Irish rugby. It's exceptionally miserable to not be at least a little hopeful, let alone expecting us to lose to Japan and Scotland.

By replying to my post are you suggesting I was miserable? I literally posted I was hoping we’d be better. I certainly haven’t been posting that we’ll lose to Japan, and I think we’re 50/50 with Scotland at worst.

Faugheen

thomond2006 wrote: »

ROC on OTB suggesting Beirne to start at 6 on Saturday.

Would be surprised with that. I can see a rotational team playing which would mean Ruddock is Captain.

I’d much rather Ruddock plays. He deserves a chance far more than Beirne does.

Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

ROC on OTB suggesting Beirne to start at 6 on Saturday.

Might as well give it a lash.

If you're going to pick a guy for his versatility, then you'd better see if he can actually play in two positions.

irishbucsfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

By replying to my post are you suggesting I was miserable? I literally posted I was hoping we’d be better. I certainly haven’t been posting that we’ll lose to Japan, and I think we’re 50/50 with Scotland at worst.

Well if you aren't saying that we'll lose to Scotland or Japan then I'd say it's highly unlikely I'm referring to you!

Gachla

The way the fixtures have worked out, we'll know who we're playing in the quarter final before our first match. That's assuming we go on to beat Scotland and Japan obviously. Of course, New Zealand and South Africa will know then too. So both teams will be able to rest players, get players into gear, whatever preparation is deemed necessary for the quarter final. It might seem a bit simplistic but that quarter final defines the world cup for us. Lose and it's deemed another failure, win and it will be seen as a success no matter what happens after against Australia or whoever.

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

Might as well give it a lash.

If you're going to pick a guy for his versatility, then you'd better see if he can actually play in two positions.

I'd prefer Ruddock

Has shown against SA he can mix it with the big boys, only for injuries he might be a nailed on starter

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I'd prefer Ruddock

Has shown against SA he can mix it with the big boys, only for injuries he might be a nailed on starter

Has he ever been picked ahead of POM / Stander when fit for a tier 1 game? Ruddock over POM gets mentioned every now and again, but I just don't see it happening.

And which game against SA? The most recent one he's started against them was over 3 years ago.

Podge_irl

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

That’s exactly the point I was making.

We’re all hoping we have a new plan that will be unveiled but nobody outside of the training camp knows yet.

A bit of concern is justifiable at the moment, no point trying to embarrass posters for expressing their concern, at least if there is something coherent to discuss, I’m not interested in reading doom and gloom with no substance to the posts.

Ireland were not focusing on the 6N - which is a pretty radical departure from their previous approaches. I don't think we can read that much into the tournament at all. Even still, the losses were not "embarrassing". We were caught on the hop by England but these things happen. The Welsh match was more worrying for sure but it was away from home against a very good Welsh team.

Ultimately, history suggests that teams under Schmidt are adaptable and consistently successful. We performed poorly in a 6N we were fundamentally not targeting (it was very unusual to hear the Irish team talking about the world cup after the Nov series and completely glossing over the 6N). I do not think Henshaw would have started at 15 in a "normal" opening 6N match for example.

People are reading too much into what was ultimately a middling rather then even poor 6N and while I can understand some concern the general wailing (not from you) is grinding me down.

Podge_irl

aloooof wrote: »

Has he ever been picked ahead of POM / Stander when fit for a tier 1 game? Ruddock over POM gets mentioned every now and again, but I just don't see it happening.

And which game against SA? The most recent one he's started against them was over 3 years ago.

No. There is absolutely no reason to think Ruddock ever had a chance of nailing down a starting position.

I would equally prefer Ruddock at 6 to Beirne but if we are talking lock/6 options then obviously Beirne is miles ahead.

Rigor Mortis

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ireland were not focusing on the 6N - which is a pretty radical departure from their previous approaches./QUOTE]

I'm not massively worried about it but I dont think this claim holds any water.
If we were not focussed on the 6n, Carberry would have started regularly during that tournament.

aloooof

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I'm not massively worried about it but I dont think this claim holds any water.
If we were not focussed on the 6n, Carberry would have started regularly during that tournament.

How do you know that wasn't the plan? He was injured for the final 3 games, iirc.

Podge_irl

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I'm not massively worried about it but I dont think this claim holds any water.
If we were not focussed on the 6n, Carberry would have started regularly during that tournament.

Well I think he might have started against Italy but ultimately he missed the last 3 games through injury so we'll never know.

It's small margins, but its highly unusual for an Irish team to be completely glossing over a 6N when talking about what lies ahead and that is exactly what several players were doing post the NZ game in the autumn. It was clear that their focus was firstly on that game and then straight onto the world cup. It only takes a small drop in focus to really impact performances and I don't think their focus was really on the 6N.

Henry Ford III

Podge_irl wrote:

Ireland were not focusing on the 6N...

Where does that idea come from? I don't believe a word of it

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

Has he ever been picked ahead of POM / Stander when fit for a tier 1 game? Ruddock over POM gets mentioned every now and again, but I just don't see it happening.

And which game against SA? The most recent one he's started against them was over 3 years ago.

His debut was against SA, where he was MoM, iirc.

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

His debut was against SA, where he was MoM, iirc.

The game from 2014? Are we now using a game from 5 years ago to shout for a players inclusion?

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Has he ever been picked ahead of POM / Stander when fit for a tier 1 game? Ruddock over POM gets mentioned every now and again, but I just don't see it happening.

And which game against SA? The most recent one he's started against them was over 3 years ago.

I wasn't talking about Standar or POM. I am talking about Ruddock v Beirne.



I would prefer Ruddock over Beirne. Not just his form in green when called upon but also he has been hugely impressive for Leinster in the last 18 months.



Any of the big games Beirne has been shown up, Leinster have no issue with him at all and Wales had no problem. A SA back row is not going to either. Especially if POM is in the same team. Ruddock is more agressive and can offer the same flexibility.



Personal opinion I think Ruddock is a better option. But this is before the friendlies of course, maybe Beirne has a couple of cracking games and Ruddock doesn't so that opinion could change.

Podge_irl

Ruddock isn't competing against Beirne though. Beirne's only chance of going is as lock/backrow cover, a position that Ruddock doesn't cover.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I wasn't talking about Standar or POM. I am talking about Ruddock v Beirne.

I would prefer Ruddock over Beirne. Not just his form in green when called upon but also he has been hugely impressive for Leinster in the last 18 months.

*Any of the big games Beirne has been shown up, Leinster have no issue with him at all and Wales had no problem. A SA back row is not going to either. Especially if POM is in the same team. Ruddock is more agressive and can offer the same flexibility.

Personal opinion I think Ruddock is a better option. But this is before the friendlies of course, maybe Beirne has a couple of cracking games and Ruddock doesn't so that opinion could change.

I don't think it's comparing like with like tho. Beirne is a 2nd row who can cover 6. Ruddock is a 6 who can cover 7 and maybe 2nd row if you're down to the bare bones.

The make-up of the rest of the squad would likely have a bigger bearing on their selections, rather than it being a head-to-head decision between the 2 of them.

* As an aside, Beirne was Man of the Match against Leinster in December.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think it's comparing like with like tho. Beirne is a 2nd row who can cover 6. Ruddock is a 6 who can cover 7 and maybe 2nd row if you're down to the bare bones.

The make-up of the rest of the squad would likely have a bigger bearing on their selections, rather than it being a head-to-head decision between the 2 of them.

* As an aside, Beirne was Man of the Match against Leinster in December.

Beirne has been converted to a 2nd row by Munster. Before that he played majority of time in back row

Ruddock has played second row before many times for Leinster, not his preferred position but he can if needs required.

So they are very similar.

In a Pro 14 match? have a look at the semi and final the previous year...

awec

Rhys Ruddock will never play second row for Ireland so this whole discussion is pointless.

Shefwedfan

awec wrote: »

Rhys Ruddock will never play second row for Ireland so this whole discussion is pointless.

I doubt he will but he can if we really really need him to


Remember Madigan was a reserve 9 for last WC...:p