Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Podge_irl

Sugar Free wrote: »

DAZN usually have rugby. It’s a pay service but you can get a free trial...

https://watch.dazn.com/de-DE/rugby-live-stream/

DAZN are quite good for rugby in general. Surprising amount of Pro14 and a lot of European rugby. Though can't be completely trusted to have everything you're looking for alas and they go from having every single Pro14 game one week to only 1 or 2 the next sometimes (assuming the German access is the same as Switzerland anyway).

ionadnapokot

Mr Tickle wrote: »

For me that comes down to how many centres we bring. I'd see Ringrose, Bundee and Henshaw as pretty much nailed on. If Farrell is brought then I'd take Conway as a better back 3 player. If he's not then I'd bring Addison for the versatility.

Similarly the number of half backs can be brought into that conversation.
Lots of moving parts this year.

and thats before the inevitable injuries.
2 OH, 3 SH, 2 12s, 2 13s, 2 Wingers, 1 FB, 2 Utility backs (Larmour & Conway/Addison)

ionadnapokot

Minozzi not starting:(
Questo il XV che scenderà in campo:
15 Edoardo PADOVANI (Zebre Rugby Club, 20 caps)*
14 Angelo ESPOSITO (Benetton Rugby, 20 caps)*
13 Tommaso BENVENUTI (Benetton Rugby, 56 caps)*
12 Marco ZANON (Benetton Rugby, 1 cap)*
11 Giulio BISEGNI (Zebre Rugby Club, 11 caps)*
10 Carlo CANNA (Zebre Rugby Club, 32 caps)
9 Guglielmo PALAZZANI (Zebre Rugby Club, 31 caps)
8 Jimmy TUIVAITI (Zebre Rugby Club, 3 caps)
7 Maxime MBANDA’ (Zebre Rugby Club, 16 caps)*
6 Giovanni LICATA (Zebre Rugby Club, 7 caps)*
5 Dean BUDD (Benetton Rugby, 20 caps) – capitano
4 Alessandro ZANNI (Benetton Rugby, 111 caps)
3 Marco RICCIONI (Benetton Rugby, esordiente)*
2 Oliviero FABIANI (Zebre Rugby Club, 7 caps)
1 Nicola QUAGLIO (Benetton Rugby, 9 caps)

A disposizione:

16 Federico ZANI (Benetton Rugby 7 caps)
17 Andrea LOVOTTI (Zebre Rugby Club, 34 caps)*
18 Simone FERRARI (Benetton Rugby, 22 caps)
19 Marco LAZZARONI (Benetton Rugby, 3 caps)*
20 Renato GIAMMARIOLI (Zebre Rugby Club, 3 caps)*
21 Callum BRALEY (Gloucester, esordiente)
22 Ian MCKINLEY (Benetton Rugby, 8 caps)
23 Matteo MINOZZI (Wasps, 10 caps)*

https://federugby.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13729:italrugby-oshea-annuncia-il-xv-per-lirlanda&catid=252:slide&Itemid=811

Faugheen

Gachla wrote: »

Standar? Ruddock just doesn't fit in, he's good but not at the level we require.

Granted actually, but Ruddock has still walloped them more often than not when he’s played against them.

To say he’s not at the well we require is absolute nonsense, to be quite honest. He starts for one of the best teams in Europe and has been one of the best and most consistent players of the last two years.

Saying he doesn’t fit at the moment is accurate, but it doesn’t mean he’s not at the required level. Ruddock would walk into most international sides.

lawrencesummers

Batrachotox wrote: »

If anyone remembers the RWC 2015 warm ups they’ll remember DK ended up having a stormer and playing himself into the squad

If anyone rememers the RWC2015 games they’ll remember DK ended up having a mare.

stephen_n

lawrencesummers wrote: »

If anyone rememers the RWC2015 games they’ll remember DK ended up having a mare.

If anyone actually remembers what happened that day, they’d know it was the Irish defence having a mare that day, leaving him exposed. Sure never let the truth get in the way of a good scapegoat though.

Podge_irl

stephen_n wrote: »

If anyone actually remembers what happened that day, they’d know it was the Irish defence having a mare that day, leaving him exposed. Sure never let the truth get in the way of a good scapegoat though.

It wasn't even that the whole defence had a mare. Ireland defended super narrowly at the time, relying on line speed from midfield and slowing of ball from the backrow. Without SOB, Sexton and Payne this approach was completely screwed and Argentina got wide with ludicrous ease. Kearney wasn't amazing or anything, but he was ridiculously exposed out on the wing with our defensive alignment.

swiwi_

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1159449301979992064?s=19

The most disappointing thing about this selection is the lack of twitter handles. Sad to see standards slipping so drastically.

lawrencesummers

stephen_n wrote: »

If anyone actually remembers what happened that day, they’d know it was the Irish defence having a mare that day, leaving him exposed. Sure never let the truth get in the way of a good scapegoat though.

So the Irish defence made him miss his tackles. Sure. He was bad, so were others, but he was bad.

AbusesToilets

Gachla wrote: »

I wouldn't have Ruddock in the squad. He's a solid player but nothing more. He has some very good games but doesn't do anything exceptional. Others offer much more.

Nonsense, he's the best 6 in the country imo, and as other have said he'd push to start for the majority of other top teams. Wales would kill for him.

AbusesToilets

Podge_irl wrote: »

It wasn't even that the whole defence had a mare. Ireland defended super narrowly at the time, relying on line speed from midfield and slowing of ball from the backrow. Without SOB, Sexton and Payne this approach was completely screwed and Argentina got wide with ludicrous ease. Kearney wasn't amazing or anything, but he was ridiculously exposed out on the wing with our defensive alignment.

Joe should've started Fitz, in the center imo. He was always an excellent defender.

Gachla

Faugheen wrote: »

Granted actually, but Ruddock has still walloped them more often than not when he’s played against them.

To say he’s not at the well we require is absolute nonsense, to be quite honest. He starts for one of the best teams in Europe and has been one of the best and most consistent players of the last two years.

Saying he doesn’t fit at the moment is accurate, but it doesn’t mean he’s not at the required level. Ruddock would walk into most international sides.

He doesn't even walk onto the Leinster team! He's a strong player and does a lot well but he's not good enough for the top level of international rugby. That's no slight on him, competition is fierce at that level.

Gachla

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Nonsense, he's the best 6 in the country imo, and as other have said he'd push to start for the majority of other top teams. Wales would kill for him.

Whatever about Wales, he's a good way short of getting a start for Ireland which shows he's not the best number 6 in the country.

Podge_irl

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Joe should've started Fitz, in the center imo. He was always an excellent defender.

In retrospect yeah, I'd agree. It was a pretty unprecedented injury blow - not just 5 players but essentially the 5 players we could least afford to lose. Fitz left it a bit late to return to form alas, him at 13 and Earls on the wing would have been much stronger. We relied a ridiculous amount on Sexton and Payne in midfield to shut teams down while we defended quite narrow though and without them it all just fell apart.

Faugheen

Gachla wrote: »

He doesn't even walk onto the Leinster team! He's a strong player and does a lot well but he's not good enough for the top level of international rugby. That's no slight on him, competition is fierce at that level.

Yes he does. Any big game Leinster have had this year he has started when available. Only exception is the first game against Wasps when Leavy was named to start ahead of him, but Ruddock came into that team and dominated. He's a top quality player.

Again, agreed with you on the competition, but you're really underrating him here.

The strong competition doesn't mean he's not good enough. It's a great position to be in and it's not what I'm arguing, but to say he's not good enough when he's consistently been better than Stander and POM when they've played each other shows the level he is at, and it's up there with POM and Stander.

What makes you think Ruddock isn't at that level?

mogwai81

Sugar Free wrote: »

DAZN usually have rugby. It’s a pay service but you can get a free trial...

https://watch.dazn.com/de-DE/rugby-live-stream/

Thanks for the reply. I currently have DAZN, but they haven't got the warm up or the World Cup games. Thankfully the World Cup games are are being broadcasted on free to air tv over here.

swiwi_

mogwai81 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I currently have DAZN, but they haven't got the warm up or the World Cup games. Thankfully the World Cup games are are being broadcasted on free to air tv over here.

RugbyPass has the warmups. In fact RugbyPass just about covers everything these days: all the main leagues whether inter or intra country, all the internationals etc. Live or delayed, full game or about 12 minutes of highlights. But yeah the rugby World Cup should be on free to air in most non traditional rugby countries, it was last time anyway.

jm08

Faugheen wrote: »

Yes he does. Any big game Leinster have had this year he has started when available. Only exception is the first game against Wasps when Leavy was named to start ahead of him, but Ruddock came into that team and dominated. He's a top quality player.

Again, agreed with you on the competition, but you're really underrating him here.

The strong competition doesn't mean he's not good enough. It's a great position to be in and it's not what I'm arguing, but to say he's not good enough when he's consistently been better than Stander and POM when they've played each other shows the level he is at, and it's up there with POM and Stander.

What makes you think Ruddock isn't at that level?

I don't think he is athletic enough or has the dynamisan for the very top level (and that is why he only has 10 starting caps for Ireland out of 21 caps). He is a similar age to POM who has 51 starts out of 58 caps (and he was out for quiet a while after the last world cup).

A lot of people would prefer CJ at 6, but Schmidt likes POM's dynamism in the lineout. Ruddock or CJ would never have the same agility as POM has in defensive linout.

Back in 2011 there there was competition between Donnacha Ryan and a Leinster backrower (whose name escapes me now - he had to retire through injury). Ryan was the 2nd row who could play a bit of backrow, and the Leinster player was a backrow who could play a bit of 2nd row. Ryan got selected in the end. I can see a similar kind of call having to be made between a selection of Henderson and Beirne and maybe Ruddock. I think Ruddock will lose out in that scenario.

mogwai81

swiwi_ wrote: »

RugbyPass has the warmups. In fact RugbyPass just about covers everything these days: all the main leagues whether inter or intra country, all the internationals etc. Live or delayed, full game or about 12 minutes of highlights. But yeah the rugby World Cup should be on free to air in most non traditional rugby countries, it was last time anyway.

Unfortunately my RugbyPass subscription states that the content is unavailable in my region. I just have the Championship, Super Rugby, Mitre 10

aloooof

jm08 wrote: »

Back in 2011 there there was competition between Donnacha Ryan and a Leinster backrower (whose name escapes me now - he had to retire through injury). Ryan was the 2nd row who could play a bit of backrow, and the Leinster player was a backrow who could play a bit of 2nd row. Ryan got selected in the end. I can see a similar kind of call having to be made between a selection of Henderson and Beirne and maybe Ruddock. I think Ruddock will lose out in that scenario.

Kevin McLaughlin, maybe?

molloyjh

Ruddock has had his share of injuries as well let's not forget. Some of the stuff being posted here is just funny to read. He doesn't walk into the Leinster team!? Hes clear first choice for Leinster. Hes not at the level for international rugby? Hes the first choice blindside for one of the top 2 teams in Europe. Hes been unfortunate that hes around at the same time that POM is. But it's also worth remembering that while POM has had some outrageous moments this season (the NZ game being the obvious example), hes also struggled for form for large parts of the last 2 seasons too. Ruddock wont have those outrageous moments (neither would Stander) but hes been a far more consistent performer too.

As for Dave Kearney, people love themselves a fall guy. But when a winger is faced with a 2 on 1 then hes always on a loser. The way we defended in 2011 required the midfield to be able to push up and close off the outside channels. For 1 of the Argie tries the midfield players tasked with doing that were Rory Best and Mike Ross, such was the state of our defensive organisation. That's not really anyone's fault, it's the result of the loss of so many key players. But, like the English media at a soccer world cup, some people have to blame an individual. Could Dave have done better? Probably. Was it likely that a winger in his position would have? Probably not. Like a penalty in soccer you expect it to be scored.

Former Former

Happy with that team, and it's a reasonable Italian lineup too so hopefully we'll learn something meaningful.

Faugheen

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think he is athletic enough or has the dynamisan for the very top level (and that is why he only has 10 starting caps for Ireland out of 21 caps). He is a similar age to POM who has 51 starts out of 58 caps (and he was out for quiet a while after the last world cup).

A lot of people would prefer CJ at 6, but Schmidt likes POM's dynamism in the lineout. Ruddock or CJ would never have the same agility as POM has in defensive linout.

Back in 2011 there there was competition between Donnacha Ryan and a Leinster backrower (whose name escapes me now - he had to retire through injury). Ryan was the 2nd row who could play a bit of backrow, and the Leinster player was a backrow who could play a bit of 2nd row. Ryan got selected in the end. I can see a similar kind of call having to be made between a selection of Henderson and Beirne and maybe Ruddock. I think Ruddock will lose out in that scenario.

Ruddock is absolutely athletic enough for the top level. Anyone saying otherwise hasn't actually seen enough of him. He's a monster with an excellent ability to get around the park both with the ball in hand and at rucktime. Certainly would take a load of the carrying weight off Stander and would match POM's work-rate at the breakdown.

Again, I'm not talking about starting him over POM or Stander, but he is definitely up there with them. POM's line-out ability is second to nobody, which is why he starts. Again, I'm not suggesting otherwise.

I'm talking about the ability of Rhys Ruddock here, not about whether he should start or not. For people to say he's not good enough for top level rugby has absolutely no basis for that claim other than POM and CJ are better options than him. That's an indication of the stacked options at 6, rather than anything about Ruddock himself.

I conceded a long time ago that he won't be going to the World Cup barring an injury to POM, so that last paragraph isn't what I'm getting at either.

He's an excellent player and a top class pro. If all came to all and we had to play him at 6, he would not weaken the side at all.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

Back in 2011 there there was competition between Donnacha Ryan and a Leinster backrower (whose name escapes me now - he had to retire through injury). Ryan was the 2nd row who could play a bit of backrow, and the Leinster player was a backrow who could play a bit of 2nd row. Ryan got selected in the end. I can see a similar kind of call having to be made between a selection of Henderson and Beirne and maybe Ruddock. I think Ruddock will lose out in that scenario.

Kevin McLaughlin. He was closer to a 6/lock than Ruddock is.

aloooof

My take on Ruddock; he absolutely wouldn't let us down but I just don't see any situation where he gets in ahead of POM. Yes, he's had his fair share of injuries but ultimately, he's never been selected ahead of POM against a Tier 1 opponent in, what, 7, 8 seasons? There's a reason for that.

Our first choice back-row is 6. POM 7. VDF and 8. Stander. Imo, the most likely change to that is Conan and 2 from the other 3.

shootermacg

Faugheen wrote: »

Only other 6 at his level is POM to be fair.

CJ is possibly the best out of position six in the country.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

My take on Ruddock; he absolutely wouldn't let us down but I just don't see any situation where he gets in ahead of POM. Yes, he's had his fair share of injuries but ultimately, he's never been selected ahead of POM against a Tier 1 opponent in, what, 7, 8 seasons? There's a reason for that.

Our first choice back-row is 6. POM 7. VDF and 8. Stander. Imo, the most likely change to that is Conan and 2 from the other 3.

Agree with this. I'd select POM over Rhys, but wouldnt be at all worried if Rhys had to start due to injury.

Faugheen

aloooof wrote: »

My take on Ruddock; he absolutely wouldn't let us down but I just don't see any situation where he gets in ahead of POM. Yes, he's had his fair share of injuries but ultimately, he's never been selected ahead of POM against a Tier 1 opponent in, what, 7, 8 seasons? There's a reason for that.

Our first choice back-row is 6. POM 7. VDF and 8. Stander. Imo, the most likely change to that is Conan and 2 from the other 3.

Exactly what I’m trying to say. There’s another poster saying he isn’t good enough for the top level, which simply isn’t true despite other players being ahead of him.

Gachla

My point is that he won't stand out at the top international level. He's a very good player but at that top level, you need something special. He hasn't got that in my opinion. Not only are O'Mahony and Standar ahead of him, but I'd also rate Henderson as a better 6 and obviously Beirne has a better chance of getting a squad place for the world cup.

stephen_n

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So the Irish defence made him miss his tackles. Sure. He was bad, so were others, but he was bad.

Or you can just chose to ignore the context of the missed tackles.

sydthebeat

Ruddock has captained Ireland multiple times..... to suggest hes isnt good enough for international rugby is simply ludicrous.

Faugheen

Gachla wrote: »

My point is that he won't stand out at the top international level. He's a very good player but at that top level, you need something special. He hasn't got that in my opinion. Not only are O'Mahony and Standar ahead of him, but I'd also rate Henderson as a better 6 and obviously Beirne has a better chance of getting a squad place for the world cup.

What is it about Rhys Ruddock that doesn’t make him international standard?

Talk about his abilities, not any other players. Nobody is arguing for him to start here. You’re the only one saying he’s not good enough to play international rugby and I’d like you to back this up for me.

AbusesToilets

Joe values POM defensive ability in the lineout, and uses Stander to make up for the loss of work rate that POM brings. That's a tactical decision, and he's not for turning at this stage. I don't think it's our best backrow, but not likely to change now.

armchaircoach

Ruddock has played (and captained) Ireland pretty much any time he has not been injured during an international period. However that has been few and far between. Few things in life are certain apart from death, taxes, and Ruddock getting injured in the second week of January.

Shefwedfan

Gachla wrote: »

My point is that he won't stand out at the top international level. He's a very good player but at that top level, you need something special. He hasn't got that in my opinion. Not only are O'Mahony and Standar ahead of him, but I'd also rate Henderson as a better 6 and obviously Beirne has a better chance of getting a squad place for the world cup.

Guess you don’t watch Leinster so

Or Ireland when ruddock plays...

Gachla

Faugheen wrote: »

What is it about Rhys Ruddock that doesn’t make him international standard?

Talk about his abilities, not any other players. Nobody is arguing for him to start here. You’re the only one saying he’s not good enough to play international rugby and I’d like you to back this up for me.

I said the top level. He'd do a decent job against lower ranking teams. He has an all round solid game and he's strong but he's not exceptional in any area. This is why he's not good enough at the top level and it's why he only has 20 caps for Ireland.

Gachla

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Joe values POM defensive ability in the lineout, and uses Stander to make up for the loss of work rate that POM brings. That's a tactical decision, and he's not for turning at this stage. I don't think it's our best backrow, but not likely to change now.

Or maybe he just rates O'Mahony and Standar as superior players?

Gachla

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Guess you don’t watch Leinster so

Or Ireland when ruddock plays...

Wrong.

Faugheen

Gachla wrote: »

Or maybe he just rates O'Mahony and Standar as superior players?

He can believe this but it doesn’t mean Ruddock is vastly inferior.

The fact he still captains Ireland despite only 20-odd caps shows he’s still held in very high regard.

If POM got injured and Ruddock had to play in a World Cup final, do you think the back-row will be significantly weaker? He has performed against the top sides when he’s been asked to, sometimes out of position at 7.

He has performed against international standard back-rows (very often standing out) nearly every week for Leinster, including when he has to come up against Stander and POM.

He’s probably not exceptional at any one thing, that I will give you, but he is an excellent all-round 6 and has abilities of a high-level in every facet of what’s required from a 6.

Gachla

Faugheen wrote: »

He can believe this but it doesn’t mean Ruddock is vastly inferior.

The fact he still captains Ireland despite only 20-odd caps shows he’s still held in very high regard.

If POM got injured and Ruddock had to play in a World Cup final, do you think the back-row will be significantly weaker? He has performed against the top sides when he’s been asked to, sometimes out of position at 7.

He has performed against international standard back-rows (very often standing out) nearly every week for Leinster, including when he has to come up against Stander and POM.

He’s probably not exceptional at any one thing, that I will give you, but he is an excellent all-round 6 and has abilities of a high-level in every facet of what’s required from a 6.

Well, I never said he was vastly inferior. He's just not as good as others we have. Again, that's not a slight on him. The level we're at and we're aiming for is top 4 in the world and higher. Players need to have something exceptional in their arsenal, hence why others are ahead of him.
For Leinster, he has a superb pack around him, usually far superior to the opposition. That's why players are selected on individual merits and obviously the Irish managment team judge him to be inferior to others.

lawrencesummers

stephen_n wrote: »

Or you can just chose to ignore the context of the missed tackles.

Context = excuse.

AbusesToilets

Saying Ruddock isn't up to top level rugby is laughable man, straight up. Joe might not select him, for reasons, but the fact is he's been a key part of multiple winning teams for Leinster, has been a standout performer for the national team against top opposition, and has been recognised as captain material at every level he's played at.

Everyone has their favorites and biases, only natural. I'm a huge fan of Ruddocks, I'll die on the hill that he's the best 6 in the country and has been for awhile. I can accept Schmidt's preference for POM, even if I don't agree with it.

Faugheen

Gachla wrote: »

Well, I never said he was vastly inferior. He's just not as good as others we have. Again, that's not a slight on him. The level we're at and we're aiming for is top 4 in the world and higher. Players need to have something exceptional in their arsenal, hence why others are ahead of him.
For Leinster, he has a superb pack around him, usually far superior to the opposition. That's why players are selected on individual merits and obviously the Irish managment team judge him to be inferior to others.

Again you're doing him a complete disservice.

'For Leinster he has a superb pack around him' - a pack that he consistently a standout performer in, up there with James Ryan and Tadhg Furlong. How much of that is down to other players around him? Very little, he's part of the reason why Leinster's pack is so good. He takes the pressure of carrying off Conan and Ryan by being an effective carrier himself, he hits every ruck, his tackle count is up there with Van Der Flier's more often than not and he's a line-out option.

That's all down to him, not everyone else around him.

Gachla

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Saying Ruddock isn't up to top level rugby is laughable man, straight up. Joe might not select him, for reasons, but the fact is he's been a key part of multiple winning teams for Leinster, has been a standout performer for the national team against top opposition, and has been recognised as captain material at every level he's played at.

Everyone has their favorites and biases, only natural. I'm a huge fan of Ruddocks, I'll die on the hill that he's the best 6 in the country and has been for awhile. I can accept Schmidt's preference for POM, even if I don't agree with it.

Has he ever started a 6 Nations or World cup match? I know he's had injuries but has he ever started a single game at that level? It looks like Joe agrees with my judgement, maybe he knows a bit more than all of us?

Faugheen

Gachla wrote: »

Has he ever started a 6 Nations or World cup match? I know he's had injuries but has he ever started a single game at that level? It looks like Joe agrees with my judgement, maybe he knows a bit more than all of us?

You think Schmidt doesn't believe Ruddock isn't good enough for international level?

I'd love to see your basis for that, considering he sees Ruddock as good enough to captain the team.

Gachla

Faugheen wrote: »

Again you're doing him a complete disservice.

'For Leinster he has a superb pack around him' - a pack that he consistently a standout performer in, up there with James Ryan and Tadhg Furlong. How much of that is down to other players around him? Very little, he's part of the reason why Leinster's pack is so good. He takes the pressure of carrying off Conan and Ryan by being an effective carrier himself, he hits every ruck, his tackle count is up there with Van Der Flier's more often than not and he's a line-out option.

That's all down to him, not everyone else around him.

There's a difference between club level and top international level! Like I said, he's a very good player, just not good enough!

Gachla

Faugheen wrote: »

You think Schmidt doesn't believe Ruddock isn't good enough for international level?

I'd love to see your basis for that, considering he sees Ruddock as good enough to captain the team.

I never said that.

How many 6 Nations and World cup games has he started?

Former Former

Here, this Ruddock lad. Is he any good or what?

Faugheen

Gachla wrote: »

There's a difference between club level and top international level!

So it's gone from 'he has a superb Leinster pack around him' to 'there's a big difference between club and international level'. Which is it?

Gachla wrote: »

I never said that.

Ah but you did.

Gachla wrote: »

Like I said, he's a very good player, just not good enough!

You have given me no reason to believe that you have watched play that much.

Gachla wrote: »

How many 6 Nations and World cup games has he started?

I genuinely don't know, but it's probably very few due to POM and Stander, which again nobody is arguing. It's very possible to have 3 excellent 6s and fantastic depth across the back-row.

You clearly don't think he's good enough but you've just given me generic statements and moved the goalposts when challenged.

AbusesToilets

Gachla wrote: »

I never said that.

How many 6 Nations and World cup games has he started?

How many HC finals have POM or Stander played in? Stupid argument.

It's been pretty clearly stated that Joe prefers POM and that Ruddock has terrible luck with injuries.