Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Eod100

stephen_n wrote: »

I don’t think it’s a lack of faith in the scrumhalves, more so a preference on Joe’s behalf to leave one sub on the bench till as late as possible. For some probably tactical reason, he’s decided SH is the best position to do this with. It’s been a recurring theme no matter who’s on the bench. If it was purely a confidence thing then it’s a really poor reflection when Murray is playing so badly at the moment.

Dunno can you separate leaving one sub on the bench with subbing the starting scrumhalf though. I kinda get tactical argument, but flipside is fresh sub could inject more pace in game. Maybe it's a case of waiting til a game is wrapped up before subbing. Obviously winning the game is the priority but for other players to gain more experience and to avoid injury to starting scrumhalf sometimes you'd think it could come a bit sooner in a game.

Stone Gossard

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I posted about Earls and mentioned from an ireland point of view, not from a Munster point of view

I do think he might hang up international boots after the World cup. The thing is will he stay with munster?

Last time he was gone to Saracens for a big payday only some deal got pulled out by Joe and the IRFU. I expect if he got an offer from France/England he would be off because he won't get a central contract on renewal.



Munster will not be able to compete with a contract from overseas and he has already said he would move if the money is right, plus the UK suits for other reasons

If he's playing in Ireland for Munster after the world cup... regardless of Central contract or not, he'll still be available for national selection.

As for anything else other than that...it's all guesswork on our part... he's in brilliant form...no dips... he's doing yoga etc to protect his hammies..if he wants to play until he's 35 internationally..he's probably quite capable.

Eod100

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I posted about Earls and mentioned from an ireland point of view, not from a Munster point of view

I do think he might hang up international boots after the World cup. The thing is will he stay with munster?

Last time he was gone to Saracens for a big payday only some deal got pulled out by Joe and the IRFU. I expect if he got an offer from France/England he would be off because he won't get a central contract on renewal.



Munster will not be able to compete with a contract from overseas and he has already said he would move if the money is right, plus the UK suits for other reasons

It's hard to know how close to players are to supposed deals before staying though. Would imagine it could easily be used as leverage for greater salary by a decent agent.

He seems fairly settled with his family and kids in Limerick but guess that doesn't mean he won't move. At the end of the day, players moving are trying to secure greater financial stability in future from what is a fairly short career so wouldn't begrudge him at all if it comes to it.

stephen_n

Eod100 wrote: »

Dunno can you separate leaving one sub on the bench with subbing the starting scrumhalf though. I kinda get tactical argument, but flipside is fresh sub could inject more pace in game. Maybe it's a case of waiting til a game is wrapped up before subbing. Obviously winning the game is the priority but for other players to gain more experience and to avoid injury to starting scrumhalf sometimes you'd think it could come a bit sooner in a game.

I think it goes beyond that though, we’ve had games well and truely wrapped up and yet the starting 9 stays on until at least 70 mins. Through a succession of scrumhalves, Boss, Reddan, Marmion and McGrath, now Cooney too. It’s just the risk of a player going off injured with no one left on the bench, I think.

troyzer

stephen_n wrote: »

I think it goes beyond that though, we’ve had games well and truely wrapped up and yet the starting 9 stays on until at least 70 mins. Through a succession of scrumhalves, Boss, Reddan, Marmion and McGrath, now Cooney too. It’s just the risk of a player going off injured with no one left on the bench, I think.

Why does it seem to uniquely apply to the 9?

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I posted about Earls and mentioned from an ireland point of view, not from a Munster point of view

I do think he might hang up international boots after the World cup. The thing is will he stay with munster?

Last time he was gone to Saracens for a big payday only some deal got pulled out by Joe and the IRFU. I expect if he got an offer from France/England he would be off because he won't get a central contract on renewal.

Munster will not be able to compete with a contract from overseas and he has already said he would move if the money is right, plus the UK suits for other reasons

He just signed an IRFU central contract that will keep him in Munster until 2021 when he will be 35.

Instead of thinking Trimble and Bowe (who both started getting a lot of injuries - TB also had a lot of miles on the clock), think of Earls former team mate Doug Howlett who at the age of 35, injured himself which ended his career, while scoring a try for Munster.

What age was Isa Nacewa when he retired?

jm08

Eod100 wrote: »

It's hard to know how close to players are to supposed deals before staying though. Would imagine it could easily be used as leverage for greater salary by a decent agent.

He seems fairly settled with his family and kids in Limerick but guess that doesn't mean he won't move. At the end of the day, players moving are trying to secure greater financial stability in future from what is a fairly short career so wouldn't begrudge him at all if it comes to it.

From what I recall, Sarries were offering a lot more than what he got with his central contract, the reason why it was down to the last minute was because Nucifora was in Australia. Earls was holding out for a 3 year contract rather than 2 years which is what the IRFU were offering.

Buer

jm08 wrote: »

He just signed an IRFU central contract that will keep him in Munster until 2021 when he will be 35.

He'll be 33 when that deal ends.

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

He just signed an IRFU central contract that will keep him in Munster until 2021 when he will be 35.

Instead of thinking Trimble and Bowe (who both started getting a lot of injuries - TB also had a lot of miles on the clock), think of Earls former team mate Doug Howlett who at the age of 35, injured himself which ended his career, while scoring a try for Munster.

What age was Isa Nacewa when he retired?

He will be 33 at end of deal, going 34 in October of that year....


As I said in original post I was referring to Ireland as this is the Ireland thread. What Earls does with Munster/other clubs is another days discussion

troyzer

jm08 wrote: »

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I posted about Earls and mentioned from an ireland point of view, not from a Munster point of view

I do think he might hang up international boots after the World cup. The thing is will he stay with munster?

Last time he was gone to Saracens for a big payday only some deal got pulled out by Joe and the IRFU. I expect if he got an offer from France/England he would be off because he won't get a central contract on renewal.

Munster will not be able to compete with a contract from overseas and he has already said he would move if the money is right, plus the UK suits for other reasons

He just signed an IRFU central contract that will keep him in Munster until 2021 when he will be 35.

Instead of thinking Trimble and Bowe (who both started getting a lot of injuries - TB also had a lot of miles on the clock), think of Earls former team mate Doug Howlett who at the age of 35, injured himself which ended his career, while scoring a try for Munster.

What age was Isa Nacewa when he retired?

Nacewa was 35 but he also had a two year career break and didn't play test rugby.

Dubinusa

Lowe won't displace Stockdale. Unless through injury. Stockdale is locked down at this point.
Regarding R.B, he is only 23!! The future looks great for him. He's played in some massive European games for Leinster and was very good.
Leo also preferred him to start at oh over Joey.
I think R.B will get more and more match time and will improve.
He's certainly in the mix for the next rwc cycle!

jonok28

Dubinusa wrote: »

Lowe won't displace Stockdale. Unless through injury. Stockdale is locked down at this point.
Regarding R.B, he is only 23!! The future looks great for him. He's played in some massive European games for Leinster and was very good.
Leo also preferred him to start at oh over Joey.
I think R.B will get more and more match time and will improve.
He's certainly in the mix for the next rwc cycle!

What about Lowe at 14? Stockdale and Lowe would be a potentially more prolific version of George North and Alex Cuthbert.

arsebiscuits1

Dubinusa wrote: »

Lowe won't displace Stockdale. Unless through injury. Stockdale is locked down at this point.
Regarding R.B, he is only 23!! The future looks great for him. He's played in some massive European games for Leinster and was very good.
Leo also preferred him to start at oh over Joey.
I think R.B will get more and more match time and will improve.
He's certainly in the mix for the next rwc cycle!

No one is locked down. Especially not for 2 years from now.

Players lose form etc.

I'm not saying that Lowe should replace Stockdale if they were pitted against each other at this moment.

But the thought that Stockdale is guaranteed to be in the drivers seat come the end of 2020 is a bit naive

Burkie1203

jonok28 wrote: »

What about Lowe at 14? Stockdale and Lowe would be a potentially more prolific version of George North and Alex Cuthbert.

Stockdale Lowe Larmour back 3

jonok28

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Stockdale Lowe Larmour back 3

Could be an extremely potent back 3.

Perifect

Lowe leads to make himself look more Irish at least! Hair chop.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He will be 33 at end of deal, going 34 in October of that year....


As I said in original post I was referring to Ireland as this is the Ireland thread. What Earls does with Munster/other clubs is another days discussion

But, as I said to another poster, then why call it 'retiring' at all, when it's evidently not that?

Zzippy

Perifect wrote: »

Lowe leads to make himself look more Irish at least! Hair chop.

Shane Byrne says no.

aloooof

Eod100 wrote: »

Was wondering would there be more rotation in RWC year but maybe not judging by RWC 2015. Was thinking there might be some rotation in Japan to suit our match schedule, Scotland and Japan up first. Then Russia and Samoa.

Could see change for Russia game say. Looking back to RWC 2015, only pool game Murray didn't start (or feature at all) was Romania when Reddan started.

Murray subbed at 66 when we were 32-0 up vs Canada. Not subbed at all for Italy which we won 16-9 (closer than I remembered). Subbed at 77 mins vs France when it was 21-9 up.

I think the way the fixtures fall in this year suits us better than 2015 tho. in 2015, every game was building up towards the French game whereas, this time round, we have our important games front-loaded.

It's much more akin to New Zealands pool of 2015, who had Argentina first up, and were able to rotate then for the the latter games. It'll be interesting to see what way it plays out.

Perifect

Zzippy wrote: »

Shane Byrne says no.

The Lost Sheep

aloooof wrote: »

I think the way the fixtures fall in this year suits us better than 2015 tho. in 2015, every game was building up towards the French game whereas, this time round, we have our important games front-loaded.

It's much more akin to New Zealands pool of 2015, who had Argentina first up, and were able to rotate then for the the latter games. It'll be interesting to see what way it plays out.

Not sure the way fixtures fall really matters as long as we win quarter. We've had it every way really and yet to win a knockout game.

aloooof

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not sure the way fixtures fall really matters as long as we win quarter. We've had it every way really and yet to win a knockout game.

It'd allow players with knocks more of an opportunity to recover, at least. Tho, granted, none of the 4 missing from injury after the France game would've made the Argentina game with a couple of extra weeks, such was the severity of the injuries.

Thinking out loud here as well but I wonder are red cards more likely in tighter games? (I'd assume so but have zero evidence to back it up). If so, it'd allow the opportunity for any potential suspensions to be served against the weaker teams as well.

The Lost Sheep

aloooof wrote: »

It'd allow players with knocks more of an opportunity to recover, at least. Tho, granted, none of the 4 missing from injury after the France game would've made the Argentina game with a couple of extra weeks, such was the severity of the injuries.

Thinking out loud here as well but I wonder are red cards more likely in tighter games? (I'd assume so but have zero evidence to back it up). If so, it'd allow the opportunity for any potential suspensions to be served against the weaker teams as well.

Theyre not more likely IMO.
Look back at other world cups as well and we've still to win one knock out game.

Eod100

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Theyre not more likely IMO.
Look back at other world cups as well and we've still to win one knock out game.

We haven't but I don't think it follows that because we rotated players in previous WCs and didn't win the qf that it wouldn't benefit this time round. Injuries big issue in 2015. Having 2 of the hardest games up front could help with squad rotation and resting starting players.

aloooof

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Theyre not more likely IMO.
Look back at other world cups as well and we've still to win one knock out game.

I'm well aware of that, alas...

Still think there may be a net benefit with the fixture list this time round, tho, with regards keeping the players fresher.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

But, as I said to another poster, then why call it 'retiring' at all, when it's evidently not that?

Retiring from international team......


Very common description

Dubinusa

Nobody should be considered nailed on or 1st on the team sheet. I agree with that. And yes, Stockdale may not be guaranteed anything. No one else is either.
But atm, Stockdale is in the seat.
It wasn't so long ago the posters were saying that Henshaw was nailed on. He's not, and neither is Aki.
Aki is the incumbent however, and he may lose his starting role as he's been patchy lately.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Retiring from international team......


Very common description

Retired? For players who are just no longer selected for International duty? It really isn't. It's why, when you see articles of players retiring, they're only at the time when they've actually, y'know, retired.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

Retired? For players who are just no longer selected for International duty? It really isn't. It's why, when you see articles of players retiring, they're only at the time when they've actually, y'know, retired.

Ahem.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/45659034

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/former-crusaders-star-nemani-nadolo-retires-fiji-national-team?variant=tb_v_1

http://www.espn.com/rugby/story/_/page/TW25159144/all-blacks-captain-kieran-read-retire-international-rugby-2019-world-cup

This is just in the last few months. It's really common to describe stepping away from the international game for whatever reason as retiring.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

Ahem.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/45659034

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/former-crusaders-star-nemani-nadolo-retires-fiji-national-team?variant=tb_v_1

http://www.espn.com/rugby/story/_/page/TW25159144/all-blacks-captain-kieran-read-retire-international-rugby-2019-world-cup

This is just in the last few months. It's really common to describe stepping away from the international game for whatever reason as retiring.

This is precisely my point! Where are people getting this idea that Earls will retire from international duty?? I don't see it!

thomond2006

If you're playing in Ireland you don't retire from Ireland.

Buer

Henderson back in the Ulster team for tomorrow night! Phew.

Will Addison not involved. Either he's injured or he's going to be involved against Italy.

Southdubin6

Buer wrote: »

Henderson back in the Ulster team for tomorrow night! Phew.

Will Addison not involved. Either he's injured or he's going to be involved against Italy.

Id say more then likely drawn into panel for Italy as he isnt injured in any Ulster sit out reports on twitter. Id like to see him get a run.

Southdubin6

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you're playing in Ireland you don't retire from Ireland.

Correct, Retirement usually comes when IRFU arent willing sign a deal. You go further a field then the your career with ireland is done.

Richie_Rich89

I'm hearing that Kilcoyne being selected ahead of Jack McGrath is happening to "incentivise" McGrath to move to Ulster.

aloooof

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I'm hearing that Kilcoyne being selected ahead of Jack McGrath is happening to "incentivise" McGrath to move to Ulster.

I think this is doing Kilcoyne's performances a disservice, tbh.

I also think it's less of an issue with props. Your reserve prop will generally ~20-30 minutes.

Stone Gossard

aloooof wrote: »

I think this is doing Kilcoyne's performances a disservice, tbh.

I also think it's less of an issue with props. Your reserve prop will generally ~20-30 minutes.

I'd say it's more of an out and out lie

stephen_n

Not as if that post deserves a response but, Jack McGrath has been injured for most of the last 3 months. While Kilcoyne has been in brilliant form. Some times the most obvious answer, is the one right in front of you. Kilcoyne is getting selected purely on merit. If the IRFU wanted McGrath to move, the incentive would come in his pay packet. Carrot not stick.

arsebiscuits1

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I'm hearing that Kilcoyne being selected ahead of Jack McGrath is happening to "incentivise" McGrath to move to Ulster.

Politics isn't going to come into the national team selections in the middle of the 6 nations.

I also saw the relevant post and it wasn't a rumour. It was a poster speculating.

It is far more likely The truth is Kilcoyne is playing excellently at the moment while McGrath hasn't been firing on all cylinders since his hip surgery

troyzer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Politics isn't going to come into the national team selections in the middle of the 6 nations.

I also saw the relevant post and it wasn't a rumour. It was a poster speculating.

It is far more likely The truth is Kilcoyne is playing excellently at the moment while McGrath hasn't been firing on all cylinders since his hip surgery

This^

Yours sincerely,

A Leinster fan.

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

It is far more likely The truth is Kilcoyne is playing excellently at the moment while McGrath hasn't been firing on all cylinders since his hip surgery

Since the Lions tour, really to be honest. This isn't the first time he has lost his place in the Irish 23 to Kilcoyne.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

This is precisely my point! Where are people getting this idea that Earls will retire from international duty?? I don't see it!

To go back, it was a discussion of who would leave the Ireland squad after the World Cup....

With Earls age profile he will not make another World Cup, it makes sense that Earls would retire from International rugby to hopefully lenghten his club career with Munster


From Farrell point of view he should drop any player who is not going to make the next World Cup and start with a squad who will all be available.



We have a lot of players with huge experience so it won't be a massive loss

Buer

You cannot make yourself unavailable to the national team if you are playing with a province and Irish qualified. He may not be selected but that will be down to the coaching staff.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

With Earls age profile he will not make another World Cup, it makes sense that Earls would retire from International rugby to hopefully lenghten his club career with Munster

Can you name me one Irish player who has done this?? Who has actively removed themselves from selection?

EDIT: What Buer said.

Rigor Mortis

aloooof wrote: »

Can you name me one Irish player who has done this?? Who has actively removed themselves from selection?

EDIT: What Buer said.

The joke isnt worth the ban:D

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Can you name me one Irish player who has done this?? Who has actively removed themselves from selection?

EDIT: What Buer said.

Can you?

Shefwedfan

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Politics isn't going to come into the national team selections in the middle of the 6 nations.

I also saw the relevant post and it wasn't a rumour. It was a poster speculating.

It is far more likely The truth is Kilcoyne is playing excellently at the moment while McGrath hasn't been firing on all cylinders since his hip surgery

Better chance of him moving to Munster to keep his father in law happy

ClanofLams

It would be foolish to drop anyone who won’t make next World Cup and no way Farrell will do it. There will be guys in that category who still have a lot to offer. Ireland won’t sacrifice their chance at 6N success and more importantly, Farrell will want to get off to as good a start as possible.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

It would be foolish to drop anyone who won’t make next World Cup and no way Farrell will do it. There will be guys in that category who still have a lot to offer. Ireland won’t sacrifice their chance at 6N success and more importantly, Farrell will want to get off to as good a start as possible.

I agree in the pack, but on the wing?? listen to even BOD now and he was talking the other day about getting burned by a Cardiff player when he shouldn't have......D'Arcy stayed on 1 year too long....

Both Trimble and Bowe have said they knew the writing was on the wall when they seen Stockdale coming up behind them and quickly retired....

Earls has been a fantastic player for Ireland but the players coming up behind him...the young wing from Ulster, Lowe will be available, Conway will only be 28 and can make the WC squad, Sweetnam etc

Loads of options.

P.S It is just an opinion...I would say the same about McFadden/D Kearney etc if he was in squad.

troyzer

ClanofLams wrote: »

It would be foolish to drop anyone who won’t make next World Cup and no way Farrell will do it. There will be guys in that category who still have a lot to offer. Ireland won’t sacrifice their chance at 6N success and more importantly, Farrell will want to get off to as good a start as possible.

I agree on this, but only for the first year.

After that, he'll start cutting to develop his players. He won't have a full summer tour in 2021 which is when most of the real blooding and player development happens remember. So he can't afford to keep investing minutes in Sexton, Earls et al if they're simply not going to be there in 2023.

But yes, he'll trot out as strong a team as possible. He'll want a Six Nations win and a successful summer tour to Australia in 2020. After that, I think it'll be all about development.