Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

molloyjh

Ah folks come on, this is someone who thinks that Ruddock doesn't even walk into the Leinster team. (S)He clearly hasn't seen that much of Leinster over the last few years if that's what they believe because it's so absurdly false. I think we can all move on.

Jump_In_Jack

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah folks come on, this is someone who thinks that Ruddock doesn't even walk into the Leinster team. (S)He clearly hasn't seen that much of Leinster over the last few years if that's what they believe because it's so absurdly false. I think we can all move on.

Ruddock is good enough, I’ve no doubt.

However, Fardy was starting ahead of him, no?

jm08

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Saying Ruddock isn't up to top level rugby is laughable man, straight up. Joe might not select him, for reasons, but the fact is he's been a key part of multiple winning teams for Leinster, has been a standout performer for the national team against top opposition, and has been recognised as captain material at every level he's played at.

Everyone has their favorites and biases, only natural. I'm a huge fan of Ruddocks, I'll die on the hill that he's the best 6 in the country and has been for awhile. I can accept Schmidt's preference for POM, even if I don't agree with it.

He has played one game at international level against a top side (SA in 2016*) in the last 3 years. His other starts for Ireland have been USA, Japan, Fiji, (Italy in Chicago) and USA.


*The game which Ireland lost 32-26.

AbusesToilets

jm08 wrote: »

He has played one game at international level against a top side (SA in 2016*) in the last 3 years. His other starts for Ireland have been USA, Japan, Fiji, (Italy in Chicago) and USA.


*The game which Ireland lost 32-26.

A timeline which conveniently cuts off the WC, where he played in the 1/4 to boot. That record also clearly illustrates his unfortunate ability to get injured right before the international season kicks off.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

He has played one game at international level against a top side (SA in 2016*) in the last 3 years. His other starts for Ireland have been USA, Japan, Fiji, (Italy in Chicago) and USA.


*The game which Ireland lost 32-26.

How many games against top sides was he injury free for during that period?

Gachla

Faugheen wrote: »

So it's gone from 'he has a superb Leinster pack around him' to 'there's a big difference between club and international level'. Which is it?



Ah but you did.



You have given me no reason to believe that you have watched play that much.



I genuinely don't know, but it's probably very few due to POM and Stander, which again nobody is arguing. It's very possible to have 3 excellent 6s and fantastic depth across the back-row.

You clearly don't think he's good enough but you've just given me generic statements and moved the goalposts when challenged.

Both!

Why are you being dishonest? I've stated numerous times what I mean by not good enough.

He hasn't been selected to start any 6 Nations or world cup games has he? So it's not just me who doesn't think he's good enough for the top level.

Gachla

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How many HC finals have POM or Stander played in? Stupid argument.

It's been pretty clearly stated that Joe prefers POM and that Ruddock has terrible luck with injuries.

Joe clearly thinks Ruddock isn't at the same level as those players, hence he selects them over him. This is the top level, it's not a criticism of Ruddock.

irelandrover

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah folks come on, this is someone who thinks that Ruddock doesn't even walk into the Leinster team. (S)He clearly hasn't seen that much of Leinster over the last few years if that's what they believe because it's so absurdly false. I think we can all move on.

Didn't Fardy start ahead of Ruddock in the Champions cup final?

jm08

AbusesToilets wrote: »

A timeline which conveniently cuts off the WC, where he played in the 1/4 to boot. That record also clearly illustrates his unfortunate ability to get injured right before the international season kicks off.

He has played Argentina (there), SA and Aus in Lansdowne Road in 2014.

He played 11 minutes at the last world cup. He was on the bench v. Argentina. Jordi Murphy started at 6 with Chris Henry and Jamie Heaslip.

His injury profile really does go against him. The complee opposite to Jamie Heaslip whose amazing durability really contributed to his career.

aloooof

I don't want to be on the side having a go at Ruddock, but for those saying his injury profile has gone against him, would you have expected him to start against Tier 1 opposition if he hadn't been injured?

He's never been picked as the first choice at 6 while he's been fit.

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How many HC finals have POM or Stander played in? Stupid argument.

Ah here... It's obvious why your above comparision is ridiculous but here goes. Since 2012:

HC Finals POM and Stander have started: 0
HC Finals Munster have played in: 0

6 Nations or RWC matches Ruddock has started: 0
6 Nations or RWC matches Ireland have played: 40+

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's been pretty clearly stated that Joe prefers POM and that Ruddock has terrible luck with injuries.

It's much more the former than the latter tho. He's never been selected as first choice 6 even when fit, to my knowledge.

Gachla

No one's having a go at Ruddock! He's just not in the same class as the others. He's been injured quite a bit but even when he's not injured he gets overlooked for Ireland. Obviously, O'Mahony gets picked in front of him but Standar is also placed ahead at 6, not to mention Henderson, even Murphy and Tommy O Donnell got in ahead of him in the past. Some here are claiming Ruddock is a superior player to all of these. That goes against Joe's thinking on the matter and what the Lions management think also.

molloyjh

irelandrover wrote: »

Didn't Fardy start ahead of Ruddock in the Champions cup final?

Yes, but that was because Rhys was coming back from a head knock at the time and had been a doubt to even feature in the 23. If you go back to the pool stages when all the relevant locks and back rows were last fit at the same time Ruddock was starting with Fardy on the bench.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

I don't want to be on the side having a go at Ruddock, but for those saying his injury profile has gone against him, would you have expected him to start against Tier 1 opposition if he hadn't been injured?

He's never been picked as the first choice at 6 while he's been fit.

Yes I would.... injuries have a huge affect on peoples chances and other people get in front



If Heaslip got injured would you expect POM to be the starting 6? no he wouldn't. The combination of Heaslip at 8 and Standar at 6 was brill. The starting combination for first NZ win was Heaslip/Murphy/Standar with JvDF off bench. The view was SOB comes back for the return and take Murphy spot....

Similar story the next 6 nations. POM only got in after Heaslip pulled out of England game......

molloyjh

Gachla wrote: »

No one's having a go at Ruddock! He's just not in the same class as the others. He's been injured quite a bit but even when he's not injured he gets overlooked for Ireland. Obviously, O'Mahony gets picked in front of him but Standar is also placed ahead at 6, not to mention Henderson, even Murphy and Tommy O Donnell got in ahead of him in the past. Some here are claiming Ruddock is a superior player to all of these. That goes against Joe's thinking on the matter and what the Lions management think also.

Please stop. TOD plays in a different position and Murphy has the versatility which means you cant compare him to Ruddock. Rhys is a fantastic blindside who has been unfortunate to be playing at a time when we have a world class player in POM competing with him. Rhys is good enough to play international rugby at the top level. He is also Leinsters first choice blindside. You've consistently made inaccurate claims and moved the goalposts to suit. Most people here are in agreement. If Rhys was asked to step in he would be more than capable. Hes just behind POM and lacks the versatility to provide bench cover the way someone like Jordi would.

irishbucsfan

aloooof wrote: »

I don't want to be on the side having a go at Ruddock, but for those saying his injury profile has gone against him, would you have expected him to start against Tier 1 opposition if he hadn't been injured?

He's never been picked as the first choice at 6 while he's been fit.

The first half of last season before he got injured he was arguably the form back row in the country.

Who knows where he’d be if he was actually able to keep a run of fitness through a season. He hasn’t though and that leaves I’m third choice and struggling to make the squad. That’s the reality of it.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes I would.... injuries have a huge affect on peoples chances and other people get in front

If Heaslip got injured would you expect POM to be the starting 6? no he wouldn't. The combination of Heaslip at 8 and Standar at 6 was brill. The starting combination for first NZ win was Heaslip/Murphy/Standar with JvDF off bench. The view was SOB comes back for the return and take Murphy spot....

Similar story the next 6 nations. POM only got in after Heaslip pulled out of England game......

You're talking about injuries to others affording opportunities. That's not what I was asking tho. If both Ruddock and POM were uninjured, who would you have been expecting to start?

Former Former

Sorry for going off-topic on the Rhys Ruddock thread... But is tomorrow's selection a bad omen for John Cooney?

So McGrath starts and Marmion benches. You'd assume Marmion will get a start and that Murray will get two, to have him up to speed for Japan. So Cooney might not get a proper chance?

(Same logic applies to Ross Byrne, but I don't think many people rated his chances very highly anyway.)

sydthebeat

Former Former wrote: »

Sorry for going off-topic on the Rhys Ruddock thread... But is tomorrow's selection a bad omen for John Cooney?

So McGrath starts and Marmion benches. You'd assume Marmion will get a start and that Murray will get two, to have him up to speed for Japan. So Cooney might not get a proper chance?

(Same logic applies to Ross Byrne, but I don't think many people rated his chances very highly anyway.)

i dunno.... id see the England game as more of a indicator whos towards the top of the selectors minds... and in that aspect, selection for this game is a bit of a poison chalice.......do well and its "just italy" ... do poorly and your out.

thsi is assuming the 2 welsh games are to be used to tighten the screws using what will be the practical 31 squad.

So if cooney gets a run out

aloooof

Is it likely we'll only take 2 SH's anyways, tho? In which case, you'd have to think it'd be Murray and Marmion (barring injury). Tho, in the last RWC when Payne was injured, he was replaced by Boss, so it's still possible they'll bring 3, depending on the makeup of the rest of the squad.

Squidgy Black

Former Former wrote: »

Sorry for going off-topic on the Rhys Ruddock thread... But is tomorrow's selection a bad omen for John Cooney?

So McGrath starts and Marmion benches. You'd assume Marmion will get a start and that Murray will get two, to have him up to speed for Japan. So Cooney might not get a proper chance?

(Same logic applies to Ross Byrne, but I don't think many people rated his chances very highly anyway.)

I think so. He might get a few minutes from the bench for one of the games, maybe when Marmion gets his start, but for Murray's starts I'd expect to see McGrath and Marmion on the bench respectively.

aloooof

Are we expecting all the first team to get 2 starts? If so, it leaves one of Scanell or Cronin not getting a start also.

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes I would.... injuries have a huge affect on peoples chances and other people get in front

If Heaslip got injured would you expect POM to be the starting 6? no he wouldn't. The combination of Heaslip at 8 and Standar at 6 was brill. The starting combination for first NZ win was Heaslip/Murphy/Standar with JvDF off bench. The view was SOB comes back for the return and take Murphy spot....

POM was out for about 14 months after the last world cup through injury. Thats when CJ played at 6 with Heaslip at No. 8. The 6Ns that season Ireland lost to France and England and a draw with Wales. They did well in SA, but CJ was red carded early.

Next 6ns Ireland lost to Scotland and Wales. That was Heaslip's last game. Ireland Won against England in Lansdowne Road with POM at Blindside and CJ at No. 8. After that, Ireland won two 6Ns (one GS with POM at 6).


That would suggest that the best combination is with POM at 6 and CJ at 8. The reason why POM wasn't selected earlier when everyone was available was because he was coming back from a long injury. Schmidt did something similar with Keith Earls when he was coming back from a long injury.

thebaz

Former Former wrote: »

Sorry for going off-topic on the Rhys Ruddock thread... But is tomorrow's selection a bad omen for John Cooney?

So McGrath starts and Marmion benches. You'd assume Marmion will get a start and that Murray will get two, to have him up to speed for Japan. So Cooney might not get a proper chance?

Think a lot will depend on Murrays form , or lack of - if we get the Murray of old , Ireland I believe will have a good WC, if we get the Murray of last year , and his poor form continues I woryy , big time.
Schmidt is loyal to Murray , and for some reason doesn't really rate/trust Cooney.

thebaz

weather tomorrow is going to be dire - first game of season , against Italy , the game really is not going to reveal too much.

molloyjh

I'd say certain players will be deemed low enough risk from that perspective. The likes of Best and Sexton could well only get 1 start and then maybe a bench spot too. I would say the minutes each play will be judged on a case by case basis. Likelihood of injury, ability to reach form with a minimum of game time etc. But it will be interesting to see all right.

AbusesToilets

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd say certain players will be deemed low enough risk from that perspective. The likes of Best and Sexton could well only get 1 start and then maybe a bench spot too. I would say the minutes each play will be judged on a case by case basis. Likelihood of injury, ability to reach form with a minimum of game time etc. But it will be interesting to see all right.

Be interested to see how Joe approaches Murray; is he going to try and play him into form again?

swiwi_

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Be interested to see how Joe approaches Murray; is he going to try and play him into form again?

Use of the semi-colon always adds a touch of gravitas.

awec

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Be interested to see how Joe approaches Murray; is he going to try and play him into form again?

Of course he will.

This has consistently been Schmidt's approach to Murray and Sexton. Both of them were the worst players in green during the Six Nations, both of them got to play 70+ minutes every game even when stinking the place out.

It is clear that Schmidt does not rate or trust his backup half backs, which is frustrating given the complaints he had about backup half backs in 2015. But we are were we are.

Gachla

molloyjh wrote: »

Please stop. TOD plays in a different position and Murphy has the versatility which means you cant compare him to Ruddock. Rhys is a fantastic blindside who has been unfortunate to be playing at a time when we have a world class player in POM competing with him. Rhys is good enough to play international rugby at the top level. He is also Leinsters first choice blindside. You've consistently made inaccurate claims and moved the goalposts to suit. Most people here are in agreement. If Rhys was asked to step in he would be more than capable. Hes just behind POM and lacks the versatility to provide bench cover the way someone like Jordi would.

The facts are that all these players have been picked ahead of him. O'Mahony, Standar, Henderson, Murphy. I've stated numerous times that he's a very good player. The Lions coaches and Joe Schmidt think he's not at the top level and I agree with them. I think Gatland and Schmidt know a lot more than you or I.

sydthebeat

Gachla wrote: »

The facts are that all these players have been picked ahead of him. O'Mahony, Standar, Henderson, Murphy. I've stated numerous times that he's a very good player. The Lions coaches and Joe Schmidt think he's not at the top level and I agree with them. I think Gatland and Schmidt know a lot more than you or I.

Gatland??

so the stick beating Ruddock now is that hes not a lion??

wow

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

POM was out for about 14 months after the last world cup through injury. Thats when CJ played at 6 with Heaslip at No. 8. The 6Ns that season Ireland lost to France and England and a draw with Wales. They did well in SA, but CJ was red carded early.

Next 6ns Ireland lost to Scotland and Wales. That was Heaslip's last game. Ireland Won against England in Lansdowne Road with POM at Blindside and CJ at No. 8. After that, Ireland won two 6Ns (one GS with POM at 6).


That would suggest that the best combination is with POM at 6 and CJ at 8. The reason why POM wasn't selected earlier when everyone was available was because he was coming back from a long injury. Schmidt did something similar with Keith Earls when he was coming back from a long injury.

Heaslip would be starting 8 if he was still fit and playing.....

Before his injury nobody was in the mix to replace him at 8.....

Some fans might argue about that but they had done that for years and Heaslip was still the first name on team sheet.....

P.S we only won 1 6 nations since last WC....2 x England and 1 x Wales

Gachla

sydthebeat wrote: »

Gatland??

so the stick beating Ruddock now is that hes not a lion??

wow

I didn't make the claim that he was better than O'Mahony and Standar! That was others so take it up with them. And once again, no one is criticising Ruddock!

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Some fans might argue about that but they had done that for years and Heaslip was still the first name on team sheet.....

Sounds a bit like the current Ruddock vs POM debate.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Sounds a bit like the Ruddock vs POM debate.

Ahh sure if you are going to change the goal posts on every post why do you actually bother?


Why not say it is Ruddock v Zebo next....

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ahh sure if you are going to change the goal posts on every post why do you actually bother?


Why not say it is Ruddock v Zebo next....

What goalposts moving?? I've said it plenty, Ruddock has never been picked as first choice 6 for Ireland.

Gachla

aloooof wrote: »

What goalposts moving?? I've said it plenty, Ruddock has never been picked as first choice 6 for Ireland.

He's never started a 6 nations or world cup game yet some are saying he's better than 2 lions players! It's actually incredible.

Let's move on from that. These warm up games are usually muck. A wet day won't help at all. Some players have to go for it to try to force themselves up the ladder but others trying to avoid injury won't help their cause.

awec

I think we've all heard enough now. Move on please.

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Heaslip would be starting 8 if he was still fit and playing.....

Before his injury nobody was in the mix to replace him at 8.....

Some fans might argue about that but they had done that for years and Heaslip was still the first name on team sheet.....

P.S we only won 1 6 nations since last WC....2 x England and 1 x Wales

Heaslip might - but POM would still be the starting blindside. POM has won 2 6Ns plus a GS (in 14, 15 & 18). Apologies, of course the 2015 6Ns was before the 2015 world cup.


As for no one on the horizon - CJ was playing No. 8 for Munster so was on the horizon.

sydthebeat

Gachla wrote: »

I didn't make the claim that he was better than O'Mahony and Standar!

did anyone??

are you actually having an argument with yourself here?

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

What goalposts moving?? I've said it plenty, Ruddock has never been picked as first choice 6 for Ireland.

Yeah you have said lots.....most irrelvant and trying to twist every post from other people......



But sure if your happy Im happy

Gachla

sydthebeat wrote: »

did anyone??

are you actually having an argument with yourself here?

Yes but we're moving on now.

Let's talk about the upcoming matches. Will anyone jump from the pack? I think it's probably too late but of course, we'll probably pick up some injuries sadly.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yeah you have said lots.....most irrelvant and trying to twist every post from other people......

But sure if your happy Im happy

Twist? I presume you can refute the fact that he's never started a 6 Nations or RWC game, then?

EDIT: apologies, just seen the mod warning.

I think if Ireland can get over the line against Italy tomorrow the World Cup itself should be a cakewalk.

All of Ireland's losses under Joe have been part of a carefully crafted misdirection exercise building upto our inevitable glory in Japan. Even the losses in the last world Cup.

Joe 'four dimensional' Schmidt has it all under control, but if we do somehow lose, it will definitely be Munster's fault.

I think we need a build up thread for tomorrow.

Shefwedfan

So from the list of players starting tomorrow......this is my guess on who is currently going to WC and who is outside the squad

For those outside this is chance to show they should be in WC squad

Player/Club/Province/Caps
15. Jordan Larmour - WC
14. Andrew Conway - Not
13. Garry Ringrose - WC
12. Chris Farrell - WC
11. Dave Kearney - Not
10. Joey Carbery - WC
9. Luke McGrath - Not

1. Jack McGrath - WC
2. Rob Herring - Not
3. Andrew Porter - WC
4. Devin Toner - WC
5. Jean Kleyn - Not
6. Rhys Ruddock - Not
7. Tommy O’Donnell - Not
8. Jordi Murphy - WC

Replacements
16. Niall Scannell - WC
17. Cian Healy - WC
18. John Ryan - Not
19. Iain Henderson - WC
20. Tadhg Beirne - Not
21. Kieran Marmion - WC
22. Jack Carty - WC
23. Mike Haley - Not

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So from the list of players starting tomorrow......this is my guess on who is currently going to WC and who is outside the squad

For those outside this is chance to show they should be in WC squad

Player/Club/Province/Caps
15. Jordan Larmour - WC
14. Andrew Conway - Not
13. Garry Ringrose - WC
12. Chris Farrell - WC
11. Dave Kearney - Not
10. Joey Carbery - WC
9. Luke McGrath - Not

1. Jack McGrath - WC
2. Rob Herring - Not
3. Andrew Porter - WC
4. Devin Toner - WC
5. Jean Kleyn - Not
6. Rhys Ruddock - Not
7. Tommy O’Donnell - Not
8. Jordi Murphy - WC

Replacements
16. Niall Scannell - WC
17. Cian Healy - WC
18. John Ryan - Not
19. Iain Henderson - WC
20. Tadhg Beirne - Not
21. Kieran Marmion - WC
22. Jack Carty - WC
23. Mike Haley - Not

No Kleyn or Beirne.... Dillane cut and Roux not in squad

so whos your 4th lock?

Squidgy Black

sydthebeat wrote: »

No Kleyn or Beirne.... Dillane cut and Roux not in squad

so whos your 4th lock?

Ruddock obviously duh. Have you not read the last 4 pages?!?

Henry Ford III

All credit to opinion but there's an awful lot of uninformed blinkered stuff being trotted out here - multiple times by the same posters.

Repetition doesn't strengthen any viewpoint or argument.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

All credit to opinion but there's an awful lot of uninformed blinkered stuff being trotted out here - multiple times by the same posters.

Repetition doesn't strengthen any viewpoint or argument.

This should be repeated ad nauseum

Shefwedfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Ruddock obviously duh. Have you not read the last 4 pages?!?

Opp's......maybe read my post

I said Ruddock - Not....