Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

guapos

They should really allow bigger WC squads
3 LH
3 H
3 TH
4 2nd rows
6 back row
3 SH
3 OH
4 centres
5 OB

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I expect changes so if fit Ryan and Henderson v Scotland and Toner and Kleyn v Japan

Kearney at FB for Scotland but maybe Larmour v japan

The starting front row v Scotland on bench v Japan etc...it’s a short turn around and Scotland will be tough and Japan will try run us off the park....playing a load of tired players won’t work

Changing the entire front 5 just won't happen. The absolute max number of changes I'd expect to see in the starting 15 would be 3, injuries aside.

Mr Tickle

guapos wrote: »

They should really allow bigger WC squads
3 LH
3 H
3 TH
4 2nd rows
6 back row
3 SH
3 OH
4 centres
5 OB

Is the counter point that this would favour bigger nations?

Jump_In_Jack

guapos wrote: »

They should really allow bigger WC squads
3 LH
3 H
3 TH
4 2nd rows
6 back row
3 SH
3 OH
4 centres
5 OB

The difference from what you’re proposing and what we have now is:
Not having to swap two third choice props for one that covers both sides,
Not having to bring a lock that can cover the back row,
Not having to bring an out-half that can cover centre or back 3, or a player that can cover centre and back 3.

It’s not that bad really.
It arguably makes it a bit easier for the smaller nations to compete with fewer players.

Cookiemunster

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Is the counter point that this would favour bigger nations?

But you can replace injured players anyway, so why not just bring them in a larger initial squad? It's not like the current rules make any difference to who make the quarter finals.

molloyjh

Former Former wrote: »

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I expect changes so if fit Ryan and Henderson v Scotland and Toner and Kleyn v Japan

Kearney at FB for Scotland but maybe Larmour v japan

The starting front row v Scotland on bench v Japan etc...it’s a short turn around and Scotland will be tough and Japan will try run us off the park....playing a load of tired players won’t work

It's a six day turnaround, we shouldn't need to rest anyone. I'd be extremely surprised if we don't go full strength against Japan.

I'd be very surprised of we did go full strength. I expect a bit of rotation in the Japan and Russia games with certain players like Best and Sexton only playing 2 pool games.

Mr Tickle

Cookiemunster wrote: »

But you can replace injured players anyway, so why not just bring them in a larger initial squad? It's not like the current rules make any difference to who make the quarter finals.

Well i'm still trying to put the idea together in my head but bear with me.

I suppose the fact that when a guy is cut he can't come back means that the bigger teams might be forced to rotate more against the minnows and potentially make the games more competitive.

Like say a NZ winger has a bit of a twinge that might last a week. They now have to think about having a centre cover that position for their game against Uruguay as opposed to sending him home and just taking the next cab off the rank and having a specialist.

If the same thing happens to Georgia their pool is so much shallower that they'd want to keep the guy around for the next round so would have to make do.


It's unlikely to decide a tournament but the thinking must be somewhere along these lines.

thomond2006

If you allow for larger squads you'll have a 2005 Lions situation where the larger sides name complete second string 23s for minnow games.

salmocab

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you allow for larger squads you'll have a 2005 Lions situation where the larger sides name complete second string 23s for minnow games.

I’d be happy enough going to say 32/33 with maybe a proviso that you must name 9 frontrows. Going beyond that would be too far I think.

errlloyd

I wish they could bring say 4 "apprentices", young players who aren't allowed to be called up, but who can fill in at training. One of the biggest issues seem to be that if you've 5 players with knocks and a 6 day turnaround you have physios and **** filling in at training. Itd be a cool opportunity for some youngsters and solve what is apparently a problem.

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you allow for larger squads you'll have a 2005 Lions situation where the larger sides name complete second string 23s for minnow games.

yeah which isnt what's needed at biggest competition in the sport

salmocab wrote: »

I’d be happy enough going to say 32/33 with maybe a proviso that you must name 9 frontrows. Going beyond that would be too far I think.

errlloyd wrote: »

I wish they could bring say 4 "apprentices", young players who aren't allowed to be called up, but who can fill in at training. One of the biggest issues seem to be that if you've 5 players with knocks and a 6 day turnaround you have physios and **** filling in at training. Itd be a cool opportunity for some youngsters and solve what is apparently a problem.

except most youngsters would benefit far more from staying at home and stepping up to play in the pro14/top 14betc
Unions can always do more to call up "apprentices" for november/June tests.

molloyjh

I think adding 2 more and possibly enforcing a 9 front row rule would make sense. 33 with a make up of:

3 LHs
3 HKs
3 THs
4 LKs + a 5.5
1 BS
2 OSs
1 N8 + a utility back row

2 SHs
3 OHs
2 ICs
2 OCs
3 WGs
1 FBs + a utility back

EDIT: I see salmocab gotnin before me...

thomond2006

33 makes sense.

ArmchairQB

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

He went off after 20-25 mins against Scotland this season I think, and we had a rest week after which enabled him to play the next match. No such luxury in a RWC. He's missed plenty of games for Leinster.

Sexton will only play a handful of games for Leinster mainly HC games and the odd Pro 14 semi or finals

andymx11

Irish times now reporting JC out for 6 weeks..

Mr Tickle

andymx11 wrote: »

Irish times now reporting JC out for 6 weeks..

Last time he was only out for three days

Faugheen

I genuinely don't think I'd bring Carbery if he's out for 6 weeks.

I would have been fine with the 4 that the Indo was initially reporting because it gives him time to get back to full fitness for Scotland. 6 leaves him battling to get fit for the Japan game.

I'm hearing Cooney got cut last night from the squad

AbusesToilets

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm hearing Cooney got cut last night from the squad

Harsh if true, he hasn't been given much of a chance to impress.

Mr Tickle

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Harsh if true, he hasn't been given much of a chance to impress.

and i thought his stock might have risen given that he kicks goals

Henry Ford III

andymx11 wrote: »

Irish times now reporting JC out for 6 weeks..

I don't believe them tbh.

Squidgy Black

Mr Tickle wrote: »

and i thought his stock might have risen given that he kicks goals

Has also stood in at 10 a few times for Connacht and Ulster.

ionadnapokot

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Harsh if true, he hasn't been given much of a chance to impress.

i think he was only going if they were bringing 2 OH's & 3 SH's.
Now it looks like 3 OH's will have to go. & Maybe just 2 SH's
Interesting numbers for the minutes played by the 3rd SH and 3rd Hooker in RWC 15 & 11
https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1159094315995553794

AbusesToilets

ionadnapokot wrote: »

i think he was only going if they were bringing 2 OH's & 3 SH's.
Now it looks like 3 OH's will have to go. & Maybe just 2 SH's
Interesting numbers for the minutes played by the 3rd SH and 3rd Hooker in RWC 15 & 11
https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1159094315995553794

It's one area I think Joe has got dead wrong. He wasted the 6ns trying to force Murray into form.

Burkie1203

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's one area I think Joe has got dead wrong. He wasted the 6ns trying to force Murray into form.

Murray needs to play 2 of the next 3 games minimum. And he needs to play well.

ionadnapokot

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's one area I think Joe has got dead wrong. He wasted the 6ns trying to force Murray into form.

It will be worth it IF Murray does start to get back into the groove for Scottish game

Mr Tickle

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Has also stood in at 10 a few times for Connacht and Ulster.

He has. Personally i don't think he does it well enough to consider it for Ireland at a WC. Unless there was a freak run of injuries in a game.

Still though it seems like an odd call right this moment.

AdamD

Mr Tickle wrote: »

and i thought his stock might have risen given that he kicks goals

All of our 10s kick goals, it doesn't really help him much.

AbusesToilets

Mr Tickle wrote: »

He has. Personally i don't think he does it well enough to consider it for Ireland at a WC. Unless there was a freak run of injuries in a game.

Still though it seems like an odd call right this moment.

I think he's a simply a better sh than McGrath tbh, have him as 3rd best

Mr Tickle

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I think he's a simply a better sh than McGrath tbh, have him as 3rd best

Based on last season i think so too.

If i was picking the squad i'd probably only have two 9's so i don't think he'd make it anyway. He'd be the next in line for me though.

arsebiscuits1

Mr Tickle wrote: »

and i thought his stock might have risen given that he kicks goals

Ringrose, Murray and the 10s are all kicking options too.

While it's a nice bonus there are a lot of options around him

aloooof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Ringrose, Murray and the 10s are all kicking options too.

While it's a nice bonus there are a lot of options around him

I dunno why, but this is reminded me of the days when Kearney was considered a great option for a boomer of drop goal.

Buer

With Carbery set for a spell on the sidelines and no guarantee that he doesn't have a blip or struggle with mobility upon his immediate return, they'll almost certainly bring Carty (although I thought his performance at the weekend was his worst in green). This means they're unlikely to bring 3 scrumhalves. Cooney (and probably McGrath) was screwed the moment Carbery went down.

Former Former

TBH the versatility and goal-kicking things were never really an argument for Cooney. He has always been behind L McGrath in Joe's eyes I think so it was a big ask.

I expect McGrath to be left behind also so net effect probably not huge.

redmca2

Assuming there will be 3 out halves in the 31, what are the thoughts on Carty vs Byrne?

salmocab

redmca2 wrote: »

Assuming there will be 3 out halves in the 31, what are the thoughts on Carty vs Byrne?

It’ll be Carty, although I think there is very little to pick between them. Carty has the jersey currently so I would think it’s unlikely to change. That obviously assumes Carbery is fit otherwise both will be going and probably would get a start each in the group

aloooof

redmca2 wrote: »

Assuming there will be 3 out halves in the 31, what are the thoughts on Carty vs Byrne?

Carty appears to be the front-runner, his inclusion over Byrne was a talking point when the 6 Nations squad was announced. He had some cameo's and showed some good moments.

Shefwedfan

redmca2 wrote: »

Assuming there will be 3 out halves in the 31, what are the thoughts on Carty vs Byrne?

If Carberry is fit then Carty travels.

if Carberry isn't fit then Byrne will travel as well


The Carty v Byrne conversation was done to death at 6 nations.

Faugheen

Still don't think there's a better match-winning out-half (after Sexton) than Byrne.

Shefwedfan

Faugheen wrote: »

Still don't think there's a better match-winning out-half (after Sexton) than Byrne.

Neither do I but Joe seems to have other idea's....

Based on the Heineken Cup performance alone this season I would have Byrne on the plane....


His ability to slot into a team if Sexton picks up an injury without the team having to change the style would be seen as a huge plus to me....

But then I dont pick the team so he wont travel unless Carberry is out....

Faugheen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Neither do I but Joe seems to have other idea's....

Based on the Heineken Cup performance alone this season I would have Byrne on the plane....


His ability to slot into a team if Sexton picks up an injury without the team having to change the style would be seen as a huge plus to me....

But then I dont pick the team so he wont travel unless Carberry is out....

Oh I get that and I accepted it a long time ago, just interested in what Joe is seeing that we're not.

Buer

redmca2 wrote: »

Assuming there will be 3 out halves in the 31, what are the thoughts on Carty vs Byrne?

I'd be surprised if Byrne's inclusion is anything more than to keep him involved in the event of an injury occurs. Carty has benched (and done well) in the 6N. Byrne has a couple of tier 2 caps. Whoever travels as third choice will be an injury away from being in the 23 for a RWC quarter final. I'd be shocked if Schmidt jettisoned Carty now. He has invested in him and Carty has repaid the faith when called upon.

EachSmallChime

Faugheen wrote: »

Oh I get that and I accepted it a long time ago, just interested in what Joe is seeing that we're not.

Probably Connacht Rugby games

ClanofLams

Carty has more to his game than Byrne, he will make breaks Byrne isn’t capable of.

ClanofLams

ClanofLams wrote: »

Carty has more to his game than Byrne, he will make breaks Byrne isn’t capable of.

So would Bauden Barrett but that doesn't automatically translate to being a top class 10.

I'm not sold on Carbery, Byrne or Carty. Carbery and Byrne have delivered in bigger fixtures however.

ClanofLams

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So would Bauden Barrett but that doesn't automatically translate to being a top class 10.

I'm not sold on Carbery, Byrne or Carty. Carbery and Byrne have delivered in bigger fixtures however.

That’s fair enough. I was mainly just answering in relation to what Schmidt sees in Carty to have him ahead of Byrne. Carty has delivered for Ireland in the limited time he has got so far.

Jump_In_Jack

Discussing the make up of the 31 and just throwing an idea out there,

Why can’t we go with:

17 forwards:
3xHookers
3xLoose-head props
3xTight-head props
3xLocks
4xBack-rows
1xLock/back-row hybrid, e.g. Beirne

14 backs:
3xScrum-halves
3xOut-halves
3xCentres
4xBack-threes
1xCentre/back-three hybrid, e.g. Addison

Therefore,
Best, 2 from Cronin/Scannell/Herring
Healy, Kilcoyne, McGrath
Furlong, 2 from Ryan/Porter/Bealham
Ryan, Henderson, 1 from Toner/Kleyn
O’Mahony, Van der Flier, Stander, 1 from Conan/Murphy/O’Donnell
Beirne
Murray, Marmion, 1 from Cooney/McGrath
Sexton, Carty, Byrne
Aki, Ringrose, 1 from Henshaw/Farrell
Stockdale, Earls, R.Kearney, 1 from Conway/Larmour
Addison

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

That’s fair enough. I was mainly just answering in relation to what Schmidt sees in Carty to have him ahead of Byrne. Carty has delivered for Ireland in the limited time he has got so far.

Delivered what?

Bits of him I have seen he done ok but hasn't really done anything special.

Not having a pop at him but I haven't really see him do anything that would say to me why he is number 3...or even pushing Carberry for number 2

Carberry on the other hand has shown why he is number 2 and really after last week if he wasn't injured you could see call for just trying to get him onto the pitch as he adds something extra....

aloooof

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

3xLocks
4xBack-rows
1xLock/back-row hybrid, e.g. Beirne

Imo, it'd leave you very tight on back-rows. Basically, all you're 2nd rows and back-rows travelling are in your match-day 23, leaving your lock/back-row hybrid
as the reserve for 2 positions. Not ideal, especially for back-row, which is probably the most attritional position.

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Delivered what?

Bits of him I have seen he done ok but hasn't really done anything special.

Not having a pop at him but I haven't really see him do anything that would say to me why he is number 3...or even pushing Carberry for number 2

Carberry on the other hand has shown why he is number 2 and really after last week if he wasn't injured you could see call for just trying to get him onto the pitch as he adds something extra....

He’s come on and done well in three six nations games, some excellent kicking against France in particular. He’s delivered in that he has performed in the limited time he has got in the shirt.

He’s ahead of Byrne because he’s a far bigger threat with ball in hand.