Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Squidgy Black

Carty also isn't playing behind one of the best packs in Europe. I know it's the old cliche of "armchair ride", but Carty is working with generally a lot less clean and fast ball compared to Byrne does when playing behind the starting Leinster pack.

Henry Ford III

Byrne is one of the slowest players in the squad I heard.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

He’s come on and done well in three six nations games, some excellent kicking against France in particular. He’s delivered in that he has performed in the limited time he has got in the shirt.

He’s ahead of Byrne because he’s a far bigger threat with ball in hand.

Not getting back into the Byrne v Carty conversation, you will start to see childish comments.....


I haven't seen anything from Carty to suggest he is challenging Carberry for the number 2 spot behind Sexton.....hopefully he will push on now in next few weeks....I would hope when Carberry comes back that Carty has grabbed his chance and Carberry will struggle to get back in, not that everyone is waiting for Carberry to get back in

Hobosan

i think Carty would beat Byrne in a fight.

Henry Ford III

Hobosan wrote: »

i think Carty would beat Byrne in a fight.

He'd outsprint him anyhow

Shefwedfan

Hobosan wrote: »

i think Carty would beat Byrne in a fight.

I think Byrne Daddy would beat Carty's Daddy !

Rigor Mortis

Carty v Byrne. The Kearney v O'Halloran debate for the Millennial generation

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Byrne is one of the slowest players in the squad I heard.

Who did you hear that from?

Jump_In_Jack

aloooof wrote: »

Imo, it'd leave you very tight on back-rows. Basically, all you're 2nd rows and back-rows travelling are in your match-day 23, leaving your lock/back-row hybrid
as the reserve for 2 positions. Not ideal, especially for back-row, which is probably the most attritional position.

Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head there.
I think the solution is to have one of the hookers as a back-up for the back-row.
I think a lot of hookers started out as back-rows,
For example Dave Heffernan converted from Blind-side to hooker.
They would generally be mobile and good at competing in the rucks.
I’d say Cronin and Herring would be well able to be a backup flanker, in case of two injuries.

Former Former

Byrne had plenty of chances in the squad, plenty of time in camp and didn't make an impression. That's about the height of it really, same as plenty of players before him.

Joe hasn't been falling over himself to give Carty game time either so in the bigger scheme of things it mightn't matter all that much.

Faugheen

ClanofLams wrote: »

Carty has more to his game than Byrne, he will make breaks Byrne isn’t capable of.

Byrne is a much more proven match-winner than Carty or Carbery.

Having ‘more to your game’ is useless if you lose.

Faugheen

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Carty also isn't playing behind one of the best packs in Europe. I know it's the old cliche of "armchair ride", but Carty is working with generally a lot less clean and fast ball compared to Byrne does when playing behind the starting Leinster pack.

Ah the old pack excuse.

He’s won plenty of games by his own contributions. Having a good pack helps but Byrne has delivered performances to win games when his team needs him to, and has delivered in Europe and Pro14 semi-finals for more than one year now.

I can absolutely see the benefits of Carty in the squad, but Byrne is cold as ice under pressure and wins.

ClanofLams

Faugheen wrote: »

Byrne is a much more proven match-winner than Carty or Carbery.

Having ‘more to your game’ is useless if you lose.

Yeah Byrne has kicked some good penalties for Leinster under pressure. I’m sure Schmidt has factored that in when judging players. But at international level these days you need to have a ten who has the capacity to threaten the line, Byrne has never really shown the ability to do that, certainly not to the same extent as those ahead of him.

Shefwedfan

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Carty v Byrne. The Kearney v O'Halloran debate for the Millennial generation

Was it ever a debate?

aloooof

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head there.
I think the solution is to have one of the hookers as a back-up for the back-row.
I think a lot of hookers started out as back-rows,
For example Dave Heffernan converted from Blind-side to hooker.
They would generally be mobile and good at competing in the rucks.
I’d say Cronin and Herring would be well able to be a backup flanker, in case of two injuries.

Didn't Ken Owens play for Scarlets at 8 last season? Rory Best needs to pull the finger out! :pac:

D14Rugby

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Byrne is one of the slowest players in the squad I heard.

From who?

Are out half supposed to be international sprinters now? Don't remember ROG being particularly fast Sexton isn't either

Shefwedfan

D14Rugby wrote: »

From who?

Are out half supposed to be international sprinters now? Don't remember ROG being particularly fast Sexton isn't either

Don’t bother replying to that....best to ignore those posters

typhoony

D14Rugby wrote: »

From who?

Are out half supposed to be international sprinters now? Don't remember ROG being particularly fast Sexton isn't either

he heard!! he was watching the recent video clip interview from the other day with 3 of the Ireland players and they asked which player was the slowest, and they all agreed Ross Byrne

EachSmallChime

Poor Byrne. He just cant keep up with Furlong's blistering pace.

salmocab

EachSmallChime wrote: »

Poor Byrne. He just cant keep up with Furlong's blistering pace.

If only Rodney ah you was still in the squad then Byrne would be okay

irishbucsfan

I heard Luke McGrath is the worst at ping pong, and it’s not even close

Byrne has never been given a serious run at international level. He has however at provincial level and has proven himself as a serious replacement for Sexton. It’ll be interesting in a post Joe era what the makeup of an Ireland squad will be.

I’ve still seen nothing out of Carbury at either provincial or international level that shows me that he is ready to replace Sexton short term or long term. There again it would help if the poor sod got a good run without injury. Some of last seasons performances for Munster from December onwards were woeful, especially if Munster weren’t in a winning position. He always seemed incapable of taking control of a game and driving the team in a cohesive way forward, it regularly looked like panic stations.

aloooof

Deleted User wrote: »

Byrne has never been given a serious run at international level. He has however at provincial level and has proven himself as a serious replacement for Sexton. It’ll be interesting in a post Joe era what the makeup of an Ireland squad will be.

I’ve still seen nothing out of Carbury at either provincial or international level that shows me that he is ready to replace Sexton short term or long term. There again it would help if the poor sod got a good run without injury. Some of last seasons performances for Munster from December onwards were woeful, especially if Munster weren’t in a winning position. He always seemed incapable of taking control of a game and driving the team in a cohesive way forward, it regularly looked like panic stations.

I don't wish to sound harsh but this really strikes me as you not having seen Carbery in that period. He came back from injury in mid-December against Castres and admittedly played poorly.

But for the next spell of games he was brilliant; his next 4 starts were against Leinster, Connacht, Gloucester and Exeter. We won all 4 and he got MOTM in 2. He went on a run of about 5 games without missing a penalty. Gloucester in particular, he was superb.

EachSmallChime

Deleted User wrote: »

Byrne has never been given a serious run at international level. He has however at provincial level and has proven himself as a serious replacement for Sexton. It’ll be interesting in a post Joe era what the makeup of an Ireland squad will be.

I’ve still seen nothing out of Carbury at either provincial or international level that shows me that he is ready to replace Sexton short term or long term. There again it would help if the poor sod got a good run without injury. Some of last seasons performances for Munster from December onwards were woeful, especially if Munster weren’t in a winning position. He always seemed incapable of taking control of a game and driving the team in a cohesive way forward, it regularly looked like panic stations.

I think we've grown quite used to a certain type of 10 in Johnny Sexton and pinned it as the only way to play in that position. Johnny's strengths lie in that calm, controlled Quarter Back role.
Joey is the opposite and thrives in chaotic, broken play that would absolutely look panicky compared to Johnny's style.
I'd hate to train that intuition out of him by trying to make him like Sexton.

EachSmallChime

EachSmallChime wrote: »

I think we've grown quite used to a certain type of 10 in Johnny Sexton and pinned it as the only way to play in that position. Johnny's strengths lie in that calm, controlled Quarter Back role.
Joey is the opposite and thrives in chaotic, broken play that would absolutely look panicky compared to Johnny's style.
I'd hate to train that intuition out of him by trying to make him like Sexton.

Carbery is a good heads up player but he is also well capable of playing like Sexton, he just lacks the confidence (that comes from consistency) in executing some of the more difficult components of Sextons game.

I feel that Carbery pushes things a bit too much at times, we saw this with the intercept against Scotland during the six nations, but his latter break for Earls try is an ability out of reach to both Sexton and Byrne.

Ross Byrne lacks the natural athleticism of Carbery, Carty and even Sexton who does have a surprising amount of acceleration or someone with poor top end speed. Byrne has made up for this by being extremely accurate in what he does and consistent in his delivery. Carbery is behind him in this regards, but is improving and we saw some of his best rugby for 40 minutes on Saturday.

I hope Carbery is back in time for the World Cup, he's the best impact sub of any of our options - albeit if we needed someone to start I'm not sure who I'd pick between him and Byrne.

Regardless, Joe has his mind well made up at this stage. He'll be hoping Carbery is back early and available.

stephen_n

Joey is 23, no one is training anything out of him. He is just a young outhalf learning his trade and adding to his skill set. I think on Saturday we really saw the benefits of the move to Munster and regular starts. At 23 Johnny Sexton didn’t play like Johnny does now.

Wegians89

EachSmallChime wrote: »

I think we've grown quite used to a certain type of 10 in Johnny Sexton and pinned it as the only way to play in that position. Johnny's strengths lie in that calm, controlled Quarter Back role.
Joey is the opposite and thrives in chaotic, broken play that would absolutely look panicky compared to Johnny's style.
I'd hate to train that intuition out of him by trying to make him like Sexton.

Interestingly feel carty is halfway between the two, he can play a kicking game similar to rog at times while looking as explosive ball in hand as carbery at other times. Granted he’s probably not as naturally gifted as Sexton or carbery who are/will be world class

ionadnapokot

stephen_n wrote: »

Joey is 23, no one is training anything out of him. He is just a young outhalf learning his trade and adding to his skill set. I think on Saturday we really saw the benefits of the move to Munster and regular starts. At 23 Johnny Sexton didn’t play like Johnny does now.

Carbery; at 23-24, is in an excellent position to “kick on”. I also believe The Move to Munster was the right thing to do and has worked out relatively well. I think with Larkham coaching him and a bit more luck with injuries he will fulfill his potential. He is Ireland's great OH hope.

Some points of reference:
Sexton was 24, almost 25, in 2009 (v Munster etc)
Madigan was 25 for 2014-15 and in hindsight he probably should have moved to Connacht, or even Munster at the end of that season to fulfill his potential
Matt Giteau started his career at SH and was then chopped and changed between second-five-eight and 10.
Even Dan Carter was playing second-five-eight when he was 23

ionadnapokot

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I also believe The Move to Munster was the right thing to do and has worked out relatively well.

I just about agree with this. I think playing another few seasons with Sexton and subsequently Contemponi would have really added value to Carbery's skillset. I think Ross Byrne is a more complete outhalf at this point in time.

On the other hand, playing with a less dominant pack is an optimal learning for Carbery as opposed to the armchair ride Byrne gets most weeks.

aloooof

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel that Carbery pushes things a bit too much at times, we saw this with the intercept against Scotland during the six nations, but his latter break for Earls try is an ability out of reach to both Sexton and Byrne.

This is the crux of it. Byrne likely wouldn't have thrown that intercept pass but equally he wouldn't have made that break. And, imo, it's easier for a coach to fix an error like an intercept than it is for them to teach line-breaking ability.

For that reason, I think Carbery has a far higher ceiling.

errlloyd

We don't often judge tens by this stuff though. By these metrics Madigan would have overtaken Sexton, Staunton over ROG, Hanrahan over Keatley etc etc etc.

The most important thing is a ten in Ireland does is make decisions. An athletic ten gives himself a few extra options, but that does not make him any better at picking the correct one. If all of this was as clear cut as people on here seem to think then Leinster would have pushed for Byrne to leave and Carbs to stay.

ionadnapokot

Deleted User wrote: »

I just about agree with this. I think playing another few seasons with Sexton and subsequently Contemponi would have really added value to Carbery's skillset. I think Ross Byrne is a more complete outhalf at this point in time.

On the other hand, playing with a less dominant pack is an optimal learning for Carbery as opposed to the armchair ride Byrne gets most weeks.

Nothing beats game time.
The responsibility of been the main guy will also speed up his development. That responsibility wouldn't suit everybody, but Carbery has the talent and temperament to handle that pressure.

shootermacg

Both very good players. Carbs probably makes the highlight reel more, but Byrne is no slouch at running a game.

aloooof

errlloyd wrote: »

We don't often judge tens by this stuff though. By these metrics Madigan would have overtaken Sexton, Staunton over ROG, Hanrahan over Keatley etc etc etc.

The most important thing is a ten in Ireland does is make decisions. An athletic ten gives himself a few extra options, but that does not make him any better at picking the correct one. If all of this was as clear cut as people on here seem to think then Leinster would have pushed for Byrne to leave and Carbs to stay.

How do you know they didn't? Maybe they did, but Schmidt clearly sees Carbery as his back-up 10. And Carbery would get more game time at 10, in more important games, as Munster's 1st choice 10 than Leinster's 2nd choice.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1161621852151799808?s=19

andymx11

JC 4-6 weeks and Finlay Bealham, John Cooney and Mike Haley cut

Shefwedfan

Carberry could be an exceptional player. I don't think anyone can argue against that. He has all the ingredients but just needs guidance. The new coaching at Munster could help that.

Byrne will be a great player. Very solid and will be a very good pro. Could run the number 10 slot for Leinster for the next 10 years and with the right players around him they can continue to win HC and Pro14. He does not have the raw talent of Carberry. He has already shown he is a great player for Leinster with some excellent performances.

In the back of all this conversation is Harry Byrne who a lot of people expect to take over from Sexton. He could take over the Irish 10 and move Carberry to 15.

Carberry at 15 is hugely exciting.

Imagine a backs of H Byrne, Stockdale, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour, Carberry......for next World cup.....

I don't see anything from Carty to suggest he will ever be the number 1 for Ireland and I think once some of the U20's come up he will drop back to number 3 and down the ranking further. Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see it.

Mr Tickle

andymx11 wrote: »

JC 4-6 weeks and Finlay Bealham, John Cooney and Mike Haley cut

Porter must have done enough on both sides of the scrum last week so.

Slightly surprised to see Cooney go without letting him have a run. I didn't think that Luke Mcgrath blew him out of the water or anything.

arsebiscuits1

Ooof, more harsh decisions.

Surprised and disappointed Bealham and Cooney didn't get any game time but clearly they didn't show Joe enough in the past 6 weeks.

arsebiscuits1

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Porter must have done enough on both sides of the scrum last week so.

Slightly surprised to see Cooney go without letting him have a run. I didn't think that Luke Mcgrath blew him out of the water or anything.

Think he only had 2 loosehead scrums. One was fine and one he conceded a penalty.

But in fairness he'd been on 70 minutes at that stage and put in a pretty big shift

andymx11

Realistically how much fitness does a professional athlete loose in 4-6 weeks?

I assume JC won’t b able to do much fitness work for at least 4 weeks?

thomond2006

Ireland Squad (Warm Weather Training Camp, Portugal 2019)

Forwards (22)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 117 caps
Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 68 caps
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 8 caps
Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 15 caps

Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 89 caps
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 29 caps
Jack McGrath (St Mary’s College/Ulster) 55 caps

Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 15 caps
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 19 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 33 caps

Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 6 caps
Iain Henderson (Queen’s University/Ulster) 45 caps
Jean Kleyn (Munster) 1 cap
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 65 caps

Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 14 caps
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Ulster) 28 caps
Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 13 caps
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 57 caps
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 22 caps
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 31 caps
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps

Backs (18)

Kieran Marmion (Galwegians/Connacht) 26 caps
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 11 caps
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 72 caps

Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Munster) 19 caps - out of pre-season games
Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht) 4 caps
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps

Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 17 caps
Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 6 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 37 caps
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 21 caps

Will Addison (Enniskillen/Ulster) 3 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 13 caps
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps
Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 18 caps
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 90 caps
Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 14 caps
Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 19 caps

arsebiscuits1

andymx11 wrote: »

Realistically how much fitness does a professional athlete loose in 4-6 weeks?

I assume JC won’t b able to do much fitness work for at least 4 weeks?

He will lose some but it's not like he's couchbound for the whole time.

He can still do upper body weights and low impact cardio to keep ticking over.

Given they're hopeful of 4 weeks I assume they'll hope to have him running in 3

thomond2006

70-80 euro before fees tickets available for Ireland vs Wales.

What world are the IRFU living in?!

Edit: For context, Wales vs Ireland in Cardiff is GBP 40-70.

D14Rugby

Carberys injury was probably the nail in the coffin for Cooney now, means we have to go for 3 10s and there's no point having three people going for one spot at this stage

arsebiscuits1

thomond2006 wrote: »

70-80 euro before fees tickets available for Ireland vs Wales.

What world are the IRFU living in?!

Edit: For context, Wales vs Ireland in Cardiff is GBP 40-70.

In a world where people are buying them?

Only the nosebleeds left for them really. That'll likely sell out

EDIT: Let's not forget you can get 20,000 more people into Cardiff also in a city a fraction the population size of Dublin and a country a fraction the population size or Ireland. Supply and demand. Simple

Shefwedfan

D14Rugby wrote: »

Carberys injury was probably the nail in the coffin for Cooney now, means we have to go for 3 10s and there's no point having three people going for one spot at this stage

The nail was driven in Cooney a long time ago

Former Former

So that's Bealham, Cooney and Haley gone?

Haley was an odd inclusion to begin with. Once Porter did a reasonable job on both sides on Saturday, Bealham's days were numbered and I guess McGrath just outperformed Cooney in camp.

Still 40 players in contention, a big number.

Henry Ford III

typhoony wrote: »

he heard!! he was watching the recent video clip interview from the other day with 3 of the Ireland players and they asked which player was the slowest, and they all agreed Ross Byrne

Correct. Glad you saw it too.

p.s. A slow 10 will limit defensive line speed. ROG and Sexton might not have been sprinters, but they were never described as "slow". Dave Kearney, for a winger, is not blessed with much pace either imho.

Larbre34

9 left for the chop. Nominations lists please.....