Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

reg114

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton is not injury prone.....

Jesus people really need to get that out of their head.

Every player in the World Cup is an injury risk, nobody is talking about the lack of 9's but Murray is a bigger concern to me. At least Sexton showed form for Leinster last season. Murray was playing like a drain all season

Marmion or McGrath are not rolling in caps either

Sexton has shipped a fair few concussions in his time which has seen him leave the pitch early a more than one occasion

shootermacg

It will be very interesting to see our attack goes against the rush defense.


NZ currently go to the middle off first phase in order to split the numbers and unbalance the rush with limited success (although it could be argued, it did work well vs South Africa, but SA got lucky with their wing acting as a shooter)
or they play deep off a first phase pull-back to try to suck in the rush and then go middle. Aaron Smith has one of the snappiest passes in world rugby, so they can play those two strategies.
Even so, NZ aren't exactly having the great success against the rush these days.

SA and England just suck you in with multiple carries to narrow the defense before sending the ball out to the hard running backs. Or else they kick territory and suffocate you in the right area of the pitch. SA also kick a lot of contestables, an old Irish plan that seems to catch out the SH defenses.

Ireland's multi ruck game + fast ball is designed to unbalance defenses exposing imbalances either side of the ruck or at least milk penalties. The supplemented this with pin point box kicking in order to play in the right areas and exit their 22.

Ireland's exit strategy really let them down vs England and too many times Ireland tried to run it out of their own 22.

All England had to do was kick Ireland back into their own 22 and defend. England are a huge team and Ireland allowed them to play to their strengths. This game came down to field position, it's much easier to maintain momentum when you're playing in the right area, laying siege to the opposition half.

It is really hard to break down big teams who defend well these days. What do the experts here think is a valid strategy?

shootermacg

errlloyd wrote: »

Side note, I kind of wish Andy Goode had retired a legend and disappeared. His current political persona is ruining my enjoyment of his onfield unsuitability.

Really? What are his leanings? Brexit good, Europe Bad?

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

What players choices specifically, for what style of play?

Cronin at hooker, Leinster backrow, Henshaw & Ringtone, Larmor fullback. I'd also like to see Larmour given time at 13, since he's likely to be down as emergency cover in a match day 23.

errlloyd

shootermacg wrote: »

Really? What are his leanings? Brexit good, Europe Bad?

Yeah, Loves Brexit, Boris, Piers Morgan, Trump.

ionadnapokot

aloooof wrote: »

Even allowing for Parra vs Trinh-Duc, that's still 1st vs 2nd choice. So it looks like the 3rd or 4th choice 10 playing has only happened once out of 8 players in the last 4 finals?

This reminded me of the Indianapolis Colts....
“Fellas, if ‘18’ goes down, we’re ****ed. And we don’t practice ****ed.”
http://eternalfootballpete.blogspot.com/2011/08/we-dont-practice-****ed.html

Joe isn't as irresponsible as that, or mad like Marc Lievermont - Picking Parra at OH:pac: with Trinh-Duc on the bench and not picking Michalack!

Thankfully Ireland are the antithesis to that France side in every way. Well coached, well selected 40 disciples of Joe with his first lieutenant at OH.

Conversely, i didnt see the benefit in bringing Sexton to Australia.
Probably to give him a break from his three kids:D

If Ireland manage to get to the final it will be more along the lines of SA's progression in '07.

shootermacg

errlloyd wrote: »

Yeah, Loves Brexit, Boris, Piers Morgan, Trump.

That's a view probably shared by a majority white Englishmen. Even my boss, who's English and working in a very "PC" industry and is himself, a very clever guy hints at those leanings more then he should.
In their history they aren't the bad guys.

shootermacg

ionadnapokot wrote: »

This reminded me of the Indianapolis Colts....
“Fellas, if ‘18’ goes down, we’re ****ed. And we don’t practice ****ed.”
http://eternalfootballpete.blogspot.com/2011/08/we-dont-practice-****ed.html

Joe isn't as irresponsible as that, or mad like Marc Lievermont - Picking Parra at OH:pac: with Trinh-Duc on the bench and not picking Michalack!

Thankfully Ireland are the antithesis to that France side in every way. Well coached, well selected 40 disciples of Joe with his first lieutenant at OH.

Conversely, i didnt see the benefit in bringing Sexton to Australia.
Probably to give him a break from his three kids:D

If Ireland manage to get to the final it will be more along the lines of SA's progression in '07.

Jesus, I still remember the lumps on Parra's head that day, he good some of the worst special treatment I've ever seen a ten get. Probably serves him right for agreeing to the plan.

Shefwedfan

ionadnapokot wrote: »

This reminded me of the Indianapolis Colts....
“Fellas, if ‘18’ goes down, we’re ****ed. And we don’t practice ****ed.”
http://eternalfootballpete.blogspot.com/2011/08/we-dont-practice-****ed.html

Joe isn't as irresponsible as that, or mad like Marc Lievermont - Picking Parra at OH:pac: with Trinh-Duc on the bench and not picking Michalack!

Thankfully Ireland are the antithesis to that France side in every way. Well coached, well selected 40 disciples of Joe with his first lieutenant at OH.

Conversely, i didnt see the benefit in bringing Sexton to Australia.
Probably to give him a break from his three kids:D

If Ireland manage to get to the final it will be more along the lines of SA's progression in '07.

Sexton missed the tour of SA and that is why he went to Australia.



It was also seen as a huge confidence boost to the entire squad to win a series away from home. That gave them the confidence they can win in Japan.....


Australia at the time was critical. Looking back now and saying we should have thrown in away is a small bit silly.


I bet if we lost it you would have the press on about how we threw out the SA tour when we should of won and lost the Australia tour so we are weak away from home


Look at Wales, all their fans are scared sh*tless that once they go out of Cardiff they can't win.....we dont have that fear

Shefwedfan

g

reg114 wrote: »

Sexton has shipped a fair few concussions in his time which has seen him leave the pitch early a more than one occasion

This concussion thing was put to bed a long time ago but it thrown up ever so often.

One season he had 2 knocks on head and was let sit out a few match's for Racing. He was still playing for Ireland.

So I am open to correction if you can tell me about these concussions? especially ones to make him leave the pitch early

ionadnapokot

Johnny going for the ultra narrow look to slip through the rush defense?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/22/johnny-sexton-ireland-england-world-cup-warm-up-rugby-union

Operation "Ketchup"

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So I am open to correction if you can tell me about these concussions? especially ones to make him leave the pitch early

Playing devil's advocate, but he did fail a HIA against Scotland in the 6 Nations this year forcing him to leave the field after 24 mins, for example. (Not necessarily for concussion, mind).

Shefwedfan wrote: »

One season he had 2 knocks on head and was let sit out a few match's for Racing. He was still playing for Ireland.

Also, it's worth being clear on this, some of your facts on this aren't correct. From this article, it was 4 concussions inside a 12 month period, not 2. Also, the ban ran from December thru to the 2nd round of the 6 Nations. He came back to play for Ireland after the ban. That's the only reason he was still playing for Ireland.

The medical ban means that Sexton is unavailable to play rugby again until 14 February, the same day that Ireland play France in their second 2015 RBS 6 Nations clash.

If the ban stands, he will sit out all rugby until that point, including Ireland's Six Nations opener against Italy on 7 February.

I think overall tho, this just emphasises the benefit of having him back in the Irish system and not at Racing.

Squidgy Black

shootermacg wrote: »

That's a view probably shared by a majority white Englishmen. Even my boss, who's English and working in a very "PC" industry and is himself, a very clever guy hints at those leanings more then he should.
In their history they aren't the bad guys.

Yup, you have to remember as well he's very much in the form of your stereotypical "banter lad" who likes to give out about the world being too PC. He also attended a private school in Worcestershire, where the Tories are the majority party.

Vinnie222

Shefwedfan wrote: »

g


This concussion thing was put to bed a long time ago but it thrown up ever so often.

One season he had 2 knocks on head and was let sit out a few match's for Racing. He was still playing for Ireland.

So I am open to correction if you can tell me about these concussions? especially ones to make him leave the pitch early

Actually took 4 knock and was stood down for 12 weeks in France . He also failed a HIA against Exeter

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Cronin at hooker, Leinster backrow, Henshaw & Ringtone, Larmor fullback. I'd also like to see Larmour given time at 13, since he's likely to be down as emergency cover in a match day 23.

And what style of play would that enable that is restricted with the current starters?

Some Yoke

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Johnny going for the ultra narrow look to slip through the rush defense?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/22/johnny-sexton-ireland-england-world-cup-warm-up-rugby-union

Operation "Ketchup"

Confucius says when you add width to your game you must loose width elsewhere

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

And what style of play would that enable that is restricted with the current starters?

Well, one that features players more adebt at the passing the ball and attacking space for one. Cronin also offers a very explosive carrying option that is otherwise lacking.

shootermacg

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Well, one that features players more adebt at the passing the ball and attacking space for one. Cronin also offers a very explosive carrying option that is otherwise lacking.

Cronin is seen as a risk reward type of player. You get the dodgy throwing and a bit less ballast in the front row vs his hard running. Pretty much the same risk you get with Killer except Killer will only be a possible liability in one area, the scrum.

AbusesToilets

shootermacg wrote: »

Cronin is seen as a risk reward type of player. You get the dodgy throwing and a bit less ballast in the front row vs his hard running. Pretty much the same risk you get with Killer except Killer will only be a possible liability in one area, the scrum.

Think that's a harsh assessment of Cronin. His throwing issues are way overblown, especially given how frequently Best has had similar struggles. The 6N game wasn't all on his shoulders, whole lineout was put of sync.

shootermacg

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Think that's a harsh assessment of Cronin. His throwing issues are way overblown, especially given how frequently Best has had similar struggles. The 6N game wasn't all on his shoulders, whole lineout was put of sync.

I call it how I see it. The other players blame mitigating factors in the throws, but never-the-less you don't see these issues so much with the other hookers.

aloooof

shootermacg wrote: »

Cronin is seen as a risk reward type of player. You get the dodgy throwing and a bit less ballast in the front row vs his hard running. Pretty much the same risk you get with Killer except Killer will only be a possible liability in one area, the scrum.

Someone else made a point awhile back that Cronin is often considered a game-changing carrier off the bench, but they couldn't think of one Tier 1 game for Ireland that he came off the bench and changed.

CMcsporty

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Think that's a harsh assessment of Cronin. His throwing issues are way overblown, especially given how frequently Best has had similar struggles. The 6N game wasn't all on his shoulders, whole lineout was put of sync.

Ranking them in terms of their darts
1. Scannell
2. Herring
3. Best
4. Cronin

Scrum
1. Best
2. Herring
3. Scannell
4. Cronin

Attacking Breakdown
1. Best
2. Scannell
3. Cronin
4. Herring

Def Breakdown
1. Best
2. Cronin
3. Herring
4. Scannell

Running
1. Cronin
2. Herring
3. Scannell
4. Best

Passing
1. Scannell
2. Herring
3. Best
4. Cronin

edit: im open to contradiction!

shootermacg

aloooof wrote: »

Someone else made a point awhile back that Cronin is often considered a game-changing carrier off the bench, but they couldn't think of one Tier 1 game for Ireland that he came off the bench and changed.

He's done this many times for Leinster and carries well for Ireland. He seems to lack a touch of confidence in green, which might just be down the man-management in the Irish squad. He's a very good player, potentially world class, might be that he just needs a few starts to steady him.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

shootermacg wrote: »

Cronin is seen as a risk reward type of player. You get the dodgy throwing and a bit less ballast in the front row vs his hard running. Pretty much the same risk you get with Killer except Killer will only be a possible liability in one area, the scrum.

Someone else made a point awhile back that Cronin is often considered a game-changing carrier off the bench, but they couldn't think of one Tier 1 game for Ireland that he came off the bench and changed.

Is he not viewed as an impact sub as opposed to a game changer though? The two are different. You can make an impact in a game that you're winning. If you're a game changer in a game that you're winning then that's a bad thing.

But generally Cronin only gets about 10-15 mins off the bench. That's rarely enough time to make any kind of impact against a tier 1 side anyway. Youd need at least 20 mins.

shootermacg

CMcsporty wrote: »

Ranking them in terms of their darts
1. Scannell
2. Herring
3. Best
4. Cronin

Scrum
1. Best
2. Herring
3. Scannell
4. Cronin

Attacking Breakdown
1. Best
2. Scannell
3. Cronin
4. Herring

Def Breakdown
1. Best
2. Cronin
3. Herring
4. Scannell

Running
1. Cronin
2. Herring
3. Scannell
4. Best

Passing
1. Scannell
2. Herring
3. Best
4. Cronin

I'd argue for Scannell being the best in the scrum, he's a very big man. He's also a very busy defender and probably the better carrier in traffic. I don't see Herring topping Scannell at anything really. In saying that, I don't catch as many Ulster games as Leinster and Munster.

Paul Smeenus

aloooof wrote: »

Someone else made a point awhile back that Cronin is often considered a game-changing carrier off the bench, but they couldn't think of one Tier 1 game for Ireland that he came off the bench and changed.

Think it was me, possibly. I always see him referred to as a game-changer off the bench, and I asked for any suggestions of an actual international game where he had done that (albeit there are obviously many times he has been very good). No-one gave me one. He often produces a couple of cracking runs, but I can't think of a game where I felt he changed momentum or really played a pivotal role.

aloooof

molloyjh wrote: »

Is he not viewed as an impact sub as opposed to a game changer though? The two are different. You can make an impact in a game that you're winning. If you're a game changer in a game that you're winning then that's a bad thing.

But generally Cronin only gets about 10-15 mins off the bench. That's rarely enough time to make any kind of impact against a tier 1 side anyway. Youd need at least 20 mins.

That's fair, but for some reason Joe doesn't seem to fancy him.

The stat doing the rounds during the 6 Nations was that his start against Italy was his first 6 Nations start out of 33 previous 6 Nations caps. (He had made his debut 10 years prior). And we know that didn't go well for him, and he was dropped out of the squad following that match.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1164887265065295872?s=19

sydthebeat

that team would beat the crap out of those english boys

Rigor Mortis

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Think it was me, possibly. I always see him referred to as a game-changer off the bench, and I asked for any suggestions of an actual international game where he had done that (albeit there are obviously many times he has been very good). No-one gave me one. He often produces a couple of cracking runs, but I can't think of a game where I felt he changed momentum or really played a pivotal role.

There is no game changing hooker in world rugby. It is not that kind of position. Cronin brings impact that could, by being a genuine attacking threat, come close to it.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

Is he not viewed as an impact sub as opposed to a game changer though? The two are different. You can make an impact in a game that you're winning. If you're a game changer in a game that you're winning then that's a bad thing.

But generally Cronin only gets about 10-15 mins off the bench. That's rarely enough time to make any kind of impact against a tier 1 side anyway. Youd need at least 20 mins.

That's fair, but for some reason Joe doesn't seem to fancy him.

The stat doing the rounds during the 6 Nations was that his start against Italy was his first 6 Nations start out of 33 previous 6 Nations caps. (He had made his debut 10 years prior). And we know that didn't go well for him, and he was dropped out of the squad following that match.

Yeah, some players just wont fit with what the coaches are after. Kind of similar to Zebo in some ways I suppose. Cronin has been great for Leinster, but that doesn't always translate.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

that team would beat the crap out of those english boys

I'd imagine they'd target our fullback though

Or is Rob Kearney so nailed on that they don't even mention him any more

CMcsporty

shootermacg wrote: »

I'd argue for Scannell being the best in the scrum, he's a very big man. He's also a very busy defender and probably the better carrier in traffic. I don't see Herring topping Scannell at anything really. In saying that, I don't catch as many Ulster games as Leinster and Munster.

Im only guessing really about scrum. Deference to someone with a bit of insight here. I thought id heard someone say a couple of years ago that Ulster think Herring was the better scrummager.
Scannell better in traffic - ok. In open field Herring got a bit of speed and picks a decent line.

briandebum

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

There is no game changing hooker in world rugby. It is not that kind of position. Cronin brings impact that could, by being a genuine attacking threat, come close to it.

I think Dane Coles would like a word with you.

There's also a young lad called Asafo Aumua who did this in the Mitre10 cup, that's George Bridge who started for the All Blacks the last day he blows by.

Rigor Mortis

Dan COles is a great player and in my mind the best in the world. I still dont think he is game changing. The nature of the position is that it doesnt lend itself to that.

sydthebeat

briandebum wrote: »

I think Dane Coles would like a word with you.

There's also a young lad called Asafo Aumua who did this in the Mitre10 cup, that's George Bridge who started for the All Blacks the last day he blows by.

At club level Cronin has made many a high calibre back look very ordinary, quite often too.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

At club level Cronin has made many a high calibre back look very ordinary, quite often too.

That's George Bridge he gets around. He got capped against Australia there last week.

Henry Ford III

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Think that's a harsh assessment of Cronin. His throwing issues are way overblown, especially given how frequently Best has had similar struggles. The 6N game wasn't all on his shoulders, whole lineout was put of sync.

He was dropped from the squad after starting against Italy in last season's 6N.

He had a nightmare.

Former Former

Cronin is good but Joe has absolutely no time for him. Maybe Farrell will have a different take but Cronin is now 33 so realistically he's done with Ireland after the RWC.

Scannell is good too, but not first choice test hooker good.

Herring is even further back IMO

Could be a problem position for us unless someone steps up.

Shefwedfan

shootermacg wrote: »

I call it how I see it. The other players blame mitigating factors in the throws, but never-the-less you don't see these issues so much with the other hookers.

People point to the Italy game, thing is after he went off the lineout was still a disaster and Scannell also lost a number of throws

As I mentioned earlier it would be nice to see Cronin get a run with Toner and Ryan in lineout or at least 1 of them. If he f**ks up then that's it, send him back to Leinster, we will welcome him with open arms

He is the starting hooker now for a few seasons for Leinster and has been incredible. Nominated for European player of season this year. So he has it in him.....

Apart from the Italy game I can't remember a dodgy throwing game from Cronin? even when he was coming on.

People need to remember he has played nearly every game as a sub. SO he might get 3 throws a game, so over 2 games get's 6 and misses1 then his average is s**t


Best is playing majority of minutes so over those 2 games he could get at least double, so he misses one and his average is ok.


People seem to forget the s**t show that was Best a number of times, the Lions tour for one when he couldn't hit anything.



People need to get over Italy and give Cronin a chance, he is a real option off the bench and could give us a winning run in a tight match

Paul Smeenus

Shefwedfan wrote: »

People point to the Italy game, thing is after he went off the lineout was still a disaster and Scannell also lost a number of throws

As I mentioned earlier it would be nice to see Cronin get a run with Toner and Ryan in lineout or at least 1 of them. If he f**ks up then that's it, send him back to Leinster, we will welcome him with open arms

He is the starting hooker now for a few seasons for Leinster and has been incredible. Nominated for European player of season this year. So he has it in him.....

Apart from the Italy game I can't remember a dodgy throwing game from Cronin? even when he was coming on.

People need to remember he has played nearly every game as a sub. SO he might get 3 throws a game, so over 2 games get's 6 and misses1 then his average is s**t


Best is playing majority of minutes so over those 2 games he could get at least double, so he misses one and his average is ok.


People seem to forget the s**t show that was Best a number of times, the Lions tour for one when he couldn't hit anything.



People need to get over Italy and give Cronin a chance, he is a real option off the bench and could give us a winning run in a tight match

It's not up to "people".

JOE SEZ NO

shootermacg

Shefwedfan wrote: »

People point to the Italy game, thing is after he went off the lineout was still a disaster and Scannell also lost a number of throws

As I mentioned earlier it would be nice to see Cronin get a run with Toner and Ryan in lineout or at least 1 of them. If he f**ks up then that's it, send him back to Leinster, we will welcome him with open arms

He is the starting hooker now for a few seasons for Leinster and has been incredible. Nominated for European player of season this year. So he has it in him.....

Apart from the Italy game I can't remember a dodgy throwing game from Cronin? even when he was coming on.

People need to remember he has played nearly every game as a sub. SO he might get 3 throws a game, so over 2 games get's 6 and misses1 then his average is s**t


Best is playing majority of minutes so over those 2 games he could get at least double, so he misses one and his average is ok.


People seem to forget the s**t show that was Best a number of times, the Lions tour for one when he couldn't hit anything.



People need to get over Italy and give Cronin a chance, he is a real option off the bench and could give us a winning run in a tight match

Don't talk to me bub, talk to Joe. You know what, I'll have a word with him if I bump into him.

shootermacg

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

It's not up to "people".

JOE SEZ NO

SNAP!

I posted on reddit with Cronin/Best's lineout stats both for Ireland and for their provincial teams over the last few years. There isn't a huge amount in it, but people always insist that Cronin is terrible at lineout's and doesn't offer much beyond an impact sub - despite being the starter for one of the top teams in Europe for several seasons 🤷*♂️

aloooof

Former Former wrote: »

Cronin is good but Joe has absolutely no time for him. Maybe Farrell will have a different take but Cronin is now 33 so realistically he's done with Ireland after the RWC.

Scannell is good too, but not first choice test hooker good.

Herring is even further back IMO

Could be a problem position for us unless someone steps up.

I think Rhys Marshall qualifies post-RWC so he becomes an option as well, but agreed, none of them seem to be quite of the calibre of what we've had previously.

Henry Ford III

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I posted on reddit with Cronin/Best's lineout stats both for Ireland and for their provincial teams over the last few years. There isn't a huge amount in it, but people always insist that Cronin is terrible at lineout's and doesn't offer much beyond an impact sub - despite being the starter for one of the top teams in Europe for several seasons 🀷*♂️

It's the Joe show. Detailing stats here matters not.

Paul Smeenus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I posted on reddit with Cronin/Best's lineout stats both for Ireland and for their provincial teams over the last few years. There isn't a huge amount in it, but people always insist that Cronin is terrible at lineout's and doesn't offer much beyond an impact sub - despite being the starter for one of the top teams in Europe for several seasons 🀷*♂️

Presumably Cronin was often throwing to lineout banker Toner in provincial games, so his stats should be significantly better? The problem is the lineout a massive Rubix cube of moving parts, and it's very hard to isolate what's solely due to the hooker. They will have been playing with different forwards (lifters as well as different second rows), with different tactics, against different opponents. There is no way to really compare, outside of training together.

shootermacg

Deleted User wrote: »

I posted on reddit with Cronin/Best's lineout stats both for Ireland and for their provincial teams over the last few years. There isn't a huge amount in it, but people always insist that Cronin is terrible at lineout's and doesn't offer much beyond an impact sub - despite being the starter for one of the top teams in Europe for several seasons 🤷*♂️

Surely Joe knows he is a starter for one of the top teams in Europe? Are you saying that Joe has an irrational dislike of Cronin?

Is the fact that most people think of Cronin as a poor line-out thrower, some kind of smear campaign by the Dublin meeja, because he's actually from Munster?

This is serious, people need to start lawyering up stat!

Shefwedfan

shootermacg wrote: »

Surely Joe knows he is a starter for one of the top teams in Europe? Are you saying that Joe has an irrational dislike of Cronin?

Is the fact that most people think of Cronin as a poor line-out thrower, some kind of smear campaign by the Dublin meeja, because he's actually from Munster?

This is serious, people need to start lawyering up stat!

I think early on in his career he threw a couple of ropey ones and people got it into their head....

Same as for a long time after the Lions tour Best was accused of it,



The facts didn't back it up but like a lot of these things it just bubbles from that.



The Italy match, would it have been any better with Best? I think OTB or some other podcast done some analysis and the first few throws the jumpers where all wrong, then that put pressure on Cronin and it went to s**t then.



As I said, even with Scannell on it was a disaster.