Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

shootermacg

aloooof wrote: »

I think Rhys Marshall qualifies post-RWC so he becomes an option as well, but agreed, none of them seem to be quite of the calibre of what we've had previously.

Marshall is very talented, throws great darts and seems to be a very good footballer. He needs to get his weight up though. He's giving up around 10kg to Scannell.

Former Former

Deleted User wrote: »

I posted on reddit with Cronin/Best's lineout stats both for Ireland and for their provincial teams over the last few years.

Rory Best is an awful lineout thrower. That Cronin has similar stats is no endorsement unfortunately. Best's other strengths compensate for that, whereas Cronin's do not (in Joe's mind anyway).

shootermacg

shootermacg wrote: »

Surely Joe knows he is a starter for one of the top teams in Europe? Are you saying that Joe has an irrational dislike of Cronin?

Is the fact that most people think of Cronin as a poor line-out thrower, some kind of smear campaign by the Dublin meeja, because he's actually from Munster?

This is serious, people need to start lawyering up stat!

I was referring to people who talk about Cronin being an impact sub - hence why I said 'people always insist that Cronin is terrible at lineout's and doesn't offer much beyond an impact sub'. I didn't mention Joe Schmidt, nor did I mention the media.

Perhaps you should save the sarcasm and snideness for when you're not displaying such an incredible level of dimness that it makes it astounding you're even capable of working a keyboard?

Henry Ford III

shootermacg wrote: »

Marshall is very talented, throws great darts and seems to be a very good footballer. He needs to get his weight up though. He's giving up around 10kg to Scannell.

Scannell has lost a good bit of weight recently. He looks fitter than previously

blackwhite

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The Italy match, would it have been any better with Best? I think OTB or some other podcast done some analysis and the first few throws the jumpers where all wrong, then that put pressure on Cronin and it went to s**t then.

If I remember correctly - there were late lifts on 2 of the first 3/4 throws.

It doesn't help the perception for Cronin though - his misses (the ones that are his fault) tend to be overthrows, so when a jumper is late getting in the air it often just looks like another overthrow and he gets blamed as well

shootermacg

Former Former wrote: »

Rory Best is an awful lineout thrower. That Cronin has similar stats is no endorsement unfortunately. Best's other strengths compensate for that, whereas Cronin's do not (in Joe's mind anyway).

Best's best days are over. But he was always the best in the scrum, great at the break-down, turned over ball regularly and could even throw the odd deft pass.
One of Ireland's greatest hookers. His throwing was never great, but he was like a silver back gorilla compared to Jerry Flannery.

Even now at his age he owns his place in the squad, but his time needs to be managed.

Rigor Mortis

Deleted User wrote: »

I posted on reddit with Cronin/Best's lineout stats both for Ireland and for their provincial teams over the last few years. There isn't a huge amount in it, but people always insist that Cronin is terrible at lineout's and doesn't offer much beyond an impact sub - despite being the starter for one of the top teams in Europe for several seasons 🤷*♂️

If Best is your comparison you are in a bad place. Best has woeful darts too.

Suspectman123

aloooof wrote: »

Someone else made a point awhile back that Cronin is often considered a game-changing carrier off the bench, but they couldn't think of one Tier 1 game for Ireland that he came off the bench and changed.

I’ll give you one...3rd test v South Africa
Came on pretty late, made a massive break up the pitch into their 22...nearly won us the game bar a brain dead peno from someone(can’t remember who) at a breakdown a few phases later
South Africa Tier one nation
Massive linebreak- game changing moment
It’s on YouTube, have a look

shootermacg

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think early on in his career he threw a couple of ropey ones and people got it into their head....

Same as for a long time after the Lions tour Best was accused of it,



The facts didn't back it up but like a lot of these things it just bubbles from that.



The Italy match, would it have been any better with Best? I think OTB or some other podcast done some analysis and the first few throws the jumpers where all wrong, then that put pressure on Cronin and it went to s**t then.



As I said, even with Scannell on it was a disaster.

Its human nature to remember the bad far longer than to remember the good. This allows bad moments to accumulate compared to the good moments.

If you link this with strong emotion, such as a poor throw or throw an intercept losing your team the game and resulting in you screaming blue murder. You have a "banked" memory and a possible long term bias.

It's probably a job that none of us have to pick the team!

Paul Smeenus

Suspectman123 wrote: »

I’ll give you one...3rd test v South Africa
Came on pretty late, made a massive break up the pitch into their 22...nearly won us the game bar a brain dead peno from someone(can’t remember who) at a breakdown a few phases later
South Africa Tier one nation
Massive linebreak- game changing moment
It’s on YouTube, have a look

Can only see the highlights. Best is on at 70 minutes when Paddy Jackson kicks a penalty to make it 19-13. Dunno when Cronin comes on, but game finishes the same score, 19-13. Maybe fair to say he was nearly a game-changer?

Henry Ford III

What's the purpose in running interference for Sean Cronin? He's 2nd or 3rd choice in the eyes of Schmidt and that's all that matters.

clsmooth

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Can only see the highlights. Best is on at 70 minutes when Paddy Jackson kicks a penalty to make it 19-13. Dunno when Cronin comes on, but game finishes the same score, 19-13. Maybe fair to say he was nearly a game-changer?

Think he means this


https://youtu.be/1Y85LI6bzIQ

arsebiscuits1

clsmooth wrote: »

Think he means this


https://youtu.be/1Y85LI6bzIQ

Your link didn't work properly. 1:19:41 on the video clock. 73:34 on the match clock.

It's a very impressive break. Probably not a game changer. Impressively he has 5 more carries in the next 20 phases before Ruddock goes off his feet to give away the penalty. But it is fair to say no Irish hooker over the last 10-15 years would have been capable of that

Weighing in on Cronin I don't necessarily think Joe doesn't rate Cronin for his lineout throwing primarily. I just don't think Cronins best attributes are not what Joe wants from his Hooker in Green. Joe wants to retain possession. As a result his front 5 all have to work as a very solid unit to make sure this gets retained. I think Cronins breakdown work is probably below what Joe needs from him and his ability to win collisions isn't where Joe wants it either.

Also, I don't feel Cronin's lineout throwing is any worse than most top level hookers. Everyone who lazily says he is offers absolutely no insight to his actual stats. Can anyone actually offer his stats and how they stack up to any others?

Jump_In_Jack

Suspectman123 wrote: »

I’ll give you one...3rd test v South Africa
Came on pretty late, made a massive break up the pitch into their 22...nearly won us the game bar a brain dead peno from someone(can’t remember who) at a breakdown a few phases later
South Africa Tier one nation
Massive linebreak- game changing moment
It’s on YouTube, have a look

He ran into a huge gap between number 2 and a back that was caught covering an overlap, the run ended outside the other 22, you’re overselling that one, a straight run up the pitch that amounted to nothing, it was a while later when the forwards were going nowhere Ruddock gave away a stupid penalty. Ireland has another chance close to the line after that where Faf tackled Earls resulting in a turnover.
One we left behind. We’ve definitely improved since then though.

I recall the biggest takeaway from that tour was that Jackson was a properly viable understudy to sexton

Shefwedfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I recall the biggest takeaway from that tour was that Jackson was a properly viable understudy to sexton

At the end of it you will find people thought PJ should be ahead...

Downlinz

Deleted User wrote: »

I posted on reddit with Cronin/Best's lineout stats both for Ireland and for their provincial teams over the last few years. There isn't a huge amount in it, but people always insist that Cronin is terrible at lineout's and doesn't offer much beyond an impact sub - despite being the starter for one of the top teams in Europe for several seasons 🤷*♂️

What impact? He has 6 tries in 10 years of international rugby and most of them against tier 2 teams along with a history of terrible line out throws.
He's a great player at club level but has never done anything on the international stage, it's time to stop pandering the myth that he can "step up" when hes never done so. Best, Scannell and Herring should be our travelling hookers on ability at this level.
Much like Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen and Alan Quinlan he'll be remembered as a great player at club level who was never able to make the grade at the highest level.

AbusesToilets

Downlinz wrote: »

What impact? He has 6 tries in 10 years of international rugby and most of them against tier 2 teams along with a history of terrible line out throws.
He's a great player at club level but has never done anything on the international stage, it's time to stop pandering the myth that he can "step up" when hes never done so. Best, Scannell and Herring should be our travelling hookers on ability at this level.
Much like Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen and Alan Quinlan he'll be remembered as a great player at club level who was never able to make the grade at the highest level.

Or, like them, he was never given a chance to , as the coach didn't like him

Shefwedfan

Downlinz wrote: »

What impact? He has 6 tries in 10 years of international rugby and most of them against tier 2 teams along with a history of terrible line out throws.
He's a great player at club level but has never done anything on the international stage, it's time to stop pandering the myth that he can "step up" when hes never done so. Best, Scannell and Herring should be our travelling hookers on ability at this level.
Much like Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen and Alan Quinlan he'll be remembered as a great player at club level who was never able to make the grade at the highest level.

Quick exam question

How many medals at international level does Cronin have?

AdamD

If the impact you're expecting is to single handedly turn a game then nobody will meet that standard. Making a line break is a big impact.

bilston

Irrespective of the result, today could be a useful toughening exercise with the QF in mind...I just hope we don't suffer any world cup ending injuries...

Unfortunately over the next 3 weeks the odds are we will lose someone (maybe more than one) before we even depart for Japan.

Murphy in 2003 and Wallace in 2011 stick in my mind. There were probably others.

Henry Ford III

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Or, like them, he was never given a chance to , as the coach didn't like him

So that's the reason. Nothing to do with rugby. Of course. Why didn't the rest of the world think of that?

shootermacg

bilston wrote: »

Irrespective of the result, today could be a useful toughening exercise with the QF in mind...I just hope we don't suffer any world cup ending injuries...

Unfortunately over the next 3 weeks the odds are we will lose someone (maybe more than one) before we even depart for Japan.

Murphy in 2003 and Wallace in 2011 stick in my mind. There were probably others.

I think from the point where the contact starts in training, you kind of have to set these things aside or they'll drive you mad.

Legalfarmer89

Downlinz wrote: »

What impact? He has 6 tries in 10 years of international rugby and most of them against tier 2 teams along with a history of terrible line out throws.
He's a great player at club level but has never done anything on the international stage, it's time to stop pandering the myth that he can "step up" when hes never done so. Best, Scannell and Herring should be our travelling hookers on ability at this level.
Much like Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen and Alan Quinlan he'll be remembered as a great player at club level who was never able to make the grade at the highest level.

Bit harsh on Quinlan. Scored a pivotal try for Ireland in 2003 World Cup against Argentina when game was in the melting pot.

Injuries and indiscipline (I think) prevented him from making a bigger contribution.

ionadnapokot

Interview with Sextons kicking coach.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/dave-alred-physical-robots-kicking-game-rugby-world-cup-japan
he is one of the main reasons we hardly see the spiral anymore. Favours the end over end style for more control instead of distance.
I still feel Sexton could be getting a bit more distance out of his penalty kicks to touch.

Beechwoodspark

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Interview with Sextons kicking coach.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/dave-alred-physical-robots-kicking-game-rugby-world-cup-japan
he is one of the main reasons we hardly see the spiral anymore. Favours the end over end style for more control instead of distance.
I still feel Sexton could be getting a bit more distance out of his penalty kicks to touch.

“Bit more” as in, nearer the try line ?

Suspectman123

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

He ran into a huge gap between number 2 and a back that was caught covering an overlap, the run ended outside the other 22, you’re overselling that one, a straight run up the pitch that amounted to nothing, it was a while later when the forwards were going nowhere Ruddock gave away a stupid penalty. Ireland has another chance close to the line after that where Faf tackled Earls resulting in a turnover.
One we left behind. We’ve definitely improved since then though.

He gassed their 13 and then broke another covering tackle before offloading just before 22
His run started just outside his own 22 where Ireland were going nowhere
That’s a game changing moment, I’ll find a few more if you want but with your bias against him there’s no point in think...I’ll probably be “over selling it”

Jump_In_Jack

Suspectman123 wrote: »

He gassed their 13 and then broke another covering tackle before offloading just before 22
His run started just outside his own 22 where Ireland were going nowhere
That’s a game changing moment, I’ll find a few more if you want but with your bias against him there’s no point in think...I’ll probably be “over selling it”

No bias either way, just your example falls short.

Bazzo

We've had basically this same conversation but about Simon Zebo or Tiernan O'Halloran or Stuart McCloskey or whoever. Maybe they're just not quite as good as we as provincial fans make them out to be, maybe the coach underrates them a bit, maybe they're just not suitable to the game plan for the national team, maybe it's a bit of everything.

Shefwedfan

Just listened to Off the Ball from last night

Jesus Andy Dunne is awful to listen to. He used to be good and now he has decided he should be the negative voice and just everything is drool and negative. I can't actually listen to him anymore. The way he talks about player and how bad they are? Jesus you would swear he was Dan Carter when he played.

Also are Off the Ball every going to stop f**ing going on about Zebo? every week it is a question about Zebo

Then Andy Dunne pipes in with "he is playing the best rugby of his career?" has he actually watching Zebo in the last 12 months? he is nowhere near playing the best rugby, he has played far better with Munster and with Murray.

You listen to the podcast to get a bit of excitment about the WC and you listen to Dunne drooollllliiiinnnngggg on for 30mins and then a 10 min conversation about Zebo....

Wegians89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Just listened to Off the Ball from last night

Jesus Andy Dunne is awful to listen to. He used to be good and now he has decided he should be the negative voice and just everything is drool and negative. I can't actually listen to him anymore. The way he talks about player and how bad they are? Jesus you would swear he was Dan Carter when he played.

Also are Off the Ball every going to stop f**ing going on about Zebo? every week it is a question about Zebo

Then Andy Dunne pipes in with "he is playing the best rugby of his career?" has he actually watching Zebo in the last 12 months? he is nowhere near playing the best rugby, he has played far better with Munster and with Murray.

You listen to the podcast to get a bit of excitment about the WC and you listen to Dunne drooollllliiiinnnngggg on for 30mins and then a 10 min conversation about Zebo....

The worst was going to listen to Murray kinsella on the 42s podcast and then that clown would be on it and Murray being the gent he is would never really say no look you’re wrong Andy

Henry Ford III

There's a reason Zebo keeps cropping up you know.

He's a bit of an enigma. He undoubtedly has talent, skills, and vision. There are questions surrounding his attitude, fitness, and willingness to play in a strictly regimented gameplan.

Going to Paris meant his international prospects were scuppered.

Kearney isn't great either. I think he's past his best and is a liability at this level.

Faugheen

Henry Ford III wrote: »

There's a reason Zebo keeps cropping up you know.

He's a bit of an enigma. He undoubtedly has talent, skills, and vision. There are questions surrounding his attitude, fitness, and willingness to play in a strictly regimented gameplan.

Going to Paris meant his international prospects were scuppered.

Kearney isn't great either. I think he's past his best and is a liability at this level.

Kearney is still our best full-back by a country mile, and that includes Zebo.

Shefwedfan

Wegians89 wrote: »

The worst was going to listen to Murray kinsella on the 42s podcast and then that clown would be on it and Murray being the gent he is would never really say no look you’re wrong Andy

Andy was good a few seasons back, he was interesting and gave a new view


Then he was a bit negative once and must have got a good response to that. Every since then it is unreal. Best was last season going on about how great Scotland are....how he would refer to have Russell etc

Ireland beat Scotland, then started some other s**t he made up out of the blue to try and say beating Scotland was no good. Just made an idiot of himself



Now it is just a non stop negative. Even for a physio he had no idea about Carberry injury or why they would do operation, I know I wont be going to him

Henry Ford III

Faugheen wrote: »

Kearney is still our best full-back by a country mile, and that includes Zebo.

Can't agree, and even if he is we're doomed.

Faugheen

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Can't agree, and even if he is we're doomed.

Well you clearly don’t watch enough of any of our full-backs, because the only think Zebo has over Kearney is scoring tries, because he’s vastly inferior at everything else.

Henry Ford III

Faugheen wrote: »

Well you clearly don’t watch enough of any of our full-backs, because the only think Zebo has over Kearney is scoring tries, because he’s vastly inferior at everything else.

You've missed my point. I'm saying Kearney is not good enough at RWC level.

Saying he's the best we have doesn't change that.

Former Former

Zebo falls into the "not able to make the step up to test level" category. He's Sean Cronin with better social media nous.

My concern about Kearney is his ability to maintain fitness for six weeks without straining a glute or popping a hamstring. It looks like Larmour is second choice and that's risky.

Shefwedfan

Faugheen wrote: »

Well you clearly don’t watch enough of any of our full-backs, because the only think Zebo has over Kearney is scoring tries, because he’s vastly inferior at everything else.

It was Heaslip first and now it’s Kearney

It’s the same “fans” who are after Kearney as wanted Heaslip off the team

Kearney is still one of the best fullbacks in world rugby, with him at 15 Ireland can push up the wingers and he covers the entire back field solo....no other fullback in the world covers the back as well as Kearney

Yes he is not a massive threat for try’s but that is made up by releasing the wingers to attack

I just hope we don't get hammered today. I'll accept any other result.

Henry Ford III

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It was Heaslip first and now it’s Kearney

It’s the same “fans” who are after Kearney as wanted Heaslip off the team

Kearney is still one of the best fullbacks in world rugby, with him at 15 Ireland can push up the wingers and he covers the entire back field solo....no other fullback in the world covers the back as well as Kearney

Yes he is not a massive threat for try’s but that is made up by releasing the wingers to attack

He's a poor tackler. Would you like some examples?

yerrahbah

Its going to be tough listening to the Sky commentators

sydthebeat

Ah yes, the old "most decorated Irish rugby player" can't tackle argument.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

He's a poor tackler. Would you like some examples?

https://punditarena.com/rugby/bbarry/video-rob-kearney-makes-three-tackles-in-nine-seconds/

Henry Ford III

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://punditarena.com/rugby/bbarry/video-rob-kearney-makes-three-tackles-in-nine-seconds/

That was 4 years ago. There are multiple examples of him missing or even shirking tackles.

Henry Ford III

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ah yes, the old "most decorated Irish rugby player" can't tackle argument.

Can't or won't?


https://youtu.be/5h0o5kObFpQ

sydthebeat

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Can't or won't?


https://youtu.be/5h0o5kObFpQ

Seeing as he played every minute of our last two grand slams, it's obvious that the actual can tackle and, more importantly, the coaches do not see that as a potential hindrance to our game.

Yeah_Right

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Can't or won't?


https://youtu.be/5h0o5kObFpQ

That is unbelievable!! Shocking!! I have never ever seen a fullback get beaten by a player throwing a dummy in a 2 v 1 situation. Has that ever happened to any other fullback?

Ah lads, are we really lowering ourselves to these ridiculous back and forth's about Kearney?

Henry Ford III

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That is unbelievable!! Shocking!! I have never ever seen a fullback get beaten by a player throwing a dummy in a 2 v 1 situation. Has that ever happened to any other fullback?

https://images.app.goo.gl/M72DbkSRspHKq1fJ8