Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

The Rape of Lucretia

Forward pass to Stocks surely ?

Lovely stuff.

aloooof

Bazzo wrote: »

We've had basically this same conversation but about Simon Zebo or Tiernan O'Halloran or Stuart McCloskey or whoever. Maybe they're just not quite as good as we as provincial fans make them out to be, maybe the coach underrates them a bit, maybe they're just not suitable to the game plan for the national team, maybe it's a bit of everything.

Don't want to get drawn into a Zebo debate, but he's had a far far more prominent international career than all 3 of Cronin, O'Halloran and McCloskey.

Former Former wrote: »

Zebo falls into the "not able to make the step up to test level" category. He's Sean Cronin with better social media nous.

He's Sean Cronin with far more international starts. So not like Cronin at all.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

21 Tackles missed

Clegg

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

21 Tackles missed

It's a symptom of the forwards being monstered. England are winning every gain line and we can't slow their ball. PoM, Stander, Best etc have been crap since we beat New Zealand. We can't keep hoping they'll find form in time.

Clegg

I wonder will Ruddock come back into Schmidt's thinking now. He's a player that consistently wins the gain line in attack and defence. We don't have enough of those right now. Stander also doesn't have the skills to play when we're on the back foot. At least not at 8. Conan must surely be a goer now. And PoM, for all his expertise at the lineout, doesn't have the power to win the gain line.

We're going into a World Cup with our on field leaders playing like drains.

its_phil

Stockdale has no interest in stopping that try.

Clegg

My entirely reactionary 15 for the Scotland game

Healy (please god)
Scannell
Furlong
Henderson
Ryan
Stander
VdF
Conan

Murray
Sexton
Henshaw
Ringrose
Earls
Stockdale
Kearney

Henry Ford III

We're doomed.

schmoo2k

Clegg wrote: »

My entirely reactionary 15 for the Scotland game

Healy (please god)
Scannell
Furlong
Henderson
Ryan
Stander
VdF
Conan

Murray
Sexton
Henshaw
Ringrose
Earls
Stockdale
Kearney

Was stander even playing today - heard his name once I think.

AbusesToilets

Clegg wrote: »

I wonder will Ruddock come back into Schmidt's thinking now. He's a player that consistently wins the gain line in attack and defence. We don't have enough of those right now. Stander also doesn't have the skills to play when we're on the back foot. At least not at 8. Conan must surely be a goer now. And PoM, for all his expertise at the lineout, doesn't have the power to win the gain line.

We're going into a World Cup with our on field leaders playing like drains.

He should, but he won't. Joe doesn't want a player who makes takcles, hits rucks; who can also run with the ball in hand and throw a good pass.

salmocab

Only caught the second half and to be honest England looked at test level whilst we looked like a team in pre season.

I thought Larmour was fairly decent today. Our maul was good the one time we used it. Henderson was excellent outside of the set piece. Ross Byrne was convincing for 30 minutes.

Otherwise I can't think of much else positive. You have to try to give the benefit of the doubt after a performance like this. As an old coach of mine used to say "some performances are too bad to be true". Today was too bad to be true, we haven't become a team that this performance is representative of, we can't have.

It's a first game for a lot of these lads, England have had a few tests and played a game against one of the Italian sides behind closed doors. They are a side that doesn't strike me as needing much warming up, they go out and play blunt force trauma and we need to be in a different place altogether to deal with that whilst imposing our own play style.

I think we'll have two tight tests against Wales, wouldn't be surprised if we turned it around and won both.

If we get another beating by more than two scores I'll be legitimately worried about our World Cup. The problem with having a big blip like today is that you quite simply can not have another one.

The media are going to have a frenzy.

Squidgy Black

salmocab wrote: »

Only caught the second half and to be honest England looked at test level whilst we looked like a team in pre season.

England are definitely at test level tempo. The win against Wales in the first match, narrow loss in the 2nd for a try that now had a rule change implemented because of it, and hockeying us, they'll go into the WC on top form.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I just hope we don't get hammered today. I'll accept any other result.

Fcuk it anyway. That XV were coming in cold against a gelling England. If we're that bad after the Wales games then that's all she wrote.

RugbyLover123

That was shocking. The hard truth is we have peaked a year too early. There is no playing your cards close to your chest that explains that performance. Even if players are minding themselves and holding back a certain game plan that will spring us into life it doesn’t explain that performance.

We have a 38 year old hooker who offers nothing apart from his leadership qualities.

We have essentially a South African journeyman second row gunning for a starting spot.

Murray is off the boil & Sexton’s fitness is unreliable.

We have no lightning pace. We have Stockdale & Earls, who would be 4/5 fastest players in that England camp.

We can’t play our game against England & SA because they’re bigger and stronger then us.

We showed our hand in 2018 and we’ve been analysed to death now and we haven’t evolved it.

We’ll get out of our group I’m sure but it’ll take our biggest performance ever in the 1/4 final to get through it. And if we do I feel we’ll have nothing left after that.

AbusesToilets

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought Larmour was fairly decent today. Our maul was good the one time we used it. Henderson was excellent outside of the set piece. Ross Byrne was convincing for 30 minutes.

Otherwise I can't think of much else positive. You have to try to give the benefit of the doubt after a performance like this. As an old coach of mine used to say "some performances are too bad to be true". Today was too bad to be true, we haven't become a team that this performance is representative of, we can't have.

It's a first game for a lot of these lads, England have had a few tests and played a game against one of the Italian sides behind closed doors. They are a side that doesn't strike me as needing much warming up, they go out and play blunt force trauma and we need to be in a different place altogether to deal with that whilst imposing our own play style.

I think we'll have two tight tests against Wales, wouldn't be surprised if we turned it around and won both.

If we get another beating by more than two scores I'll be legitimately worried about our World Cup. The problem with having a big blip like today is that you quite simply can not have another one.

The media are going to have a frenzy.

That's true in isolation, and I'll readily accept this was a perfect storm of a preseason game against a flying English team; but this is a continuation of the same poor performances for the last season and half. No intensity, no attacking incision, terrible defense.

At some point it stops being an outlier and becomes the norm.

clsmooth

Has Stander lost a few kilos? Looked quite lightweight out there (literally)

Faugheen

Highlights just how much Conan’s stock goes up when he doesn’t play.

As I highlighted earlier, there’s no balance in that backrow, and there hasn’t been for a while.

When Stander wasn’t carrying today we were completely ineffective. He does most of the trucking as it is which is easy for teams like England to nullify, but when he isn’t doing it the back row is much worse. We know POM’s limitations there while VDF isn’t the strongest carrier either.

99problems1

Pressure is on Schmidt.

Unless he gets a semi final he's no better than Kidney. A couple 6 nations won on points difference is nothing amazing or impressive.

Burkie1203

99problems1 wrote: »

Pressure is on Schmidt.

Unless he gets a semi final he's no better than Kidney. A couple 6 nations won on points difference is nothing amazing or impressive.

Far more impressive then getting beaten by Italy and finishing 5th

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/SDM_Robertson/status/1165305396053139457?s=19

aloooof

99problems1 wrote: »

Pressure is on Schmidt.

Unless he gets a semi final he's no better than Kidney. A couple 6 nations won on points difference is nothing amazing or impressive.

This is nonsense. Even if we go out in a QF again, he’s still out best ever coach.

Even aside from the 6 Nations, he’s done plenty more that no other coach has ever done including:
- Beaten NZ twice.
- Won a Test in SA
- Won a Test series in Australia.

Calltocall

Where did it all go wrong

aloooof

Calltocall wrote: »

Where did it all go wrong

We haven’t even played a RWC game yet! It’s not ideal but people need to have some perspective.

Deaf student

Calltocall wrote: »

Where did it all go wrong

Think when Schmdit announced his exit as I got the impression that some players stopped playing knowing that he is on way out. Correct me if I'm wrong.

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

This is nonsense. Even if we go out in a QF again, he’s still out best ever coach.

Even aside from the 6 Nations, he’s done plenty more that no other coach has ever done including:
- Beaten NZ twice.
- Won a Test in SA
- Won a Test series in Australia.

That's great, genuinely so, but it's yesterday's news. Kidney won a GS and spent the rest of his tenure driving the team into the ground. If you don't evolve and improve, you're sunk, and I'd struggle to see how we've moved forward since 2018.

Burkie1203

Deaf student wrote: »

Think when Schmdit announced his exit as I got the impression that some players stopped playing knowing that he is on way out. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Gatland. Wales. Grand slam

The Lost Sheep

aloooof wrote: »

This is nonsense. Even if we go out in a QF again, he’s still out best ever coach.

Even aside from the 6 Nations, he’s done plenty more that no other coach has ever done including:
- Beaten NZ twice.
- Won a Test in SA
- Won a Test series in Australia.

But this will completely tarnish his reign as coach with the fall from the second win against NZ if we dont turn things around very soon.

aloooof wrote: »

We haven’t even played a RWC game yet! It’s not ideal but people need to have some perspective.

Both the critics and defenders do need some perspective. We havent travelled to Japan yet but poor performances and everything else is a real big worry

Exclamation Marc

Deaf student wrote: »

Think when Schmdit announced his exit as I got the impression that some players stopped playing knowing that he is on way out. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong. Players aren't playing for Joe. No logic in them stopping because he's leaving.

Exclamation Marc

My only real concerns after today is the line out and Stockdales defence.

It's hard to properly weight these games because players may be holding a back a bit, perhaps certain plays are being held back, systems are still being developed and fine tuned and in open play it's hard to judge. I'm not saying they are but none of us will ever know so putting huge value on open play in these games is tough. Set pieces though should be fairly standard.

The line out, as a fairly consistent move was egregiously misfiring. 6 (?) lost lineouts is unacceptable and really should play Scannell into contention. Cronin is electric in open play but Scannell's reliability at the darts is needed. Best is completely unreliable in clutch situations and doesn't bring much on the pitch otherwise.

Stockdale's defence was abysmal today. Rushed up far too often and didn't learn. Something that can hopefully be tweaked as he's too good an attacker to drop.

AbusesToilets

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

My only real concern after today is the line out and Stockdales defence.

It's hard to properly weight these games because players may be holding a back a bit, perhaps certain plays are being held back, systems are still being developed and fine tuned and in open play it's hard to judge. Set pieces though should be fairly standard.

The line out, as a fairly consistent move was egregiously misfiring. 6 (?) lost lineouts is unacceptable and really should play Scannell into contention. Best is completely unreliable in clutch situations and doesn't bring much on the pitch otherwise.

Stockdales defence was abysmal today. Rushed up far too often and didn't learn. Something that can hopefully be tweaked as he's too good an attacker to drop.

I'd give him some leeway, as a few of those were down to poor alignment inside of him. Aki/ Byrne were turned inside out a few times, leaving Stockdale isolated.

dh1985

99problems1 wrote: »

Pressure is on Schmidt.

Unless he gets a semi final he's no better than Kidney. A couple 6 nations won on points difference is nothing amazing or impressive.

Lads like you have short memories. Beats the all blacks twice.never done before. Grand slam. Six nations wins. Tour win in SH. Record no of tests unbeaten. With a lesser team than kidney had.

The Lost Sheep

dh1985 wrote: »

Lads like you have short memories. Beats the all blacks twice.never done before. Grand slam. Six nations wins. Tour win in SH. Record no of tests unbeaten. With a lesser team than kidney had.

But if he cant do what no irish coach has done before and considering all that he has done that you list its even worse.

thegreycity

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But if he cant do what no irish coach has done before and considering all that he has done that you list its even worse.

Is this a sentence?

Shefwedfan

What a load of rubbish

Joe will be the best coach ever in Ireland, nobody can touch his records at club or international level

Comparing to Kidney is laughable

Especially after a warm up game against England.....which has no relevance at all

Saying pressure is on Schmidt now? Why was it not on him before?

The Lost Sheep

thegreycity wrote: »

Is this a sentence?

Sorry. He deserves plenty of credit but 2019 will completely tarnish everything if we do as weve done at every single world cup and not get near winning a knock out game

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What a load of rubbish

Joe will be the best coach ever in Ireland, nobody can touch his records at club or international level

Comparing to Kidney is laughable

Especially after a warm up game against England.....which has no relevance at all

He is a very good coach but its the treatment by many here and in the media that he's up there as a saint and all too many of those critical of him are lambasted.

Shefwedfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Sorry. He deserves plenty of credit but 2019 will completely tarnish everything if we do as weve done at every single world cup and not get near winning a knock out game

He is a very good coach but its the treatment by many here and in the media that he's up there as a saint and all too many of those critical of him are lambasted.

Yes be critical

But idiotic statement about he is only a kidney
No better than any other coach

Sorry but anyone saying that doesn’t have a clue about rugby and doesn’t have a clue about the history of Irish rugby

dh1985

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But if he cant do what no irish coach has done before and considering all that he has done that you list its even worse.

Time will tell.writing off a team 4 weeks before the world cup starts is lunacy. Its definitely about peaking at the right time and peaking in a warm up game in August is hardly his plan. Scotland go hammered two weeks ago against France and beat them today. These games don't mean a lot. That's Irelands first game together with what half looks like a preferred 15. Theres 8 weeks of rugby before a qf. schmidt is too good of a coach to have a poor six nations and not be able to develop a gameplan to leave opposition wondering.

thegreycity

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Sorry. He deserves plenty of credit but 2019 will completely tarnish everything if we do as weve done at every single world cup and not get near winning a knock out game

Sorry for being a dick, I'm in a bad mood now.

99problems1

aloooof wrote: »

This is nonsense. Even if we go out in a QF again, he’s still out best ever coach.

Even aside from the 6 Nations, he’s done plenty more that no other coach has ever done including:
- Beaten NZ twice.
- Won a Test in SA
- Won a Test series in Australia.

I put as much weight in those "tests" as todays defeat. if he's getting credit for those then he needs to add record defeat in Twickenham there too.

Exclamation Marc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Sorry. He deserves plenty of credit but 2019 will completely tarnish everything if we do as weve done at every single world cup and not get near winning a knock out game

He is a very good coach but its the treatment by many here and in the media that he's up there as a saint and all too many of those critical of him are lambasted.

We're not the best team in the world. There has always been teams better than us so taking the green tinted glasses off, if we did win, we're essentially punching above our weight.

To ignore everything outside of the World Cup is your prerogative but whilst it's the biggest game in town by far, it's not the only one. He has been a huge success and is the best coach we've had. World Cup failure will sting (and hard) but it doesn't negate everything else he's done.

Criticism is deserved today but perspective is needed too or we'd have a new coach every year.

The Lost Sheep

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes be critical

But idiotic statement about he is only a kidney
No better than any other coach

Sorry but anyone saying that doesn’t have a clue about rugby and doesn’t have a clue about the history of Irish rugby

You are being unfair on kidney there but im more stating we've been on a very downward spiral this calender year and if we dont reach a semi final he'll just be the same as every other irish coach in terms of the world cup. not able to get us to win a knock out game and despite all the great work and beating NZ etc has been huge its ultimately a major failure and tarnishes a lot of that

dh1985 wrote: »

Time will tell.writing off a team 4 weeks before the world cup starts is lunacy. Its definitely about peaking at the right time and peaking in a warm up game in August is hardly his plan. Scotland go hammered two weeks ago against France and beat them today. These games don't mean a lot. That's Irelands first game together with what half looks like a preferred 15. Theres 8 weeks of rugby before a qf. schmidt is too good of a coach to have a poor six nations and not be able to develop a gameplan to leave opposition wondering.

Not writing Ireland off at all but its majorly worrying. Yes its about peaking at the right time but we've went backwards this calender year and how much do we really look like turning that around to beat South Africa or New Zealand in a quarter final. there is 6 games to turn that around and do you really see that happening.
How much of a gameplan have we hidden to do that to opposition though? Bit much to expect we've been hiding so much to keep opponents guessing while playing so poorly on the pitch

Calltocall

aloooof wrote: »

We haven’t even played a RWC game yet! It’s not ideal but people need to have some perspective.

I hear you to an extent but if we’re honest this team have been on a downward trend for quite some time, from the very poor six nations to the recent matches and obviously today, they haven’t been able to break that trend and I can’t see them turning this downward spiral around in four weeks, I’d be delighted and hope I’m wrong but it’s not looking good.

AbusesToilets

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You are being unfair on kidney there but im more stating we've been on a very downward spiral this calender year and if we dont reach a semi final he'll just be the same as every other irish coach in terms of the world cup. not able to get us to win a knock out game and despite all the great work and beating NZ etc has been huge its ultimately a major failure and tarnishes a lot of that

Not writing Ireland off at all but its majorly worrying. Yes its about peaking at the right time but we've went backwards this calender year and how much do we really look like turning that around to beat South Africa or New Zealand in a quarter final. there is 6 games to turn that around and do you really see that happening.
How much of a gameplan have we hidden to do that to opposition though? Bit much to expect we've been hiding so much to keep opponents guessing while playing so poorly on the pitch

Only one who looked like they were guessing were wearing green.

99problems1

dh1985 wrote: »

Lads like you have short memories. Beats the all blacks twice.never done before. Grand slam. Six nations wins. Tour win in SH. Record no of tests unbeaten. With a lesser team than kidney had.

There is a media hype around Joe that is weird. I think it's because he's foreign they treat him better.

The pundits, on RTE especially just salivate over him. "joe always has a plan!!", as if other coaches don't have plans or tactics...

He's been manager for 6 years now. He has won 3 Six Nations, one of which was a grandslam. Meaning 2 of those wins he finished level on points with other teams. When a 6 Nations really centres on 3 games (France, England and Wales), winning 2 out of 3 and finishing level on points with one of those teams is nothing too impressive.

Gatland has won 4 titles, 3 grand slams in 11 years (didn't even manage for a year or two due to Lions). He's also made a world cup semi final and won Lions tours along the way too.

Schmidt has won 3 of 8 against Wales.

Gatland is a better coach, achieved more with far less resources.

At the end of the day, those "tests" against Sa, NZ etc. are meaningless, they exist purely to make money for the Unions.

Exclamation Marc

99problems1 wrote: »

He's been manager for 6 years now. He has won 3 Six Nations, one of which was a grandslam. Meaning 2 of those wins he finished level on points with other teams. When a 6 Nations really centres on 3 games (France, England and Wales), winning 2 out of 3 and finishing level on points with one of those teams is nothing too impressive.

I've never seen such a bizarre deduction of the Six Nations that winning it is "nothing too impressive".

99problems1 wrote: »

At the end of the day, those "tests" against Sa, NZ etc. are meaningless, they exist purely to make money for the Unions.

You must really not enjoy international rugby for 3 years, 10 months at a time.

Former Former

I remember posting a few months ago that anything other than a stellar world cup would see Joe's achievements disregarded by a large minority who actively want him to fail.

We didn't even make it as far as the RWC and they're out.

JPCN1

A convent half full of octogenarian Nun's would pose more threat in attack than we do presently. Even in full habit.

LostArt

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You are being unfair on kidney there but im more stating we've been on a very downward spiral this calender year and if we dont reach a semi final he'll just be the same as every other irish coach in terms of the world cup. not able to get us to win a knock out game and despite all the great work and beating NZ etc has been huge its ultimately a major failure and tarnishes a lot of that

Not writing Ireland off at all but its majorly worrying. Yes its about peaking at the right time but we've went backwards this calender year and how much do we really look like turning that around to beat South Africa or New Zealand in a quarter final. there is 6 games to turn that around and do you really see that happening.
How much of a gameplan have we hidden to do that to opposition though? Bit much to expect we've been hiding so much to keep opponents guessing while playing so poorly on the pitch

I thought we were hiding a game plan coming into 2015 as well... I'm sure there are some aspects we are holding back but the performance of a lot of our top players just hasn't been good enough in 2019.
Best, one if not both of Pom or Stander needs dropping based on the past year, with Conan in and maybe Hendo into 6. I'd be very tempted to give Chris Farrell a shot at 12 or 13 too.