Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

The Lost Sheep

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

We're not the best team in the world. There has always been teams better than us so taking the green tinted glasses off, if we did win, we're essentially punching above our weight.

To ignore everything outside of the World Cup is your prerogative but whilst it's the biggest game in town by far, it's not the only one. He has been a huge success and is the best coach we've had. World Cup failure will sting (and hard) but it doesn't negate everything else he's done.

Criticism is deserved today but perspective is needed too or we'd have a new coach every year.

Im not ignoring everything outside the world cup but you have to put an overriding focus on it and considering our record in recent years if we dont turn things around it does heavily taint what has been done. We've beaten everyone in past 4 years bar new zealand away and we've done it home and away but to then fade as badly in the calender year of world cup does heavily tarnish what has been done.
Perspective is needed. Im dont want to be all doom and gloom but i dont see all too much at all that can show we can do what we havent done before

99problems1 wrote: »

There is a media hype around Joe that is weird. I think it's because he's foreign they treat him better.

The pundits, on RTE especially just salivate over him. "joe always has a plan!!", as if other coaches don't have plans or tactics...

He's been manager for 6 years now. He has won 3 Six Nations, one of which was a grandslam. Meaning 2 of those wins he finished level on points with other teams. When a 6 Nations really centres on 3 games (France, England and Wales), winning 2 out of 3 and finishing level on points with one of those teams is nothing too impressive.

Gatland has won 4 titles, 3 grand slams in 11 years (didn't even manage for a year or two due to Lions). He's also made a world cup semi final and won Lions tours along the way too.

Schmidt has won 3 of 8 against Wales.

Gatland is a better coach, achieved more with far less resources.

At the end of the day, those "tests" against Sa, NZ etc. are meaningless, they exist purely to make money for the Unions.

Dont think its anything to do with Schmidt being foreign. You cant tarnish the 6 nations wins as not being too impressive.
I agree with some of the analysis,lack criticism of schmidt
And the tests in november/june arent meaningless. The way players, coaches treat them show theyre not.

99problems1

99problems1 wrote: »

At the end of the day, those "tests" against Sa, NZ etc. are meaningless, they exist purely to make money for the Unions.

Whatever about the rest of that nonsense post, this is always how you know you're dealing with someone who hasn't the faintest clue about the sport. Like not a rashers.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

People who say the New Zealand victories mean nothing are bandwagoners, nothing more. I believe arsenal are playing tonight. What are you even doing on a rugby message board??

Shefwedfan

99problems1 wrote: »

There is a media hype around Joe that is weird. I think it's because he's foreign they treat him better.

The pundits, on RTE especially just salivate over him. "joe always has a plan!!", as if other coaches don't have plans or tactics...

He's been manager for 6 years now. He has won 3 Six Nations, one of which was a grandslam. Meaning 2 of those wins he finished level on points with other teams. When a 6 Nations really centres on 3 games (France, England and Wales), winning 2 out of 3 and finishing level on points with one of those teams is nothing too impressive.

Gatland has won 4 titles, 3 grand slams in 11 years (didn't even manage for a year or two due to Lions). He's also made a world cup semi final and won Lions tours along the way too.

Schmidt has won 3 of 8 against Wales.

Gatland is a better coach, achieved more with far less resources.

At the end of the day, those "tests" against Sa, NZ etc. are meaningless, they exist purely to make money for the Unions.

You actually haven’t a clue what you are talking about.....

Every single bit of the post is incorrect....so no point even starting to rebuff it

lawrencesummers

Former Former wrote: »

I remember posting a few months ago that anything other than a stellar world cup would see Joe's achievements disregarded by a large minority who actively want him to fail.

We didn't even make it as far as the RWC and they're out.

Your confusing people who want him to fail with people who can see the writing on the wall with regards the team selection, tactics and performance.

You will not be able to find an Irish rugby fan that wants him to fail, but there are plenty who are saying failure is inevitable on the course we have been plotting for 18 months, and I’m one of them.

I see the World Cup being a failure unless some drastic decisions are made to shake up the squad, and even then I’m not sure there is enough time for those changes to be effective, let alone someone as conservative as Joe allowing them to happen.

Too many questions hang over pivotal positions (2,9,10,15) and they are positions where Joe has been overly loyal to select players.

molloyjh

18 months? In that time we've won a GS, a tour to Australia and beaten NZ. 10 months ago youd have struggled to find many people complaining about where we were. It's just all gone tits up since then.

Exclamation Marc

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Too many questions hang over pivotal positions (2,9,10,15) and they are positions where Joe has been overly loyal to select players.

There are no questions over 9 or 10. Questions over 20 and 21 maybe but not over these two.

There'll always be questions over 15 due to some people's ingrained dislike over the current incumbent.

2 is the issue, I'll give you that, and its a huge issue when line-outs cannot be avoided.

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Your confusing people who want him to fail with people who can see the writing on the wall with regards the team selection, tactics and performance.

You will not be able to find an Irish rugby fan that wants him to fail, but there are plenty who are saying failure is inevitable on the course we have been plotting for 18 months, and I’m one of them.

I see the World Cup being a failure unless some drastic decisions are made to shake up the squad, and even then I’m not sure there is enough time for those changes to be effective, let alone someone as conservative as Joe allowing them to happen.

Too many questions hang over pivotal positions (2,9,10,15) and they are positions where Joe has been overly loyal to select players.

Their is certain sections of the Irish fan base who love nothing better for Joe to fail and to try and tarnish his reputation

As soon as anything went a little awry they popped up....even during the good times some elements complaining because he got an easy ride

I remember Ireland losing every game to 2011
World Cup and I don’t see the out cry going on now...

These are warm up games, meant to try things, England looked way sharper than Ireland and a few of the combinations are clearly not working

Better to find out now that in Japan after losing to Scotland.....

Burkie1203

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Too many questions hang over pivotal positions (2,9,10,15) and they are positions where Joe has been overly loyal to select players.

I would add 6 and 8 to that if we persist as is.

I think Murrays form is still a concern and with Carberys injury i think 10 is a concern

The Lost Sheep

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Your confusing people who want him to fail with people who can see the writing on the wall with regards the team selection, tactics and performance.

You will not be able to find an Irish rugby fan that wants him to fail, but there are plenty who are saying failure is inevitable on the course we have been plotting for 18 months, and I’m one of them.

I see the World Cup being a failure unless some drastic decisions are made to shake up the squad, and even then I’m not sure there is enough time for those changes to be effective, let alone someone as conservative as Joe allowing them to happen.

Too many questions hang over pivotal positions (2,9,10,15) and they are positions where Joe has been overly loyal to select players.

18 months though? I only see the issues really being here this calender year. In 2018 we won a grand slam, beat NZ. Won series in Australia.
What do you see as necessary in terms of shaking squad up. You do need to keep Best, CM, JS etc around and yes theyve tried play some of them into form and not worked but what else should you do?

P.Walnuts

We really need to look to bring Conan in, that backrow today was lightweight and sorely lacking in go forward.

CJ to 6 and Conan to 8 seems like the best option....POM getting dropped seems unlikely given what we know about Joe's selections

lawrencesummers

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

There are no questions over 9 or 10. Questions over 20 and 21 maybe but not over these two.

There'll always be questions over 15 due to some people's ingrained dislike over the current incumbent.

2 is the issue, I'll give you that, and its a huge issue when line-outs cannot be avoided.

No questions over 9/10???

You should have watched the 6 nations.

lawrencesummers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Their is certain sections of the Irish fan base who love nothing better for Joe to fail and to try and tarnish his reputation

As soon as anything went a little awry they popped up....even during the good times some elements complaining because he got an easy ride

I remember Ireland losing every game to 2011
World Cup and I don’t see the out cry going on now...

These are warm up games, meant to try things, England looked way sharper than Ireland and a few of the combinations are clearly not working

Better to find out now that in Japan after losing to Scotland.....

As I said, the writing had been on the wall for longer

Shefwedfan

P.Walnuts wrote: »

We really need to look to bring Conan in, that backrow today was lightweight and sorely lacking in go forward.

CJ to 6 and Conan to 8 seems like the best option....POM getting dropped seems unlikely given what we know about Joe's selections

POM is not a 7 and even he was he is playing dire

The main reason everyone says he has to play is lineout, which was awful today

Burkie1203

Just looked at Twitter and it's a mish mash of hysteria, head in sand and weak excuses

One conversation I found, apparently Standers role is now as link man. Have i missed something here? Like that's simply not his game at all

The Lost Sheep

lawrencesummers wrote: »

As I said, the writing had been on the wall for longer

It hasnt though when you looked at what we did last year. It hasnt been writing on the wall before that. Claiming that is bs.

Burkie1203

Shefwedfan wrote: »

POM is not a 7 and even he was he is playing dire

The main reason everyone says he has to play is lineout, which was awful today

And leadership

Kleyn according to the media plays the enforcer role. Which means he is average but big and strong but we still got outmuscled. Leinster beat R92 in Bilbao in conditions more suited to them because they played smart.

Ireland are not playing smart.

Neil3030

Selected tweets from you-know-who(wan):

The shallower the brook, the more it babbles. Rant and unfollow away but Irish rugby, the house built on Dalkey sand.

Was today a test match or not? Funny that when New Zealand were missing players, away from home, unlucky, unfit, exhausted, it didn't matter. Far from gloating let this be an example of the smug, delusional, hyperbolic, hypocrisy we go on with and that should stop. Learn from it.

Thinking about Irish rugby team, and the Celtic Tiger so apt. Same schools produce same people. Big men on small stage. All talk. But when world gets interested they wet the bed like developers transferring the lot into wife's name. I say frauds. Prove me wrong in Japan.

The man enjoys seeing Ireland lose so much, I'm convinced it's a sex thing.

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

As I said, the writing had been on the wall for longer

Since when?

lawrencesummers

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I would add 6 and 8 to that if we persist as is.

I think Murrays form is still a concern and with Carberys injury i think 10 is a concern

I think you can add a few more players to that list.

Of 1-15 how many do you personally think are nailed on starters, and how many do you think Joe thinks are nailed on starters?

Personally I think 7 players are shoe ins, (1,3,4,5,12,13,14) with every other place up for grabs because the person in that jersey isn’t playing to a level good enough, but realistically there is only one position up for grabs - openside and 3 into 2 in midfield with the other on the bench.

lawrencesummers

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It hasnt though when you looked at what we did last year. It hasnt been writing on the wall before that. Claiming that is bs.

2018 was our peak, but the issues are not just about results, they are about blind loyalty to some players even when they are not performing, they are around not evolving a game plan, the lack of honest competition in the squad.

People hold joe in very high esteem, he has already been our most successful coach, but he is not flawless.

The Lost Sheep

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Their is certain sections of the Irish fan base who love nothing better for Joe to fail and to try and tarnish his reputation

As soon as anything went a little awry they popped up....even during the good times some elements complaining because he got an easy ride

I remember Ireland losing every game to 2011
World Cup and I don’t see the out cry going on now...

These are warm up games, meant to try things, England looked way sharper than Ireland and a few of the combinations are clearly not working

Better to find out now that in Japan after losing to Scotland.....

There very much was similar crying going on up to 11.
Schmidt does get an easy ride from some parts.
These are warm up games and trying some things out but we've had a decline this year and he deserves criticism for that but that hasnt really been the case.

Burkie1203

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There very much was similar crying going on up to 11.
Schmidt does get an easy ride from some parts.
These are warm up games and trying some things out but we've had a decline this year and he deserves criticism for that but that hasnt really been the case.

But we haven't really tried anything. Some of the same players producing the same crap as 6 months ago. Nothing remotely close to trying to evolve our game from what im seeing.

crossman47

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What a load of rubbish

Joe will be the best coach ever in Ireland, nobody can touch his records at club or international level

Comparing to Kidney is laughable

Especially after a warm up game against England.....which has no relevance at all

Saying pressure is on Schmidt now? Why was it not on him before?

I basically agree but your comment is unfair to Kidney who led us to a Grand Slam and led Munster to a Heineken Cup.

Burkie1203

crossman47 wrote: »

I basically agree but your comment is unfair to Kidney who led us to a Grand Slam and led Munster to a Heineken Cup.

Joe has 2 6n on top of that and a 2nd HC.

thebaz

al the hallmarks - of deja - vu -

Ireland peak a year too early -

I was a huge Schmidt fan from his leinster days , but this calendar year the magic seams gone - happens to coaches - Mourihno/ Wegner -

tactics seam stale , selections conservative - continued selection of Murray when out of form / Cronin never getting a decent shout. I was slated here a year ago for questioning POM consistency.

Rob Kearney and Rory Best are a year too old to be leading our WC campaign.

The team needs radical change now, might be too late , but hopefully Johnny and Ryan and a changed back row and maybe a fit Robbie H might get some form back .

Predict a usual WC , out of our group and a decent performance in quarters , but ultimatly a gallant loss

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

al the hallmarks - of deja - vu -

Ireland peak a year too early -

I was a huge Schmidt fan from his leinster days , but this calendar year the magic seams gone - happens to coaches - Mourihno/ Wegner -

tactics seam stale , selections conservative - continued selection of Murray when out of form / Cronin never getting a decent shout. I was slated here a year ago for questioning POM consistency.

Rob Kearney and Rory Best are a year too old to be leading our WC campaign.

The team needs radical change now, might be too late , but hopefully Johnny and Ryan and a changed back row and maybe a fit Robbie H might get some form back .

Predict a usual WC , out of our group and a decent performance in quarters , but ultimatly a gallant loss

Rob Kearney was probably one of our better backs today.

Best made two tackles, and missed two more.

thebaz

Deleted User wrote: »

Rob Kearney was probably one of our better backs today.

5 years ago Rob was one of the best full backs in the world - he is not that today ;

My point was more that Joe does seam to have gone stale, from the brilliant coach he was when he took over.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

thebaz wrote: »

5 years ago Rob was one of the best full backs in the world

Who would you have at 15?

thebaz

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Who would you have at 15?

right now Rob is the best 15 - but in hindesight someone like Larmour or Conway should have been transitioned in - too late now

Shefwedfan

Just before everyone loses their minds

I do hope most people are aware in all probability ireland will lose against wales

What ireland don’t need to do now is suddenly play first team and risk injuries

They need to try some combinations and that’s its

P.Walnuts

Shefwedfan wrote: »

POM is not a 7 and even he was he is playing dire

The main reason everyone says he has to play is lineout, which was awful today

I'm not sure of your point but I think we both agree that POM should be dropped.

Speeches under our own posts when we've conceded our 6th try can only get you so far

Shefwedfan

thebaz wrote: »

right now Rob is the best 15 - but in hindesight someone like Larmour or Conway should have been transitioned in - too late now

Conway is not up to standard, even Munster realized that and bought a fullback

Zebo left and was 100% aware that meant he was out of picture

Larmour has jumped the rest because they all fell off as not good enough

Utah_Saint

Wonder will they drop Aki. Worth giving Farrell a shot

molloyjh

I'm not quite sure how much of this is on Joe tbh. We do seem to be looking to play differently. We've seen signs of attempts to play more openly and expensively. Look at the first quarter today. Rob recieved a kick and rather than run it back into contact he ran into midfield, drew 3 men and gave a basketball pass to put us into space on the right wing and when Ringrose got hit on the touchline he looked for the offload in contact. It seems to me we are looking to play with more width and keep the ball alive more.

Is it the coaches fault that some forwards are putting in so few tackles? Is it the coaches fault that we've gone from a team well able to hold our own against the biggest of teams, to a side that seem miles away from being physically able? Maybe, but it's unlikely. The same forwards who seemed capable of holding their own against anyone now cant hold their own against top sides. They need to figure out why that is.

The Lost Sheep

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not quite sure how much of this is on Joe tbh. We do seem to be looking to play differently. We've seen signs of attempts to play more openly and expensively. Look at the first quarter today. Rob recieved a kick and rather than run it back into contact he ran into midfield, drew 3 men and gave a basketball pass to put us into space on the right wing and when Ringrose got hit on the touchline he looked for the offload in contact. It seems to me we are looking to play with more width and keep the ball alive more.

Is it the coaches fault that some forwards are putting in so few tackles? Is it the coaches fault that we've gone from a team well able to hold our own against the biggest of teams, to a side that seem miles away from being physically able? Maybe, but it's unlikely. The same forwards who seemed capable of holding their own against anyone now cant hold their own against top sides. They need to figure out why that is.

I think it has to be on him. He's the head coach he has the ultimate responsibility for what team is doing.

thebaz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Larmour has jumped the rest because they all fell off as not good enough

Larmour is an excellent player who could have been coached in , and I believe Conway likewise - even Zebo- now we are stuck with Rob , even though his best days are well past

clsmooth

thebaz wrote: »

right now Rob is the best 15 - but in hindesight someone like Larmour or Conway should have been transitioned in - too late now

If anyone else was a better option they would have put their hand up. They haven’t.

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

right now Rob is the best 15 - but in hindesight someone like Larmour or Conway should have been transitioned in - too late now

This simply isn't true.

Since the start of the 2018 season which is roughly when Larmour broke through - both he and Kearney have gained 13 caps a piece.

Larmour is coming through, he was one of our few above 6 performances today. He's had loads of chances, Kearney is still just better. Getting close though.

lawrencesummers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Just before everyone loses their minds

I do hope most people are aware in all probability ireland will lose against wales

What ireland don’t need to do now is suddenly play first team and risk injuries

They need to try some combinations and that’s its

The main thing I want to see from the Wales game is Johnny Sexton playing, and playing something close to good because if he doesn’t it leaves one game for him to find form before he has to play well.

thebaz

clsmooth wrote: »

If anyone else was a better option they would have put their hand up. They haven’t.

well i think Joe in his early days would have been more imaginative and made something happen , everthing has got stale the past 6 months.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Just before everyone loses their minds

I do hope most people are aware in all probability ireland will lose against wales

What ireland don’t need to do now is suddenly play first team and risk injuries

They need to try some combinations and that’s its

Ireland need to beat Wales out of sight both weeks in a row.

You can't not react to what happened today. You can't just flick a switch in Japan.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not quite sure how much of this is on Joe tbh. We do seem to be looking to play differently. We've seen signs of attempts to play more openly and expensively. Look at the first quarter today. Rob recieved a kick and rather than run it back into contact he ran into midfield, drew 3 men and gave a basketball pass to put us into space on the right wing and when Ringrose got hit on the touchline he looked for the offload in contact. It seems to me we are looking to play with more width and keep the ball alive more.

Is it the coaches fault that some forwards are putting in so few tackles? Is it the coaches fault that we've gone from a team well able to hold our own against the biggest of teams, to a side that seem miles away from being physically able? Maybe, but it's unlikely. The same forwards who seemed capable of holding their own against anyone now cant hold their own against top sides. They need to figure out why that is.

I'd be quite critical of Joe to be honest. The only reason I'm not is because if there was anyone who could fix this coaching in World rugby it's him.

clsmooth

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The main thing I want to see from the Wales game is Johnny Sexton playing, and playing something close to good because if he doesn’t it leaves one game for him to find form before he has to play well.

Sexton will be no use unless our pack can sort themselves out and get us some go forward ball. That’s the issue. Sexton would have had a nightmare today as would have Beauden Barrett if he had the good fortune of being born on our fair isle.

clsmooth

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland need to beat Wales out of sight both weeks in a row.

You can't not react to what happened today. You can't just flick a switch in Japan.

A home win against Wales and a much improved performance in a relatively close away defeat with no injuries will do us just fine.

lawrencesummers

clsmooth wrote: »

Sexton will be no use unless our pack can sort themselves out and get us some go forward ball. That’s the issue. Sexton would have had a nightmare today as would have Beauden Barrett if he had the good fortune of being born on our fair isle.

The pack can, and will up their game have no doubt about that, but we are asking for trouble if Sexton isn’t on form for the Scotland game.

thebaz

Deleted User wrote: »

This simply isn't true.

not sure what not true - I was a massive Kearney fan , probably best 15 we ever had , but he is not the player he was 5 or 6 years ago , when he was up with the very best.

Shefwedfan

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I'm not sure of your point but I think we both agree that POM should be dropped.

Speeches under our own posts when we've conceded our 6th try can only get you so far

Sorry was watching back the game and my mate was saying POM is undropable because of lineout....should have said to him and not boards

ionadnapokot

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland need to beat Wales out of sight both weeks in a row.

You can't not react to what happened today. You can't just flick a switch in Japan.

I think some key personnel changes and an actual performance in the basics v Wales is what is needed. I feel this eve we are now in worse situation to 07.
Writing was on the wall in giant OH **** letters during the 6N. Ireland were in full blown panic mode during it and then morale completely collapsed v Wales.
We had an excellent 6N in 07 then tried to play champagne rugby in WC but we’re rusted to ****. Went into full blown crisis mode and then morale completely collapsed vArgentina.

But there still maybe a silver lining here....bear with me!
I still believe that we will have an almighty battle to get out of our group. Lucky that we have Scot and Jap as our rivals. But Unlucky that we have Scotland first up and 6 days later Japan.

Joe has long decided that they are going to try and bludgeon those teams into submission. But if we concede an early try against Scotland...I tell you now will loose that game. It could then get real ugly, really quickly against Japan if we concede an early try in that game.

I still have faith in Joe but now he needs to make some HUGE selection calls.
He has two games to find an alternative to Murray.
He needs Sexton to play a good 120 mins and pray he doesn’t get broke.
Hooker. Our captain. Stick or twist? I think he has to brave and call it now for the Scotland game at least. Start the alternatives v Wales and follow it through.
Joey. What to do? Well he needs to decide on his other OH. Byrne or Carty and give him the other 40mins.
Unfortunately I think we are back to relying on the “fear of God” edge to ensure we do bludgeon the slowest of slow starters Scotland from minute 1 to 60 and roll on to Japan with more of the same.

Shefwedfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ireland need to beat Wales out of sight both weeks in a row.

You can't not react to what happened today. You can't just flick a switch in Japan.

Ireland on top form can’t win in Cardiff, so it ain’t happening

We need to get the combination right and win at home