Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

molloyjh

lawrencesummers wrote: »

clsmooth wrote: »

Sexton will be no use unless our pack can sort themselves out and get us some go forward ball. That’s the issue. Sexton would have had a nightmare today as would have Beauden Barrett if he had the good fortune of being born on our fair isle.

The pack can, and will up their game have no doubt about that, but we are asking for trouble if Sexton isn’t on form for the Scotland game.

When? They've been way off the pace since February.

clsmooth

thebaz wrote: »

well i think Joe in his early days would have been more imaginative and made something happen , everthing has got stale the past 6 months.

He’s done his best to develop Larmour as a back 3 option and convert Porter into a TH over the past 2 years. Possibly he could have looked at Carbery more as a 15 but then he would have gotten even less time at 10. He gave Jackson plenty of time at 10 before that option was taken off the cards. You could make an argument that he’s not developed our options at 9 enough, but when Marmions started at 9 he’s done well so how much more time do you give him?

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

not sure what not true - I was a massive Kearney fan , probably best 15 we ever had , but he is not the player he was 5 or 6 years ago , when he was up with the very best.

That's fair enough but I'll ask again - who would you replace him with?

You suggested you wouldn't, but if Larmour had gotten more play time he'd be ahead. Larmour picked up the same number of caps and spent the same amount of time in camp. We won a Grand Slam and a Southern Hemisphere tour during this time.

How has he not gotten enough development?

Is it not more likely that Kearney is still just better than the other options?

Like - Stockdale wishes he played like Kearney today. I don't know what your beef with the guy is, he was far from the problem.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ireland on top form can’t win in Cardiff, so it ain’t happening

Oh, ok then.

clsmooth

Think it’s a question of getting our back row balance right to get a bit more carrying options on the pitch. Henderson/VDF/Stander or Stander/VDF/Conan might be worth a run out in one of the Wales games. Would like to see our forwards passing between themselves a little more and less one out runners. The likes of Furlong at first receiver popping inside or outside to the likes of Healy/Ryan/VDF at pace. Think Leavy’s try vs Saracens last year. Just a little bit more variation to get over the gain line. Once you make than initial break, some quick ball and then you’ll start to see the likes of Stander making yards again against a retreating defence.

AbusesToilets

clsmooth wrote: »

Think it’s a question of getting our back row balance right to get a bit more carrying options on the pitch. Henderson/VDF/Stander or Stander/VDF/Conan might be worth a run out in one of the Wales games. Would like to see our forwards passing between themselves a little more and less one out runners. The likes of Furlong at first receiver popping inside or outside to the likes of Healy/Ryan/VDF at pace. Think Leavy’s try vs Saracens last year. Just a little bit more variation to get over the gain line. Once you make than initial break, some quick ball and then you’ll start to see the likes of Stander making yards again against a retreating defence.

Stander has done nothing to warrant continued selection, he looks great running over players in the Pro14, but it's completely nullified at this level. He has no ability to play with ball in hand, finds the closest defender and falls into him.

Backrow should be Ruddock Vdf Conan, with one of Murphy or TOD on the bench. Have Henderson has a sub lock behind Toner and Ryan. I'd be willing to give Best some more time, as he can be one of our best forwards on the deck.

lawrencesummers

molloyjh wrote: »

When? They've been way off the pace since February.

We are more than capable of matching Scotland & Japan in the group stages, but I’ve seen nothing from Byrne or Carthy to have confidence that can start or finish those games to a successful conclusion.

A game against SA or NZ is another ask for our pack, but that’s if we get there not when if we don’t have sexton on form.

clsmooth

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Stander has done nothing to warrant continued selection, he looks great running over players in the Pro14, but it's completely nullified at this level. He has no ability to play with ball in hand, finds the closest defender and falls into him.

Backrow should be Ruddock Vdf Conan, with one of Murphy or TOD on the bench. Have Henderson has a sub lock behind Toner and Ryan. I'd be willing to give Best some more time, as he can be one of our best forwards on the deck.

POM and Stander have been pretty average over the last 8 months but to have TOD (who hasn’t played in the last 8 months) and Murphy (who isn’t even a particularly good carrier at Pro14 level) on the bench ahead of two Lions tourists seems a touch harsh Ruddock is a good shout, very good club player but don’t think he has the dynamism required unfortunately to be top class. And I say that as a fan of his.

Some Yoke

In the forwards the below incumbents are losing ground fast to their understudies and haven't improved on the wales shambles today, so now should have to be made fight for their place
Best v Scannell
Pom v Ruddock
Stander v Conan
The backs,
Murray and Sexton need a game together to assess where they are
I like the settled combination of marmion and carty coming off the bench to mix things up
Stockdale too needs another chance with the heights he can reach, but I wonder could larmour challenge him for a wing berth once earls is ready to play. I admire conways workrate and tenacity but maybe Addison wins the bench spot for covering centre also
The centres battle has been covered with four quality players, henshaws chance to show what he can offer next.
Fullback, I'd persist with Kearney for another game and reassess. Such a shame we don't have Jared Payne

Not sure if Best should be our captain if he isn't a guaranteed starter.

AbusesToilets

clsmooth wrote: »

POM and Stander have been pretty average over the last 8 months but to have TOD (who hasn’t played in the last 8 months) and Murphy (who isn’t even a particularly good carrier at Pro14 level) on the bench ahead of two Lions tourists seems a touch harsh Ruddock is a good shout, very good club player but don’t think he has the dynamism required unfortunately to be top class. And I say that as a fan of his.

Accurate assessment there, given their contributions. Murphy is a quality player, and can play across the backrow. TOD is also decent and has some good dynamism to his carrying. I'd take both of them at the minute as a sub over POM and Stander.

Burkie1203

clsmooth wrote: »

POM and Stander have been pretty average over the last 8 months but to have TOD (who hasn’t played in the last 8 months) and Murphy (who isn’t even a particularly good carrier at Pro14 level) on the bench ahead of two Lions tourists seems a touch harsh Ruddock is a good shout, very good club player but don’t think he has the dynamism required unfortunately to be top class. And I say that as a fan of his.

Maybe it needs dropping high profile players to get a reaction.

POM and Stander were lions tourists 2 years ago. When they were playing well.

Right now they are 2 players, there are others, but in backrow terms they are 2 players who are performing very poorly and contributing very little.

POM is a very poor carrier. His tackle stats are generally poor.

Stander is either not carrying much, or is very one dimensional and is very easily negated.

We are trying the same guff over and over again and as the lineout falls apart we have nothing but a shambles. If POM can't contribute outside of the lineout then he has no place in the team IMO.

Stander was anonymous today. He was poor in his few 6n appearances this year.

Our plan isn't working and won't work with these players currently. So change it up. Get drastic. Gatland DROPPED both BOD and POM on each of the last 2 lions tours. He didn't give 2 ****s about name or reputation. I get the feeling Joe doesn't have that streak in him.

If we have any ambitions for a SF then we require some personnel changes because sticking with the tried and trusted up front regardless is going to mean either an embarrassing Pool exit or a QF humping

Some Yoke

thebaz wrote: »

well i think Joe in his early days would have been more imaginative and made something happen , everthing has got stale the past 6 months.

Jared Payne was the man to dethrone Kearney, his early retirement is such a shame

Portsalon

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Maybe it needs dropping high profile players to get a reaction.

POM and Stander were lions tourists 2 years ago. When they were playing well.

Right now they are 2 players, there are others, but in backrow terms they are 2 players who are performing very poorly and contributing very little.

POM is a very poor carrier. His tackle stats are generally poor.

Stander is either not carrying much, or is very one dimensional and is very easily negated.

We are trying the same guff over and over again and as the lineout falls apart we have nothing but a shambles. If POM can't contribute outside of the lineout then he has no place in the team IMO.

Stander was anonymous today. He was poor in his few 6n appearances this year.

Our plan isn't working and won't work with these players currently. So change it up. Get drastic. Gatland DROPPED both BOD and POM on each of the last 2 lions tours. He didn't give 2 ****s about name or reputation. I get the feeling Joe doesn't have that streak in him.

If we have any ambitions for a SF then we require some personnel changes because sticking with the tried and trusted up front regardless is going to mean either an embarrassing Pool exit or a QF humping

I assume that both Stander and POM have central contracts? If so, that might help to explain why Joe is sticking with them.

clsmooth

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Accurate assessment there, given their contributions. Murphy is a quality player, and can play across the backrow. TOD is also decent and has some good dynamism to his carrying. I'd take both of them at the minute as a sub over POM and Stander.

One of them did enough to captain the test team in the first test so not sure what you’re getting at there. Murphy is a decent player but underpowered as an 8. His main selling point is that he can cover all 3 back row positions to a decent degree. He got a start vs Italy in the 6n and was poor. TOD is another decent player but he hasn’t played much this year so you’re just assuming he’ll offer more than POM and Stander who have historically out performed him.

Shefwedfan

clsmooth wrote: »

POM and Stander have been pretty average over the last 8 months but to have TOD (who hasn’t played in the last 8 months) and Murphy (who isn’t even a particularly good carrier at Pro14 level) on the bench ahead of two Lions tourists seems a touch harsh Ruddock is a good shout, very good club player but don’t think he has the dynamism required unfortunately to be top class. And I say that as a fan of his.

Are we not getting a bit sick of the Lions tour bit, it was two years ago and completely irrelevant

I don’t see people pushing McGrath into the team because he was part of the Lions tour. A player who was part of all 3 games....

So if McGrath can get kicked to touch why do we need to keep going on and on about the Lions tour for other players?

molloyjh

Yeah the Lions tour is completely irrelevant.

AbusesToilets

clsmooth wrote: »

One of them did enough to captain the test team in the first test so not sure what you’re getting at there. Murphy is a decent player but underpowered as an 8. His main selling point is that he can cover all 3 back row positions to a decent degree. He got a start vs Italy in the 6n and was poor. TOD is another decent player but he hasn’t played much this year so you’re just assuming he’ll offer more than POM and Stander who have historically out performed him.

Who got unceremoniously dropped and didn't feature again, hardly something to crow about tbh. Murphy is a very good player. I'd have him as the 2nd best 8 available at the minute, and very capable of playing 7. He's the perfect bench option imo, and wouldn't be out of place starting.

Downlinz

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The main thing I want to see from the Wales game is Johnny Sexton playing, and playing something close to good because if he doesn’t it leaves one game for him to find form before he has to play well.

Based on what Joe said in the post game press conference it sounds like Sexton will only appear in the final Welsh game as he started his pre-season later than other players.

Shefwedfan

Portsalon wrote: »

I assume that both Stander and POM have central contracts? If so, that might help to explain why Joe is sticking with them.

That has nothing to do with it....

clsmooth

If the solution is Murphy and TOD, I think it’s fair to say we’re in deep sh1te. Leavy has been a huge loss. A fully fit and in form SOB just as much. But let’s remember that any player will look poor in a team which isn’t doing it. Even James Ryan looked human against England and Saracens this year. I don’t think the solution is getting rid of both POM and Stander completely. Although I think at least one should be dropped to the bench. It wasn’t that long ago that people wanted Heaslip dropped. What you’d give to have someone like him in the mix.

Shefwedfan

clsmooth wrote: »

If the solution is Murphy and TOD, I think it’s fair to say we’re in deep sh1te. Leavy has been a huge loss. A fully fit and in form SOB just as much. But let’s remember that any player will look poor in a team which isn’t doing it. Even James Ryan looked human against England and Saracens this year. I don’t think the solution is getting rid of both POM and Stander completely. Although I think at least one should be dropped to the bench. It wasn’t that long ago that people wanted Heaslip dropped. What you’d give to have someone like him in the mix.

Idiots wanted Heaslip dropped.....that’s the polite term I would use for them

Murphy is a very good player, he was immense last season in the games to win the double for
Leinster....

clsmooth

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Are we not getting a bit sick of the Lions tour bit, it was two years ago and completely irrelevant

I don’t see people pushing McGrath into the team because he was part of the Lions tour. A player who was part of all 3 games....

So if McGrath can get kicked to touch why do we need to keep going on and on about the Lions tour for other players?

True, McGrath is a strange case. He should have started ahead of Healy vs Argentina in 2015. Wasn’t far off starting the a test for the Lions. Itoje strolling past him for his try was the death-knoll for his World Cup hopes.

Shefwedfan

clsmooth wrote: »

True, McGrath is a strange case. He should have started ahead of Healy vs Argentina in 2015. Wasn’t far off starting the a test for the Lions. Itoje strolling past him for his try was the death-knoll for his World Cup hopes.

Not strange

Other players have stepped up game and are better

Same can be said about POM, I’m not so hard on standar because I think he should be at 6.....Pulling a few faces at the opposition is all POM is doing at the moment, apart from that very little in game

clsmooth

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Idiots wanted Heaslip dropped.....that’s the polite term I would use for them

Murphy is a very good player, he was immense last season in the games to win the double for
Leinster....

So 2017’s form isn’t relevant. But 2018’s is. Using that argument POM was immense when Ireland beat NZ 10 months ago as was Stander. Murphy hasn't been that impressive over the past year. Yes he had a great game against England in the 2015 6N and scored a try vs NZ in 2016 but what has he done since apart from 3 months of great form for Leinster last year? He looked lightweight in Rome in the 6N. There’s a reason why he left Leinster. And there’s a reason why Leinster kept picking the likes of VDF, Leavy and Ruddock ahead of him. Since then, Conan has kicked on too.

Former Former

clsmooth wrote: »

True, McGrath is a strange case. He should have started ahead of Healy vs Argentina in 2015. Wasn’t far off starting the a test for the Lions. Itoje strolling past him for his try was the death-knoll for his World Cup hopes.

Honestly, I think Furlong was more to blame. McGrath was fanning out which was the right thing to do given how often we'd been caught wide. Furlong was the pillar and was in position to make the tackle but didn't.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1165286921104502784

Could blame either of them I suppose.

Shefwedfan

clsmooth wrote: »

So 2017’s form isn’t relevant. But 2018’s is. Using that argument POM was immense when Ireland beat NZ 10 months ago as was Stander. Murphy hasn't been that impressive over the past year. Yes he had a great game against England in the 2015 6N and scored a try vs NZ in 2016 but what has he done since apart from 3 months of great form for Leinster last year? He looked lightweight in Rome in the 6N. There’s a reason why he left Leinster. And there’s a reason why Leinster kept picking the likes of VDF, Leavy and Ruddock ahead of him. Since then, Conan has kicked on too.

Murphy left Leinster when Heaslip hadn’t retired, Leinster wanted to keep himbut he wanted to go because Heaslip would play all the big games. He signed and then Heaslip had to retire. Bad timing or he still would be with Leinster

Have you watched Murphy for Ulster in HC? He was great in all the match’s this season.

POM has done very little to nothing since NZ,

I never said to start Murphy, I would have him on bench, standar VDF and Conan, said it at end of last season and I still think the same

I hoped the back row done well today but had an idea they would be s**t.....

eclipsechaser

Neil3030 wrote: »

Selected tweets from you-know-who(wan):


The man enjoys seeing Ireland lose so much, I'm convinced it's a sex thing.

Maybe we could hook him up with Gemma O'Doherty. Might do them both good.

clsmooth

Former Former wrote: »

Honestly, I think Furlong was more to blame. McGrath was fanning out which was the right thing to do given how often we'd been caught wide. Furlong was the pillar and was in position to make the tackle but didn't.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1165286921104502784

Could blame either of them I suppose.

Fair to say neither of them covered themselves with glory there. Still feel McGrath needed to be more aware. Nice line by Itoje all the same.

Downlinz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Idiots wanted Heaslip dropped.....that’s the polite term I would use for them

Murphy is a very good player, he was immense last season in the games to win the double for
Leinster....

When Heaslip went down before that England game and POM came in for a game winning performance it started an incredible run of form where we won 11 of the next 12 games including a grand slam and a series in Australia mainly with that POM / SOB / Stander backrow. It was unstoppable and the best backrow combination we've ever had.
The current issue is from the loss of SOB and his incredible physicality, VDF or Murphy simply don't compare. Heaslip is the last player we'd need back in the mix right now.

thebaz

Next week - a back row of

van dF Conan and Ruddock

and bring in Tonner and Ryan

Will Henshaw and Earls be fit ?

AbusesToilets

Downlinz wrote: »

When Heaslip went down before that England game and POM came in for a game winning performance it started an incredible run of form where we won 11 of the next 12 games including a grand slam and a series in Australia mainly with that POM / SOB / Stander backrow. It was unstoppable and the best backrow combination we've ever had.
The current issue is from the loss of SOB and his incredible physicality, VDF or Murphy simply don't compare. Heaslip is the last player we'd need back in the mix right now.

So many incorrect statements in one post

The really worrying thing about Best's performance, is that it says an awful lot about Joe's opinion of the alternatives. It's by far our weakest position. You almost have to drop Best after a game like that, but I still think Joe might have weighed his options and will gamble with the fitness of a 37 year old hooker.

alwald

Looking overall at the players and their form in the last 12 months when wearing the Irish jersey it's safe to say that Best, POM, Stander and Murray haven't performed well and thus they should be dropped from the starting 15.

We need a pack that can carry and make yards so I will go with Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Ryan, Toner, Henderson, VDF and Conan.
The backs I will be looking at Marmion, Sexton, Stockdale, Ringrose, Aki/Farrell, Earls and Rob.

Scotland are well capable of beating us and Japan are playing at home so it's gonna be tricky beating them...If we play like today we won't make it to the quarters.

Downlinz

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So many incorrect statements in one post

Clearly! Thanks for listing and challenging them all. :rolleyes:

As much as it may pain you, the reality was we achieved immediate success post-Heaslip with the most successful period in our history. He wasn't missed.

Faugheen

Downlinz wrote: »

When Heaslip went down before that England game and POM came in for a game winning performance it started an incredible run of form where we won 11 of the next 12 games including a grand slam and a series in Australia mainly with that POM / SOB / Stander backrow. It was unstoppable and the best backrow combination we've ever had.
The current issue is from the loss of SOB and his incredible physicality, VDF or Murphy simply don't compare. Heaslip is the last player we'd need back in the mix right now.

So this is all Van Der Flier/Murphy’s fault?

Genuinely heard it all now. SOB didn’t play most of 2018 either.

Deflection and nonsense.

durthacht

Downlinz wrote: »

Clearly! Thanks for listing and challenging them all. :rolleyes:

As much as it may pain you, the reality was we achieved immediate success post-Heaslip with the most successful period in our history. He wasn't missed.

Also, we achieved that immediate success post-O'Driscoll, post-O'Connell and post-O'Gara. These feckers really were holding us back for all those years.

Tikki Wang Wang

Some Yoke wrote: »

Jared Payne was the man to dethrone Kearney, his early retirement is such a shame

Ffs he’s the same age !

Abel Ruiz

Some Yoke wrote: »

Jared Payne was the man to dethrone Kearney, his early retirement is such a shame

I thought he mainly played centre for ireland.


Also why is Sean obrien getting so much praise today? He was awful in March

riddles

Ireland’s performance beating the All Blacks and the grand slam was the pinnacle for that group. To stay at that level tactics needed to evolve and I don’t think they have, which is part of the problem. I think even with his best 15 firing teams know what Ireland are going to do. Yesterday it looked like there was no plan in fairness.

It could be the training camp they completed meaning they were fatigued. Anyway a lot of the group have a lot of miles on the clock. Still given what Joe and that group have delivered its hard to be critical let’s just hope there’s another shrewd plan in the offing for the WC

schmoo2k

Burkie1203 wrote: »

...Gatland DROPPED both BOD and POM on each of the last 2 lions tours. He didn't give 2 ****s about name or reputation. I get the feeling Joe doesn't have that streak in him...

...this sums up at least part of the issue!

Tikki Wang Wang

riddles wrote: »

Ireland’s performance beating the All Blacks and the grand slam was the pinnacle for that group. To stay at that level tactics needed to evolve and I don’t think they have, which is part of the problem. I think even with his best 15 firing teams know what Ireland are going to do. Yesterday it looked like there was no plan in fairness.

It could be the training camp they completed meaning they were fatigued. Anyway a lot of the group have a lot of miles on the clock. Still given what Joe and that group have delivered its hard to be critical let’s just hope there’s another shrewd plan in the offing for the WC

Joe looks like little boy lost at this stage. I’d say he’s kicking himself he didn’t take the All Black jobs in 2018. He’ll never get a shot at it now. Silly Billy.

schmoo2k

riddles wrote: »

...let’s just hope there’s another shrewd plan in the offing for the WC

You can have all the shrewd plans you want in attack - but it was our defense that was shown up yesterday...

schmoo2k

schmoo2k wrote: »

You can have all the shrewd plans you want in attack - but it was our defense that was shown up yesterday...

We'd nothing in attack either.

Burkie1203

schmoo2k wrote: »

You can have all the shrewd plans you want in attack - but it was our defense that was shown up yesterday...

Our primary ball carrier was MIA
Lineout was a shambles
One of our 2nd rows was out of his depth

No platform means no attack.

Shefwedfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Our primary ball carrier was MIA
Lineout was a shambles
One of our 2nd rows was out of his depth

No platform means no attack.

Defence was s**t....a number of times player shooting out of line and hitting nothing...was that a tactic? If so stupid

Stockdale has horror show at times, standar got ran over by tulagi....

No idea what defence they played but it was awful...that’s on Farrell so he needs to buck up ideas

lawrencesummers

Some laugh around these parts. People want CJ and POM dropped for poor performances, and I can see that.

Other people want Kearney and Murray dropped because he has serious holes in his game, but that viewpoint is being slated.

The problem is joes ultra conservative policy of selecting the same players all the time irrelevant of dips in form. It’s a team that is impossible to get into and harder to get out of.

Murray and Kearney have started ever game against Italy in the 6 nations. A horrendous stat when you want to talk about experimenting and giving players opportunities.

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Some laugh around these parts. People want CJ and POM dropped for poor performances, and I can see that.

Other people want Kearney and Murray dropped because he has serious holes in his game, but that viewpoint is being slated.

The problem is joes ultra conservative policy of selecting the same players all the time irrelevant of dips in form. It’s a team that is impossible to get into and harder to get out of.

Murray and Kearney have started ever game against Italy in the 6 nations. A horrendous stat when you want to talk about experimenting and giving players opportunities.

Laugh here is your post....the conservative Joe was found out years ago to be bulls**t and still is, he has capped and produced a better squad than Ireland ever has

We have options now, previous once you went past the initial 15 or 23 then we had no options

Also it’s preseason, your complaining about joe keeping players in position after they have played 2 games this season with two completely different starting line ups?

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We have options now

Do you think we'll use any of them?

Shefwedfan

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

Do you think we'll use any of them?

After two games with two different team it would suggest we will

Remember the Italy game wasn’t brill either...Carberry was good...Carty was s**t....so Byrne got a chance....if you look over the two games we have had a look at majority of squad

Then you have people posting about not changing the team, how many other players did people want to see?

John from canteen on the wing?

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

After two games with two different team it would suggest we will

I admire your faith but imo bar the injuries (Sexton, Ryan, Earls) that's the team that'll start in a QF against NZ or SA.

Assuming we get there.