Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

molloyjh

Is there any chance people could talk about this without treating each other like crap? I'm assuming most, if not all, of us are adults. Let's work a little harder to act like it?

Wegians89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All players are up for review, just because one comes from Connacht doesn't mean he should be left off

So far Carty has played both match's and done nothing. In the 6 natiosn he done nothing.



How many chances does he need to get? we have 2 warm up games left and then squad needs to be picked. At this stage should we plough another game into Carty? or are we better giving those minutes to Byrne?



Of course its Joe decision, personally I would plough the minutes into Byrne. Carty got his chance, fluffed it.

People are on here complaining Joe is too conservative and the next post they want XYZ from their own provinces kept in the team when that person is not performing. Which is it?

I’m not saying carty should play because he’s from Connacht. ( I’d selfishly prefer he didn’t go to Japan so Connacht could have him and have a chance to do something in the pro14 next year)

I’m just saying you have to compare Byrne and carty fairly. They’ve both done relatively nothing for Ireland so how can you push Byrne ? Carty deserves a chance to start a game with a full team, before judging him properly, as in a perfect world any player would.

Italy - 3 min did nothing
France - 23 min did nothing
Italy - 31 min did nothing
Wales - 8 min , set up a try but nothing really
England - 27 min did nothing

Total time - 92 min
Against Italy and France in the six nations games were already won and the team were in cruise control. Against wales and England, team were well beaten. It’s hard to come on and make a difference in games that are already over.

Byrne
Italy - 20 min did nothing
USA - 54 min did nothing
England - 53 min did nothing (only match started by either )

Total time - 127 min
Italy and USA were two games Ireland had won before going into the pitch. Hard to tell what level he’s at. Started against England looked bright enough for first 10/15 minutes. A lot of responsibility lie with the ten. Game over by half time

thebaz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Then look at the 2015 squad and look at the potential 2019 squad and please tell me which is stronger squad.

Right now , the 2015 squad looks light years ahead , so many players and our coach have gone backwards in 6 months - Larmour, POM , CJ , Sexton, Murray , Stickdale ,Best , Ringrose - you seam to think yesterday was a once of blimp, this loss of form has been goinng on for 6 months - and yesterday post match confernce Joe looked as baffled me -

Even if everthing was going well , beating SA or NZ in a WC quarter was going to be a big ask , right now getting out of our group undefeated will be tough

Shefwedfan

Wegians89 wrote: »

Best(age) should have been replaced but he’s captain so Schmidt needed balls there.
Stander has been poor but not terrible but easily replaced if needed (Conan/ruddock)
Croinin not good enough to start, never had been looks worse because of the team failing
Murray and Sexton are injured and over relied on. Not there fault really marmion and carbery really should have been pushed more in 6 nations.
Pom is the big one for me, he just doesn’t cut it at the minute the game has gone beyond him. Passion alone isn’t enough anymore, need a more physical presence or someone who’s involved in the full 80 minutes not just 2/3 big moments over the 80

Best had a good season and a decent 6 nations....so calls for him to be dumped after 1 preseason game is a bit early


Scannell needs to step up, at this stage Cronin is so nervous he is no good....

The play Murray back into form isnt working so he needs to go for Marmion


Sexton is not injured, he was rested


EJ said it after the game on BBC....yes I watched the highlights again after watching on Sky.....he said the game is going towards big strong players and it suits england....POM is not that and we need to swap Standar to 6

Clegg

Fwiw I don't think Larmour or Ringrose have gone backwards. Nor Stockdale for that matter. They all made bad defensive reads yesterday, but that's more down to our forwards losing the gain line constantly and us being constantly in retreat. And that's been the problem all year imo. We've no platform because the forwards aren't matching up. The first 20 minutes, when we actually got attacking ball, showed that we have the backs to threaten the opposition.

I'm very worried with what happened to our defence though. You can't always stop the opposition on the gainline so you will be in retreat sometimes. But you also have strategies to cope with that. The sheer amount of misreads and missed tackles suggests to me that something went very wrong systematically.

Clegg

Btw has anyone read the Sunday Times? They say Sexton picked up another knock in training and won't play against Wales next weekend. We're running out of games to get him warmed up.

Portsalon

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton is not injured, he was rested

Don't think so. Reported that he "took a knock" at training camp last week and is recovering.

Joe's camp was closed to outsiders last week, so we're living off scraps.

Shefwedfan

thebaz wrote: »

Right now , the 2015 squad looks light years ahead , so many players and our coach have gone backwards in 6 months - Larmour, POM , CJ , Sexton, Murray , Stickdale ,Best , Ringrose - you seam to think yesterday was a once of blimp, this loss of form has been goinng on for 6 months - and yesterday post match confernce Joe looked as baffled me -

Even if everthing was going well , beating SA or NZ in a WC quarter was going to be a big ask , right now getting out of our group undefeated will be tough

Out of all the players you listed I could only say POM has gone backwards in 6 months....


Murray fell off after the Australia tour and has never come back at all. He is playing the exact same way he played last season, poorly


CJ is playing well but he is not an 8 at international level, he needs to go back to 6 and see how he goes. He played great for Ireland at 6


Stockdale/Ringrose/Best/Larmour have played 1 preseason game so hard to make a call. They where playing well at end of season


Sexton hasn't even touched a ball so no idea hwo you are making that call? Sexton was playing well for Leinster before break

is_that_so

Clegg wrote: »

Btw has anyone read the Sunday Times? They say Sexton picked up another knock in training and won't play against Wales next weekend. We're running out of games to get him warmed up.

Think that has been mentioned elsewhere, hence the urgency to give the 3&4 options game time.

Shefwedfan

Portsalon wrote: »

Don't think so. Reported that he "took a knock" at training camp last week and is recovering.

Joe's camp was closed to outsiders last week, so we're living off scraps.

Well the option is to go into a conference to name a team and spent 30 min talking about why Sexton isn't playing or just say he has a knock....


Nothing from any of the Irish support staff would inidicate is has an injury.



But the press would be like a dog if he is fit and not playing...

thebaz

Clegg wrote: »

Fwiw I don't think Larmour or Ringrose have gone backwards. Nor Stockdale for that matter.

Well none have improved since the start of the year , and I would say each have gone backward , and the question is why have so many players form dipped , that is on the coach I would think - I was a fan of most of these players , including Joe , but burying the head and saying nothing is wrong solves nothing, even the Irish camp are suggesting something is wrong.

Wegians89

Clegg wrote: »

Btw has anyone read the Sunday Times? They say Sexton picked up another knock in training and won't play against Wales next weekend. We're running out of games to get him warmed up.

With carbery down and looking less likely to travel, I’d say Cary will start one of the two matches with bryne the bench. Sexton start the last match then

Shefwedfan

Clegg wrote: »

I'm very worried with what happened to our defence though. You can't always stop the opposition on the gainline so you will be in retreat sometimes. But you also have strategies to cope with that. The sheer amount of misreads and missed tackles suggests to me that something went very wrong systematically.

They seemed to have a tactic of shooting out of the line. Stockdale done it a few times and Larmour then did it as well


I was sitting with a group of friends and I noticed, didnt say anythign and then at half time everyone mentioned it.....


I seen us doing that before on tour in Australia, Henshaw when we lost I think


Along with the cross field exit. It looks like they are trying new things, nothing seems to be working.....


Maybe shooting up against a Japan might work with Larmour, but the player he is going up against with England he is never going to take ball and player

Clegg

Jack McGrath's form has fallen off a cliff. He hasn't been great since 2017. Everything is just off with him. He was never an explosive player in the mould of Healy or Kilcoyne, but he was just so solid in everything he did. High workrate, good rucker decent carrier and solid set piece. But now everything about his game has dipped by at least 2 levels.

He shouldn't travel to Japan.

thebaz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Out of all the players you listed I could only say POM has gone backwards in 6 months....


Murray fell off after the Australia tour and has never come back at all. He is playing the exact same way he played last season, poorly


CJ is playing well but he is not an 8 at international level, he needs to go back to 6 and see how he goes. He played great for Ireland at 6


Stockdale/Ringrose/Best/Larmour have played 1 preseason game so hard to make a call. They where playing well at end of season


Sexton hasn't even touched a ball so no idea hwo you are making that call? Sexton was playing well for Leinster before break

nonsense , nothing is wrong so - all is fine and we will win the World cup

Shefwedfan

thebaz wrote: »

Well none have improved since the start of the year , and I would say each have gone backward , and the question is why have so many players form dipped , that is on the coach I would think - I was a fan of most of these players , including Joe , but burying the head and saying nothing is wrong solves nothing, even the Irish camp are suggesting something is wrong.

Did you see Joe interview?



Didn't look like a man burying his head.....


I know my mate was in Cardiff after the Wales game. Farrel was in restaurant the next moring with some of the coachs(no Joe). Now he couldn't hear anything but the riot act was been read to them. It looked like what Farrell/Joe wanted to happen didn't happen....I expect something similar today

This was not in front of player etc

Tikki Wang Wang

Wegians89 wrote: »

With carbery down and looking less likely to travel, I’d say Cary will start one of the two matches with bryne the bench. Sexton start the last match then

Carbery is looking more likely to travel even if he misses Scotland game as Byrne has played himself off the plane.

thebaz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did you see Joe interview?



Didn't look like a man burying his head.....

thats was my point - that you and a few others are suggesting nothing is wrong , when even the Irish camp are hinting that something is up

Portsalon

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well the option is to go into a conference to name a team and spent 30 min talking about why Sexton isn't playing or just say he has a knock....

Nothing from any of the Irish support staff would inidicate is has an injury.

But the press would be like a dog if he is fit and not playing...

Translation: "I haven't a clue as to whether or not he's injured, but I felt a strong urge to write something nonsensical anyway." :rolleyes:

Clegg

I know Schmidt likes a big lock to hit rucks and make big tackles. But Kleyn really is a nothing player at the higher levels. Doesn't do anything but the physical stuff. That's not enough for most test level second rows anymore. Maybe if you were an ultra dominant beast, but he isn't that either.

Shefwedfan

thebaz wrote: »

thats was my point - that you and a few others are suggesting nothing is wrong , when even the Irish camp are hinting that something is up

I never said nothing was wrong


I am the one who has been calling for change since the 6 nations while everyone else is talking about POM playing for the Lions 2 years ago


What I am saying is people throwin toys out of pram and over reacting is pointless.



People saying we have no strength in the squad which is incorrect. Saying we haven't tried player when in fact Joe has capped nearly every decent player in Ireland. Everyone has given a chance.



Some of those players just havent stood up to international level



Losing your marbles after 2 preseason games is pointless.

Clareman

I'm not sure why everyone is saying Murray had a bad game, he got hit in the head after about 20 minutes and shouldn't have come back on.

The biggest worry for me from yesterday is our defense and line out, both were brutal. Defense might be able to be put down to heavy legs after a week of heavy training in Portugal but the line out was malfunctioning all over the place. The thrower can get a lot of flack and a few of the lost lineouts were down to throws but why did we keep throwing to the back when we were being destroyed? Players were late getting up and the calls were silly in a lot of cases.

thebaz

Clegg wrote: »

I know Schmidt likes a big lock to hit rucks and make big tackles. But Kleyn really is a nothing player at the higher levels. Doesn't do anything but the physical stuff. That's not enough for most test level second rows. Maybe if you were an ultra dominant beast, but he isn't that either.

you could also ask , why was he brought in at such a late stage , and Dillane dumped when he seamed to be going well - Joes selections have seamed odd this year

Clegg

In an attempt to find any positives from that game it really does look like we're implementing a new attacking strategy in the backs. We used Kearney as a second receiver a number of times and we got outside England's defence successfully.

Portsalon

Clegg wrote: »

I know Schmidt likes a big lock to hit rucks and make big tackles. But Kleyn really is a nothing player at the higher levels. Doesn't do anything but the physical stuff. That's not enough for most test level second rows. Maybe if you were an ultra dominant beast, but he isn't that either.

There appears to be a perception that every top international team needs an enforcer, normally a hulking, hard second rower. Neither Devin nor James Ryan can do it, Stander is hard, but fair, and POM has lost his edge - apart from the gurning - so Joe seems to be looking for someone like Klein to take on the likes of Etzebet or Retallick (if fit) in the knock out stages.

Wegians89

Tikki Wang Wang wrote: »

Carbery is looking more likely to travel even if he misses Scotland game as Byrne has played himself off the plane.

Did Schmidt not say something about carbery having to be fit for one of the wales games to travel?

thebaz

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I never said nothing was wrong




Losing your marbles after 2 preseason games is pointless.

well anything I have read here from you , seams to suggest you think nothing is wrong - like your last point (forgetting the 6 Nations form too)

Clegg

I've just seen a clip of Kearney clotheslining Tom Curry yesterday. One armed high hit around the neck with no attempt to wrap.

We'll be extremely fortunate if he doesn't get cited. Was red card worthy but completely missed by the referees and TMO.

Wegians89

thebaz wrote: »

you could also ask , why was he brought in at such a late stage , and Dillane dumped when he seamed to be going well - Joes selections have seamed odd this year

Thought dillane had played well in the six nations. He’s a good option in the line out with how light he is. He shot up and stole a few opposition ball a few times.

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

I've just seen a clip of Kearney clotheslining Tom Curry yesterday. One armed high hit around the neck with no attempt to wrap.

We'll be extremely fortunate if he doesn't get cited. Was red card worthy but completely missed by the referees and TMO.

Link?

D14Rugby

Jesus some people really need to calm down. First game since May for half these lads and its against a team that have mostly played one and a half games each and are physical players anyway. We lost that game for 3 main reasons, ****e set piece, missed tackles, not match fit, every single one of those are very fixable with more games. It was a warm-up game, who cares, its about getting minutes under the belt without giving away any game plans that's all.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Losing your marbles after 2 preseason games is pointless.

I have already pointed out to you that it's more than 2 preseason games - we got walloped by Wales and England in the 6N. They both hammered us, we had no chance of winning either match.

Clegg

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

Link?

https://twitter.com/Teddybreath/status/1165510604620279808?s=19

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Teddybreath/status/1165510604620279808?s=19

Yeah, see you later Rob.

lawrencesummers

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

I have already pointed out to you that it's more than 2 preseason games - we got walloped by Wales and England in the 6N. They both hammered us, we had no chance of winning either match.

You can’t be pointing things out to that lad, he hasn’t the capacity for facts let alone anyone else’s viewpoint

Might be a citing. I'd say it's closer to Yellow territory

lawrencesummers

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

Yeah, see you later Rob.

That’s probably his best effort at a tackle for a long time. He got made a complete fool of twice by Daly or May early in the game.

Jump_In_Jack

This would be my team for next match:
Kilcoyne, Cronin, John Ryan, James Ryan, Toner, Beirne, Murphy, Conan, Marmion, Carty, D. Kearney, Henshaw, Addison, Earls, Conway.
Subs: Scannell, Jack McGrath, Porter, Henderson, O’Donnell, Luke McGrath, Byrne, Farrell.

Decisions to be made for the final squad:
(Most likely from left to right)
McGrath/Kilcoyne
2 from Cronin/Scannell/Herring
Beirne/Kleyn
1 of Murphy/O’Donnell/Ruddock
Marmion/McGrath
Carty/Byrne
Farrell/Addison
2 from Larmour/Conway/D. Kearney

The above is assuming we take 3 Hookers, 5 props, 4 locks, 5 back-rows, 2 scrum-halves, 3 out-halves, 4 centres, 5 back-threes.

Portsalon

Clegg wrote: »

I've just seen a clip of Kearney clotheslining Tom Curry yesterday. One armed high hit around the neck with no attempt to wrap.

We'll be extremely fortunate if he doesn't get cited. Was red card worthy but completely missed by the referees and TMO.

Slightly late as well, as Curry had already released the try-scoring pass.

Aki had a few marginally late hits as well, one on Ford stands out, but that was because the English backs' handling was so crisp.

LuckyLloyd

D14Rugby wrote: »

Jesus some people really need to calm down. First game since May for half these lads and its against a team that have mostly played one and a half games each and are physical players anyway. We lost that game for 3 main reasons, ****e set piece, missed tackles, not match fit, every single one of those are very fixable with more games. It was a warm-up game, who cares, its about getting minutes under the belt without giving away any game plans that's all.

57 - 15, a mid nineties score. No - one is overreacting to suggest things are looking grim.

D14Rugby

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

57 - 15, a mid nineties score. No - one is overreacting to suggest things are looking grim.

Grim is a seriously gross overstatement of it. These are warmup games, the results mean nothing, look at the Scottish and French results the last two games, these results have no importance. We played a team that are much further along in their preparation in match fitness terms and lost well to them, in other news water is wet.

The Lost Sheep

D14Rugby wrote: »

Grim is a seriously gross overstatement of it. These are warmup games, the results mean nothing, look at the Scottish and French results the last two games, these results have no importance. We played a team that are much further along in their preparation in match fitness terms and lost well to them, in other news water is wet.

Our performances have been poor, very poor. The results dont mean anything but performances very much do and ours do not look anything like those of a side who will be playing in a semi final in 9 weeks time.

thebaz

D14Rugby wrote: »

We played a team that are much further along in their preparation in match fitness terms and lost well to them, in other news water is wet.

Water may be wet , but why then are England so further ahead of us in preparation and fitness - so close to a WC - nevermind 6 months of poor perfomances and questionable selections

LuckyLloyd

D14Rugby wrote: »

Grim is a seriously gross overstatement of it. These are warmup games, the results mean nothing, look at the Scottish and French results the last two games, these results have no importance. We played a team that are much further along in their preparation in match fitness terms and lost well to them, in other news water is wet.

Our performances all year have been rubbish, trending downwards and crucially way off our level during 2018.

It is completely reasonable to start worrying, particularly after the manner of yesterday’s hammering.

D14Rugby

thebaz wrote: »

Water may be wet , but why then are England so further ahead of us in preparation and fitness - so close to a WC - nevermind 6 months of poor perfomances and questionable selections

Because they've played the number one team in the world twice and we've played Italy. The English coaches have also taken a gamble in cutting their squad so early which means they're further ahead in match fitness but injury call-ups won't be as smooth as they could be.

thebaz

D14Rugby wrote: »

Because they've played the number one team in the world twice and we've played Italy. The English coaches have also taken a gamble in cutting their squad so early which means they're further ahead in match fitness but injury call-ups won't be as smooth as they could be.

I accept the first point , but not the cutting squad one - lets see what happens next week , but another worry is confidence in everything will have taken a hiding - same as 2007 when we stuttered against Georgia , never got going after with an equally talented squad.

Exclamation Marc

If we win the warm-ups emphatically, everyone would be saying they're meaningless and any comfort is I'll-placed.

If we lose warm-ups emphatically, it's the end of the world and we're suddenly tier two standard at risk of not getting out of the group.

Warm-ups are what they are, clue is in the title. The Six Nations games would worry me more than these run of games but I'm confident we'll have improved since March in meaningful games. My only real concern is the line-out and Bests unreliability in clutch scenarios.

Plus these games are the publics only insight into players abilities and again, these are NOT test match standard. If you think players are going pelt, they're not. They're all conscious of injuries or exposing game plans. It doesn't excuse the manner of the performance yesterday entirely but jesus, perspective is needed. How players are performing on the training ground is incredibly important too but we don't see that.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

Might be a citing. I'd say it's closer to Yellow territory

Yellow maybe - attempted if poor tackle. Hard to tell how his arm ended up so high. You'd need to see the original position of it before contact. One would assume the TMO had a look at that at the time. They don't miss very much these days.

D14Rugby

thebaz wrote: »

I accept the first point , but not the cutting squad one - lets see what happens next week , but another worry is confidence in everything will have taken a hiding - same as 2007 when we stuttered against Georgia , never got going after with an equally talented squad.

You dont accept that England cutting their squad early results in players being more match fit? Less players splitting the same amount of game time, its fairly straightforward.

New Zealand suffered a record defeat to Australia, you don't see them losing their ****.

LuckyLloyd

D14Rugby wrote: »

You dont accept that England cutting their squad early results in players being more match fit? Less players splitting the same amount of game time, its fairly straightforward.

New Zealand suffered a record defeat to Australia, you don't see them losing their ****.

Did you watch the NZ / Aus game you reference? Down to 14 men and behind they kept trying to play open expansive rugby and got caught out as the second half wore on. It wasn’t near the same sort of thing as yesterday.