Congress 2019

ToBeFrank123

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Donegal actually questioned this last summer as well. However, they were told the Croke Park game is set in stone, no mention of it having to be neutral.

I don't believe it would have passed through Congress either way. The reality is that most counties are so far behind Dublin they don't care either way. If Kilkenny hear that their funding is going to be cut if a Dublin football related motion passes, why would they vote it in?

So you cannot question them naming CP as a home venue. And you cannot question CP named as a neutral venue.

Laughable to say the least. How many more advantages can be given to one county?

Bonniedog

A motion could have been put to rule out Dublin having a group game in Croke Park:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1128/1013833-mcgill-croke-park-dublin-super-8s-congress/

Indeed, CP said that it was a matter that could only be changed by Congress and not by CCC.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1128/1013833-mcgill-croke-park-dublin-super-8s-congress/

Furthermore, as far back as November, they had discussions on this with Donegal so they could in fact have proposed a motion specifically at use of CP by Dublin as "neutral" venue.

Why didn't they?

What difference would it make if Dublin could then nominate CP as home venue rather than Parnell? Does anyone think they have a better chance of beating Dublin in Parnell than in Croke Park?

Only impact of a Parnell game would be 12,000 instead of maybe 50,000 if it was game against Mayo for example. Certainly more than 30,000 no matter who it was.

howiya

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Donegal actually questioned this last summer as well. However, they were told the Croke Park game is set in stone, no mention of it having to be neutral.

I don't believe it would have passed through Congress either way. The reality is that most counties are so far behind Dublin they don't care either way. If Kilkenny hear that their funding is going to be cut if a Dublin football related motion passes, why would they vote it in?

The neutral game at Croke Park is only "set in stone" because it was previously voted in by Congress. That doesn't mean that Congress can't seek to change the rule in the future or at the weekend just gone.

While I agree that a different motion wouldn't have passed in the current climate but it would have been closer had the motion actually addressed the unfairness of the current situation and then possibly built momentum and ultimately get across the line in the future if presented again at Congress.

Take your Kilkenny example. Delegates are sitting there listening to Donegal say how unfair it is that Dublin have two home games in the Super 8s. Dublin speak and confirm that they would use Parnell Park for their home game if the motion carries. The Kilkenny delegates say to themselves, hang on a minute. There'll be less money to go around and you're still going to give Dublin two games in Dublin. Why on earth would anyone vote for that?? Motion defeated.

howiya

Perifect wrote: »

Lads, this wouldn't have passed no matter what! You could have worded it any way you liked. It's all about the money. Fair play in Gaelic Games has long gone out the window.

If the motion had passed, Dublin would have still played twice in Dublin. Where is the fair play in that?

Dublin are too familiar with Croke Park. Let's make them play where they play their club football instead. You couldn't make it up.

zetecescort

Are we still having the finals in August?

Dots1982

The motion may have been rejected anyway but if the only motion brought was a stupid one it makes it easy for congress to vote it down.

grbear

Was there any motion or even discussion about possibly tightening up the rules and regulations with regards how County Boards handle money and audits?

Seems extraordinary to me that in the past few months we have seen major issues come to light in the counties with the second and third highest revenues in the Country (open to correction but I assume it's Dublin, Cork, Galway) but there's very little talk of making the rules stricter or greater scrutiny from Croke Park.

Dots1982

grbear wrote: »

Was there any motion or even discussion about possibly tightening up the rules and regulations with regards how County Boards handle money and audits?

Seems extraordinary to me that in the past few months we have seen major issues come to light in the counties with the second and third highest revenues in the Country (open to correction but I assume it's Dublin, Cork, Galway) but there's very little talk of making the rules stricter or greater scrutiny from Croke Park.

All counties don’t even release their accounts for public consumption. It’s a scandal within the GAA that doesn’t even get a smidge of coverage.

RMAOK

zetecescort wrote: »

Are we still having the finals in August?

Unfortunately yes.

dog_pig

Bonniedog wrote:

Donegal motion was badly worded as I said a good while ago.

Bonniedog wrote:

Anyway, I and others in Dublin agree with only having one CP game but Donegal motion was badly framed.

Bonniedog wrote:

Sounds like it was drafted in the pub after a few pints.

Bonniedog wrote:

Not exactly Plato and Aristotle who look after such matters in Donegal, although I suspect they had another plan which would have stopped Dublin having any games in either Croke Park OR Parnell.

"When first we practise to deceive …" and so on

Bonniedog wrote:

Looks like Donegal have better things to be worried about now than where Dublin play their matches ….

Is there something you want to tell us Bonnie?

Gael85

seligehgit wrote: »

I'd imagine a bit of both.:)


Croke Park could use the health and safety criteria in a cynical fashion to determine venues.

TBF it's a complex issue,there will still be games where demand exceeds capacity in certain home venues and there are likely to be real live health and safety issues.Yet nobody wants to give up home advantage as we learned to our cost last year.

When I first caught sight of motion 23 I thought it might try to address all the shadow boxing in naming teams pre games.

That motion re Valentina club who were promoted last year is interesting.

I believe they've only 12 or 13 adult players and are seeking under 17s to be allowed play for the senior club.A welfare issue versus the stark reality of dwindling numbers available to field teams in rural Ireland.

How did the Valentia motion go?

ToBeFrank123

Bonniedog wrote: »

Furthermore, as far back as November, they had discussions on this with Donegal so they could in fact have proposed a motion specifically at use of CP by Dublin as "neutral" venue.

Why didn't they?

Who knows? I'm guessing there is always an implicit threat from the GAA that if you take Dublin out of Croke Park for any game, it means less money going to everyone else. It becomes a case of Croker or nowhere. It just underlines how the sport is now dominated by money and greed to a large extent. And lets not forget all the expenses that go to county officials and the likes. This has to be paid somehow. Its all a catch 22. Smaller Leinster counties need Dublin to be strong to fund them. But Dublin being strong means these lesser counties haven't a hope of catching up. So the Leinster Championship continues to be a farce.

What difference would it make if Dublin could then nominate CP as home venue rather than Parnell? Does anyone think they have a better chance of beating Dublin in Parnell than in Croke Park?

Only impact of a Parnell game would be 12,000 instead of maybe 50,000 if it was game against Mayo for example. Certainly more than 30,000 no matter who it was.

Kildare clearly had a better chance of beating Mayo in Newbridge than in Croker or so they felt. Had it been played in Croke Park, Mayo could have attracted up to 20,000 from fans based in Mayo and in Dublin. And Mayo usually do well in Croker in the championship. Kildare were well within their rights and it was a home venue, so venue does count for something.

I think the main thing here is that for the neutral super 8 game, teams like Donegal have to travel a long way as do their supporters. Dublin on the otherhand have it in their backyard, and can afford to rest and prepare longer. There is a definite advantage to that.

RedDevil55

Bonniedog wrote: »

Furthermore, as far back as November, they had discussions on this with Donegal so they could in fact have proposed a motion specifically at use of CP by Dublin as "neutral" venue.

Why didn't they?

They probably thought it would be a harder motion to get through. They would have to convince people that the national stadium cannot be considered neutral for 1 team. It would make a bit of a farce of the competition if that passed in fairness. Even though they would be correct.

Bonniedog

RMAOK wrote: »

Unfortunately yes.

Really bad decision. Surrendering a whole month where GAA is the dominant sport in the media - despite RTE's obsession with the EPL soap opera - makes no sense.

The argument regarding more time for clubs was proven last year to be a red herring. Made no difference and in any event September only involved four senior counties.

Barlett

Well if this year's Super Eights are anything like last years I think we'll all be hoping for a return to the old system. Who wants to watch games in an empty Croke Park?

On the Croke Park issue, I don't see why Thurles, Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Limerick couldn't be used as a neutral venue depending on Dublin's opponents. I mean if the main argument is fans missing out, sure they could easily travel there. Keeping all the games in Croke Park is purely motivated by money and it will come at the expense of the Championship in the long term.

threeball

Barlett wrote: »

Well if this year's Super Eights are anything like last years I think we'll all be hoping for a return to the old system. Who wants to watch games in an empty Croke Park?

On the Croke Park issue, I don't see why Thurles, Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Limerick couldn't be used as a neutral venue depending on Dublin's opponents. I mean if the main argument is fans missing out, sure they could easily travel there. Keeping all the games in Croke Park is purely motivated by money and it will come at the expense of the Championship in the long term.

Hopefully we'll see another massive drop in attendances this year as the only thing that gets CP's attention is a loss of revenue. When it really starts to hit home maybe then they'll start to take notice. So hopefully everyone is so bored of the sneaky dealings and crap matches that they just don't bother their hoop and go to the beach instead.

Fann Linn

Barlett wrote: »

Well if this year's Super Eights are anything like last years I think we'll all be hoping for a return to the old system. Who wants to watch games in an empty Croke Park?

On the Croke Park issue, I don't see why Thurles, Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Limerick couldn't be used as a neutral venue depending on Dublin's opponents. I mean if the main argument is fans missing out, sure they could easily travel there. Keeping all the games in Croke Park is purely motivated by money and it will come at the expense of the Championship in the long term.

Agree fully with all of that, and you could include Portlaoise and/or Tullamore along with all of the above and let HQ decide who plays where at a designated neutral venue.
Kinda like the way the Euros are held in soccer.

castletownman

By the GAA's logic, supply and demand be damned. How many people want to go see Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea across the channel on a weekly basis during the season, yet can't as there are limited tickets available? Same goes for most stadium-based sports across the globe. Heck, I say the ratio between people who dream of going to the Masters compared to the lucky few who actually get to go is massive. The same economic system affects Broadway/West End/Electric Picnic etc.

Whatever the kerfuffle surrounding it, the Kildare-Mayo game was arguably the most atmospheric of the championship last year, and certainly trumped the cavernous environs of Croker for most of Dublin's games up to the final. Playing two games in the same venue that you know like the back of your hand in what is a knockout mini-tournament is an unfair advantage, no matter what way it is construed. It would be like allowing Liverpool play only home games in the CL knock-out stages.

This isn't an issue of wording. It's an issue of the GAA not wanting to cut off the hand that feeds it.

Dots1982

castletownman wrote: »

By the GAA's logic, supply and demand be damned. How many people want to go see Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea across the channel on a weekly basis during the season, yet can't as there are limited tickets available? Same goes for most stadium-based sports across the globe. Heck, I say the ratio between people who dream of going to the Masters compared to the lucky few who actually get to go is massive. The same economic system affects Broadway/West End/Electric Picnic etc.

Whatever the kerfuffle surrounding it, the Kildare-Mayo game was arguably the most atmospheric of the championship last year, and certainly trumped the cavernous environs of Croker for most of Dublin's games up to the final. Playing two games in the same venue that you know like the back of your hand in what is a knockout mini-tournament is an unfair advantage, no matter what way it is construed. It would be like allowing Liverpool play only home games in the CL knock-out stages.

This isn't an issue of wording. It's an issue of the GAA not wanting to cut off the hand that feeds it.

Nah, it wasn’t an issue with the wording. It was the motion would have had Dublin playing in Parnell Park in the championship. They haven’t done that since I think 2004 when they played London. You can’t play big championship games involving Dublin in Parnell. It was a daft motion.

doc_17

As as Dublin are looked after who gives a f**k about anyone else.

Dots1982

Dots1982 wrote: »

Nah, it wasn’t an issue with the wording. It was the motion would have had Dublin playing in Parnell Park in the championship. They haven’t done that since I think 2004 when they played London. You can’t play big championship games involving Dublin in Parnell. It was a daft motion.

Yes you can.

Its their own fault that they don't have a proper stadium.

Let them take some of the millions they're taking in and build one.

No incentive with the status quo anyway since they've been allowed claim HQ.

Dots1982

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Yes you can.

Its their own fault that they don't have a proper stadium.

Let them take some of the millions they're taking in and build one.

No incentive with the status quo anyway since they've been allowed claim HQ.

Grand, build a stadium, it’ll be ready in 3 years and cost about 200 million. Still not going to be ready for this year hence Parnell Park is the only option they could play at this year and that is too small and so isn’t an option.

threeball

Every team should be made declare a home stadium at the start of the year and that is where their home league games and any other home matches throughout the year. Then there will be no dispute when it comes to whats neutral and whats home. No bullsh1t motions needed at congress either.

howiya

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Yes you can.

Its their own fault that they don't have a proper stadium.

Let them take some of the millions they're taking in and build one.

No incentive with the status quo anyway since they've been allowed claim HQ.

Fast forward to when this new stadium is built, what do you propose using Croke Park for? More concerts?

The set up of the Super 8s is completely unfair and can be fixed with a simple rule change. The answer isn't another stadium in Dublin.

Bonniedog

howiya wrote: »

The set up of the Super 8s is completely unfair

Life is unfair, sport is unfair.

Same teams have been consistently excelling at hurling and/or football for 130 years, with some exceptions, and with some of the leading counties enduring periods of dominance or mediocrity. Dublin are in good period at moment but other bad periods will follow. Kilkenny and Kerry went for ten years or so without AIs, and Cork hurlers are in similar stage at moment but none of them ever gave up. That's why they will always be there.

Some counties just don't have that same tradition or interest or desire to succeed. How do you fix that? When Kildare were good under Dwyer they had piles of money thrown at them and did not win an AI. Then the money disappeared back into horses.

threeball

Bonniedog wrote: »

Life is unfair, sport is unfair.

Same teams have been consistently excelling at hurling and/or football for 130 years, with some exceptions, and with some of the leading counties enduring periods of dominance or mediocrity. Dublin are in good period at moment but other bad periods will follow. Kilkenny and Kerry went for ten years or so without AIs, and Cork hurlers are in similar stage at moment but none of them ever gave up. That's why they will always be there.

Some counties just don't have that same tradition or interest or desire to succeed. How do you fix that? When Kildare were good under Dwyer they had piles of money thrown at them and did not win an AI. Then the money disappeared back into horses.

The money available to kildare at that time was chickenfeed compared to whats available to Dublin yet they nearly won an all ireland. Yet you consistently claim that money doesn't make a difference. Now which is it? A county with no tradition, gets limited funds and almost wins for the first time in 90 years. A team with huge tradition, gets monstrous funding and wins 4 in a row and what, 6 in 7 years? Hardly a debate so is it.

Dots1982

howiya wrote: »

The set up of the Super 8s is completely unfair.

The setup is unfair and has been for quite some time. The answer is simple. Be a shoe heel and go on supporting national GAA and the completely flawed system they have organized or support your local GAA club, support LOI football, get your sporting fix elsewhere and maybe when things get straightened out in a few years come back to intercounty GAA.

Bonniedog

threeball wrote: »

The money available to kildare at that time was chickenfeed compared to whats available to Dublin yet they nearly won an all ireland. Yet you consistently claim that money doesn't make a difference. Now which is it? A county with no tradition, gets limited funds and almost wins for the first time in 90 years. A team with huge tradition, gets monstrous funding and wins 4 in a row and what, 6 in 7 years? Hardly a debate so is it.

You are actually proving my point! Kildare had huge money - also have great football tradition in fairness - and it did not get them over the line because they came up against a great Galway team mostly.

It was fly by night money from glory hunters used to buying Derbies and if you think it was "chicken feed" you know nothing about it!!! none of them had any interest in developing the county long term. That is being done now and Kildare are more than competitive at underage with Dublin in football, and have makings of a decent hurling set up as well although probably it will lose out with greater emphasis on football.

another county that is using its money wisely rather than building white elephants.

howiya

Dots1982 wrote: »

The setup is unfair and has been for quite some time. The answer is simple. Be a shoe heel and go on supporting national GAA and the completely flawed system they have organized or support your local GAA club, support LOI football, get your sporting fix elsewhere and maybe when things get straightened out in a few years come back to intercounty GAA.

I support all three. Involved in the club, support inter county when it doesn't clash and am an LOI season ticket holder but this is getting a bit off topic of what happened at Congress at the weekend. Good luck.

Dots1982

howiya wrote: »

I support all three. Involved in the club, support inter county when it doesn't clash and am an LOI season ticket holder but this is getting a bit off topic of what happened at Congress at the weekend. Good luck.

If you continue to go to games and line the pockets of the GAA and their fixed competition then don’t expect anything to change,

Fann Linn

Dots1982 wrote: »

If you continue to go to games and line the pockets of the GAA and their fixed competition then don’t expect anything to change,

You do know that its a two way street here.
The money generated at national inter county level flows down to the club you allegedly support, and furthermore, the delegate(s) your club puts forward to county level set the policies which are ultimately decided at national congress.

Dots1982

Fann Linn wrote: »

You do know that its a two way street here.
The money generated at national inter county level flows down to the club you allegedly support, and furthermore, the delegate(s) your club puts forward to county level set the policies which are ultimately decided at national congress.

True, I’m prepared to risk it.

threeball

Bonniedog wrote: »

You are actually proving my point! Kildare had huge money - also have great football tradition in fairness - and it did not get them over the line because they came up against a great Galway team mostly.

It was fly by night money from glory hunters used to buying Derbies and if you think it was "chicken feed" you know nothing about it!!! none of them had any interest in developing the county long term. That is being done now and Kildare are more than competitive at underage with Dublin in football, and have makings of a decent hurling set up as well although probably it will lose out with greater emphasis on football.

another county that is using its money wisely rather than building white elephants.

The great tradition of not winning all irelands or leinsters? They went from also rans to an All ireland in jot time with money and disappeared once it was gone. So you're undermining your own argument. They came up 4 points short against one of the all time great teams so it was hardly a failure.

Dots1982

It’s weird to me that something running on a three year trial basis like the super 8s has to have changes voted in via congress. I’d imagine it doesn’t but the powers that be don’t want any changes to how it’s presently run. A let fairness be damned approach.

ToBeFrank123

I think they will have to revisit the Super 8 Neutral venue issue.
While it was supposed to be about "glamour" ties in Croke Park it hasn't worked out.
The Galway v Kerry game was flat. Unless you get 60,000 minimum into Croker, the atmosphere can be flat.
If Galway v Kerry was played somewhere like Limerick, the atmosphere would have been much better.
And Croker is not a neutral venue for Dublin. Unfair to expect teams outside Leinster to travel there for a "neutral" Super 8 game in Dublin's backyard on front of a half empty Croke Park.

Barlett

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I think they will have to revisit the Super 8 Neutral venue issue.
While it was supposed to be about "glamour" ties in Croke Park it hasn't worked out.
The Galway v Kerry game was flat. Unless you get 60,000 minimum into Croker, the atmosphere can be flat.
If Galway v Kerry was played somewhere like Limerick, the atmosphere would have been much better.
And Croker is not a neutral venue for Dublin. Unfair to expect teams outside Leinster to travel there for a "Neutral" Super 8 game in Dublin's backyard on front of a half empty Croker Park.

This is the real issue, it should never have needed a motion. Croke Park is shoe horned into the championship as a venue at every opportunity, even when it's clear you're only going to get about 20,000 for some god awful triple header.

There are plenty of huge grounds around the country to accomodate Dublin, Mayo and every other county with big support and will keep the competiton fair for everyone from the Super Eights onwards.

I mean Galway beat Kerry last year...a big achievement, but it was like they had just beaten them in a challenge match because it took place in an empty Croke Park.

Bonniedog

I don't think any sane or fair minded person is arguing against that Barlett.

.
Donegal were told there was an option to go for excluding CP as neutral venue for Dublin, which would be fair thing to do, but they chose not to for some reason best known to themselves.


CP is dreadful place for the sort of games you describe, but many counties insist on it. Indeed there was uproar when it was suggested to move the lower tier hurling championships from CP. what people see in having 3/4,000 in a Grand Canyon like stadium with no atmosphere instead of a nice crowd in a more convenient and compact ground is beyond me.

huber

The Valentia motion was unfortunately defeated. No understanding of rural clubs and the real struggles of keeping a GAA club on the road.

ToBeFrank123

Urbanisation of populations will be a huge challenge to the GAA for the next few decades.

Rural clubs are struggling, urban ones struggling to cope with too many players.

Its very difficult to ask players from Kerry, Donegal, Mayo, etc working in Dublin to head home for club games. Particularly when they marry and have kids.

50 years from now Gaelic Football could be effectively dead in some rural areas at the senior age group.

Bonniedog

If this Project 2040 madness goes ahead, we will all be facing prospect of Irish people as a minority in the 26 counties. GAA will exist in museums if that becomes the case.

Dots1982

Bonniedog wrote: »

If this Project 2040 madness goes ahead, we will all be facing prospect of Irish people as a minority in the 26 counties. GAA will exist in museums if that becomes the case.

Didn’t know mass emigration of Irish people to be replaced by foreign people was one of the goals of project 2040?

Bonniedog

Dots1982 wrote: »

Didn’t know mass emigration of Irish people to be replaced by foreign people was one of the goals of project 2040?

Perhaps you should read it then

Dots1982

Bonniedog wrote: »

Perhaps you should read it then

The government is planning to systematically export its own people. It’s a bold strategy cotton

Hulk Hands

Not sure how anyone can argue that the argument, or wording of the argument, wasnt farcical. It needed to focus on the Neutral Super 8 game. Inexplicably, they focused on Dublin's home game. If the home game got moved to Parnell park and the neutral at CP, Dublin would still have 2 home games. The motion was never achieving anything anyway.

Home game at CP, neutral game outside the county if the easy fix. Whether that motion would've passed is a different story. Very little incentive for hurling first counties to vote in favour when it doesn't affect them bar stopping a revenue stream. It's frustrating

Bonniedog

Dots1982 wrote: »

The government is planning to systematically export its own people. It’s a bold strategy cotton

This government or any likely replacement could not plan a p1ss up in a brewery. They are admin for Brussels and corporations.

Logic of Project 2040 is to import lots of cheap labour, turn Dublin into high rise kip. Educated younger people leave. Over 100,000 in 2017 and 2018. 170,000 immigrants in same two year period - if you go by the official figures and I would not!

It's not rocket science and it is happening elsewhere.

munchkin_utd

Hulk Hands wrote: »

<snip>
Home game at CP, neutral game outside the county if the easy fix. Whether that motion would've passed is a different story. Very little incentive for hurling first counties to vote in favour when it doesn't affect them bar stopping a revenue stream. It's frustrating

100% agree that that is what should have been put.

Even for hurling counties, you have Limerick, Cork, Tipp (and even KK if Dublin werent playing) with stadiums big enough to cater for neutral football super 8 ganes, so if they were thinking of money they'd actually be in favour of moving the games round the country as they could benefit directly from the rent income.

But the Donegal motion was literally asking congress to move one of Dublins games to Parnell Park which was not making anything any more fair or better.

Hulk Hands

Not just the hurling counties I suppose. Super 8s have a lifespan of 2 more years and a good 15+ counties have zero chance of making them in that time. No point in them stopping the revenue stream either

Bonniedog

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Not just the hurling counties I suppose. Super 8s have a lifespan of 2 more years and a good 15+ counties have zero chance of making them in that time. No point in them stopping the revenue stream either

How many teams have a realistic chance of winning the hurling either?

A few more maybe than 20 years ago, but no more than 9 at the very limit. And that's with a more open competition now that Cats have come back to the pack it seems. I'd nearly say you could boil it down to one of Limerick, Tipp, Galway and one of Cork, Clare and Waterford as potential outside chance.

No different than football ever was really. There are maybe seven counties with any chance: Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Dublin, Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal.

You go back 20, 50, 75, 100 years, there would be little change in either list other than the absence of Cats and inclusion of three Ulster teams who were late starters.

Hulk Hands

Not disputing the level of competition past or present in the GAA. Simply pointing out the conflicts of interest that exist when stuff comes to Congress that generally works against the interest of fairness in the sports themselves

grbear

Targeting the neutral game would have gotten even less support than the motion Donegal tabled. It might not matter much to teams who play a lot at Croke Park regularly but it'd be easier to sell ice to Eskimos than sell traditionalists within the GAA on the idea that a provincial champion wouldn't be guaranteed a game in Croke Park.