Congress 2019

Bonniedog

If their object was to stop Dublin having two games in CP - which is a reasonable proposal - then the motion could have been clearly worded to that effect. It would only have impacted on whoever Dublin were due to play in the CP game. Can't see any team that had serious ambitions wanting to play in CP against Dublin if there was another option.

But back we go again. They did not word it thus even though Croke Park had meetings with them pointing out all of the ramifications and that they were open to congress voting to change the provision for a Dublin Croke Park game but that Dublin be allowed to choose it as a home venue.

But they didn't and they lost. so back to the drawing board.

They do not even seem to have grasped that only impact of their motion being passed was that Dublin would have two games in Dublin and one in Parnell which you could fill and over with Dublin county board and season tickets, and where Dublin are even more comfortable than in Croke Park.

Unless of course they had a second string to their attack which some suspect they may have done that would also have prevented Dublin playing in Donnycarney/

ToBeFrank123

Its the neutral game they need to target. But given that about half the counties playing football have no chance of making the super 8s, these counties aren't bothered.

So every county is out for their own benefit, often at the price of the overall welfare or fairness of the game.

MayoAreMagic

To be honest, all this talk about poor wordings, amendments, congress etc. is not really necessary and kinda misses the point as regards the super 8 issue.
In reality, come super 8 time, there is nothing stopping the gaa from saying that since Dublins home and coke park game are going to be two de facto home games, while everyone else only gets one, we will just move the neutral game to X neutral venue.
The all Ireland semi final was supposed to be played in croke park a few years back, but they moved it to limerick... They moved an ulster final to cp back in the 00s. They can move games to wherever they want. They just need to want to...
This thing about congress and now having to wait another year is an would tall tale, there is no need for a motion for this to happen.

OldMrBrennan83

No matter what happens, the quarter final groups are going to be worse than the old quarter finals for the most part because they're not knockout games. A final round game where it's winner takes all would be the exception.

Bonniedog

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

This thing about congress and now having to wait another year is an would tall tale, there is no need for a motion for this to happen.

There is actually. The structure of the 8s was voted on (approved by around 75%) at 2017 Congress and can only be changed by another vote at Congress.

There was no rule governing where games other than the AI finals could be held in the years you refer to. There is still nothing to stop an Ulster final being held in Croke Park.

The reason the Mayo/Kerry replay was held in Limerick had to do with bad planning and prioritising of the venue by CP, but there was no rule to be invoked as there is now with 8s.

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

There is actually. The structure of the 8s was voted on (approved by around 75%) at 2017 Congress and can only be changed by another vote at Congress.

There was no rule governing where games other than the AI finals could be held in the years you refer to. There is still nothing to stop an Ulster final being held in Croke Park.

The reason the Mayo/Kerry replay was held in Limerick had to do with bad planning and prioritising of the venue by CP, but there was no rule to be invoked as there is now with 8s.

But the structure of the semi finals was agreed also. Semi finals are in cp. That is no different to saying the cp/neutral game is in cp. Re the semi final, if cp is unavailable you just go at a different date. Common sense told us that the game needed to go ahead with the final looming - ie excptional circumstances. So it did.

I disagree on the moving of the ulster final. There is a structure in place in ulster. They just decided to forego it (No common sense involved, just greed).
They also just dumped the handpass limit rule at the last second, when it was agreed it would be trialled. If they can do these things and not be hamstrung by red tape then they can do the same with the croke park game in the super 8s on the grounds of common sense under exceptional circumstances.

Would anyone argue if they did? It's an oversight anyway, why not just move the game somewhere else and balance the thing up? They can do it

Bonniedog

They could and possibly still can move the semi finals as has been done on various occasions through the years. That is in prerogative of CCC.


The 8s structure for group stage including the provision for CP, home and away, was voted on by Congress and can only be changed by Congress.

RedDevil55

Bonniedog wrote: »

They could and possibly still can move the semi finals as has been done on various occasions through the years. That is in prerogative of CCC.


The 8s structure for group stage including the provision for CP, home and away, was voted on by Congress and can only be changed by Congress.

The same way the Liam Miller tribute match couldn't go ahead in PUC until a motion was passed at Congress...

ToBeFrank123

The most exciting games of the Super 8s were the ones played in the likes of Clones (Monaghan v Kerry) and Omagh (Tyrone v Dublin). A couple of other games too.

The least exciting were the ones at Croke Park. Unless Croke Park is full or almost full, the atmosphere is flat.

So yes maybe they need to reconsider CP as the neutral venue. A nice idea to give counties at least one run out in CP as a reward for making the super 8s but in practice adds nothing to the competition.

Dublin v Kerry in Thurles, Mayo v Kerry in Limerick, these would be cracking neutral venue games.

MayoAreMagic

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The most exciting games of the Super 8s were the ones played in the likes of Clones (Monaghan v Kerry) and Omagh (Tyrone v Dublin). A couple of other games too.

The least exciting were the ones at Croke Park. Unless Croke Park is full or almost full, the atmosphere is flat.

So yes maybe they need to reconsider CP as the neutral venue. A nice idea to give counties at least one run out in CP as a reward for making the super 8s but in practice adds nothing to the competition.

Dublin v Kerry in Thurles, Mayo v Kerry in Limerick, these would be cracking neutral venue games.

Agreed.
Also, there is this perception that they are making more money by putting them in cp. But if you look at the figures, I'm not convinced that this is even the case any more. The super 8s aren't knockouts, they are basically league type games. Dragging teams up to cp to play them is losing fans. With the Dublin attendances dropping, I would argue that it is losing more attendees from all the other games, than it is gaining by having the Dublin games in cp. That would in fact make it a profit losing exercise...

bruschi

It was a very easy motion to put forward without causing all neutral games to be banished from Croke Park.

"all neutral games between participating counties must be played in a ground outside of both counties".

Simple. Leaves the option open to play other neutral games in Croke Park if they so deem so. Means Dublin have to play their neutral game outside Dublin.

Croke Park is overused and is now becoming not as illustrious or as big a deal anymore. The more it is used, the less ambitious it is for counties to try reach there.

ToBeFrank123

bruschi wrote: »

It was a very easy motion to put forward without causing all neutral games to be banished from Croke Park.

"all neutral games between participating counties must be played in a ground outside of both counties".

Simple. Leaves the option open to play other neutral games in Croke Park if they so deem so. Means Dublin have to play their neutral game outside Dublin.

Croke Park is overused and is now becoming not as illustrious or as big a deal anymore. The more it is used, the less ambitious it is for counties to try reach there.

Agreed. It should be left to counties to decide between themselves. So if Roscommon and Galway meet, they can decide to play it in CP or else in Castlebar. Another issue is going to Dublin is expensive for the hardcore support who follow their county everywhere. CP is often the preserve of the so called "sunshine" supporter. Not really fair to drag supporters all the way from Kerry, Cork, Donegal, etc.

Bonniedog

The Dublin attendance is falling.

Really?

35,000 there for the Mayo game. That would have been higher than the average league final attendance for most of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Dots1982

Bonniedog wrote: »

The Dublin attendance is falling.

Really?

35,000 there for the Mayo game. That would have been higher than the average league final attendance for most of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Ah now, The 90s is a long time ago, never mind the 70s & 80s.

The attendances have been falling for the past few years. A few blockbusting replays versus Mayo saved face. But the crowds have completely dropped since the times Dublin would routinely get 70k or 80k for a Leinster final.

Fann Linn

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ah now, The 90s is a long time ago, never mind the 70s & 80s.

The attendances have been falling for the past few years. A few blockbusting replays versus Mayo saved face. But the crowds have completely dropped since the times Dublin would routinely get 70k or 80k for a Leinster final.

They'd fall even further if Dublin were playing Mayo in Parnell Park😆😆😆

Dots1982

Fann Linn wrote: »

They'd fall even further if Dublin were playing Mayo in Parnell Park😆😆😆

Irrelevant to my point.

Hulk Hands

bruschi wrote: »

It was a very easy motion to put forward without causing all neutral games to be banished from Croke Park.

"all neutral games between participating counties must be played in a ground outside of both counties".

Simple. Leaves the option open to play other neutral games in Croke Park if they so deem so. Means Dublin have to play their neutral game outside Dublin.

Croke Park is overused and is now becoming not as illustrious or as big a deal anymore. The more it is used, the less ambitious it is for counties to try reach there.

Yep that's the way around it. And people forget that the neutral game in Dublin's case is the meeting of the provincial champions (or near certain these days). It's incredibly unlikely that a minnow who want the achievement of reaching Croke Park are going to be playing in this game as a provincial champion. The biggest unfairness of the whole thing is that it's a provincial champion, who should be being rewarded over a qualifier, that gets screwed with having two away games

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

The Dublin attendance is falling.

Really?

35,000 there for the Mayo game. That would have been higher than the average league final attendance for most of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

A very deliberate attempt to skew the facts in front of us...
Attendances of Dublin support is falling, that is a fact. I could be similarly faceatious and say that for all we know those 35000 fans could be all mayo fans, but im not going down the same disingenuous road you are...

Barlett

I don’t see how anyone other than comical Ali could argue against the fact that attendances for Dublin games are falling & it’s simply because no one wants to go to games that aren’t competitive.

Mayo have a great support currently but if we enjoyed similar dominance or fell away so would the support.

Think of the support Dublin had this time ten years ago compared to now - it’s night & day, and that’s because back then everyone felt they were on a journey with the team in this quest for an All Ireland whereas now, they win them in their sleep

Fr Tod Umptious

Barlett wrote: »

I don’t see how anyone other than comical Ali could argue against the fact that attendances for Dublin games are falling & it’s simply because no one wants to go to games that aren’t competitive.

Mayo have a great support currently but if we enjoyed similar dominance or fell away so would the support.

Think of the support Dublin had this time ten years ago compared to now - it’s night & day, and that’s because back then everyone felt they were on a journey with the team in this quest for an All Ireland whereas now, they win them in their sleep

That's spot on.

Back in the mid '00s Dublin legitimately needed stand alone QF fixtures because of demand.

Interestingly they have not had one since the start of their current run in 2011.

Perifect

Also, weren't the attendances very low for the games that were played outside Croke Park? All around 15,000?

Bonniedog

Attendances for championship games have fallen back to pre 2002 levels, but are still higher than historical average.

League attendances are well up, not only in Dublin and Mayo but in other counties as well, and hurling league attendances are healthy.

You do have a point regarding the fall off in championship after 2011 when Dublin won. I think the mad crowds in 200s - sellouts for Leinster semis in the name of jaysus! = also had to fo with the novelty and comfort and food and drink in Croke Park, and it was before the Blackrock Boys nearly ruined the kip so there was a bit of poke around!

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

Attendances for championship games have fallen back to pre 2002 levels, but are still higher than historical average.

League attendances are well up, not only in Dublin and Mayo but in other counties as well, and hurling league attendances are healthy.

You do have a point regarding the fall off in championship after 2011 when Dublin won. I think the mad crowds in 200s - sellouts for Leinster semis in the name of jaysus! = also had to fo with the novelty and comfort and food and drink in Croke Park, and it was before the Blackrock Boys nearly ruined the kip so there was a bit of poke around!

What you are saying is a bit like saying that because, historically, football was more attacking, the recent, general move away from ultra defensive structures is therefore inconsequential in the here and now, as they are still not as attacking as they were 30 years..

The reality is the attendances of Dublin and all their opponents, probably bar ourselves, are dropping noticeably. This is down to a growing apathy within the sport, due to the biased nature of the competition and indeed the ethos of those making the rules. In reality, were mayo not getting close to Dublin in an odd big game, our fans would undoubtedly be dropping off too. We got a glimpse into the future last season, when mayo were gone and nobody gave them a game. If things take a similar path this year, I'd imagine crowds to drop again.

People say the 90s were the best time for Gaelic football. Why? If you watch it back, the level was actually quite poor. It was simply because there were so many different teams involved, and also Dublin and kerry were both in lulls. That is the lesson for congress. Football doesn't need superteams, it needs plenty teams able to beat each other.

Bonniedog

So we need Dublin and Kerry to be crap so that some mediocre team might win it!

Interesting......

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

So we need Dublin and Kerry to be crap so that some mediocre team might win it!

Interesting......

That isn't what I stated. I said that the period in history which is widely accepted as the optimum time for Gaelic football for fans across the board, occurred when the elite teams were at a similar level to each other..

So the ethos of funding one team to comedic extremes over their rivals, is, and frankly it is depressing that this point isn't common sense to everyone, not the best way to develop the game. In fact it is the exact opposite.

Perifect

Why fund the big counties? Wouldn't it make way more sense to fund the rest? Wouldn't that make it fair?

Bonniedog

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

That isn't what I stated. I said that the period in history which is widely accepted as the optimum time for Gaelic football for fans across the board, occurred when the elite teams were at a similar level to each other..

So the ethos of funding one team to comedic extremes over their rivals, is, and frankly it is depressing that this point isn't common sense to everyone, not the best way to develop the game. In fact it is the exact opposite.

Mayo have spent more on the senior football team than Dublin in recent years.

I don't get your point

Perifect

Bonniedog wrote: »

Mayo have spent more on the senior football team than Dublin in recent years.

I don't get your point

Did Mayo spend huge money on travel expenses? Dublin have spent 35 million on developing underage players since 2005?

Bonniedog

Perifect wrote: »

Did Mayo spend huge money on travel expenses? Dublin have spent 35 million on developing underage players since 2005?

35 million

Perhaps if Mayo had spent more on underage they might not be dragging out chaps who no longer look remotely interested?

Dublin have competitive teams in all GAA sports from under 14s up. Mayo don't. Too much in the one pot perhaps?

Perifect

Bonniedog wrote: »

35 million

Perhaps if Mayo had spent more on underage they might not be dragging out chaps who no longer look remotely interested?

Dublin have competitive teams in all GAA sports from under 14s up. Mayo don't. Too much in the one pot perhaps?

Yes, 35 million.

That's Mayo's issue. You claimed Mayo spent more than Dublin on their senior team in recent years. You ignored the 35 million Dublin have spent on underage.