Scotland v Ireland.

Akrasia

Kearney's shoulder charge was much more blatant than the POM incident but then the Scottish were putting in late tackles of their own on Sexton, Laidlaw stamped on two of our players hands in a ruck so they haven't got much to be complaining about.

BBDBB

So six of one and half a dozen of the other, typical of most games of rugby.

redmca2

Deleted User wrote: »

Is Hogg made of glass ? Because that’s barely a tumble and doesn’t even look awkward.

Hogg is a drama queen. He was ticked off a few years ago by Nigel Owens for over-egging a hard tackle. Yesterday before the POM incident he got up holding his head and then it turned out to be his shoulder .....

molloyjh

For me POM was going to block the ball and collided with Hogg. It wasn't a tackle attempt at all. Players collide all the time. As for the supposed late hit on Sexton for the Stockdale try, there was nothing in that either.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

As for the supposed late hit on Sexton for the Stockdale try, there was nothing in that either.

I think many players are looking for these opportunities during the game where they know Sexton will pass the ball so late and close to the tackle that they can go full pelt in to put a hard hit in on him knowing they have a get out clause with the refs. “Sorry ref I was committed”, and the replay shows Sexton passing just before the hard hit. It’s a legal “tackle” by the books but it’s designed to get at Sexton.

Fair wax to Sexton for repeatedly putting himself in harms way but I have to ask is it really worth while.

leakyboots

Meant to mention in my post earlier but the Stockdale score was absolutely top drawer. Sometimes I think the criticisms of ours backs ability to play heads up attacking rugby are valid but Schmidders has some seriously inventive and creative moves in his arsenal. Chapeau Monsieur, this was one of our best tries in a long time.

Murray's analysis:

thescoreie://article/4486169?source=fbal&target_url=http%3A%2F%2Fjrnl.ie%2F4486169f

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

I think many players are looking for these opportunities during the game where they know Sexton will pass the ball so late and close to the tackle that they can go full pelt in to put a hard hit in on him knowing they have a get out clause with the refs. “Sorry ref I was committed”, and the replay shows Sexton passing just before the hard hit. It’s a legal “tackle” by the books but it’s designed to get at Sexton.

Fair wax to Sexton for repeatedly putting himself in harms way but I have to ask is it really worth while.

Every team will target the opposition 10. Sexton knows what he's getting himself into. He didn't go off in the end due to any of that. I think people are getting a bit worked up over nothing here.

lbc2019

fitz wrote: »

And Sexton, who was starting to control the game, having to go off after repeated late hits wasn't game changing?
Gimme a break. The hand wringing from the Scots about the Hogg challenge is beyond rich given the treatment Sexton got.
Pure salty.

See Sexton's treatment from France/NZ and come back to me about poor Hogg

Former Former

lbc2019 wrote: »

See Sexton's treatment from France/NZ and come back to me about poor Hogg

This is madness. Really nasty stuff. What have France or NZ got to do with Hogg?

troyzer

I don't think it's necessarily inevitable that a 10 gets battered.

Farrell had a terrific game today which allowed him to stay on his feet for the most part. I only remember one huge hit that he took in the first half.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Every team will target the opposition 10. Sexton knows what he's getting himself into. He didn't go off in the end due to any of that. I think people are getting a bit worked up over nothing here.

Not disagreeing at all, I’m just saying it’s a legal way of getting their hit in on Sexton. I don’t see anyone getting worked up over it by the way.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Scotland hit Sexton hard yesterday and he had to exit early. That was a clear plan from Scotland to help them win the game.
I expect Schmidt is going to get Ireland in the last 3 games to be very physical and ensure no repeat Of the England performance where they were not only physically dominated but also bullied
He will want them to protect each other

leakyboots

Schmidt himself after the game said he 'Johnny copped a bit of attention, I don't think any of it was unfair'

lbc2019

Former Former wrote: »

This is madness. Really nasty stuff. What have France or NZ got to do with Hogg?

Their late challenges that went unpunished on Sexton were far worse than O'Mahoney's challenge


Still annoyed with the Scottish supporters from yesterday- still for some its their first year in Murrayfield I suppose...

Former Former

lbc2019 wrote: »

Their late challenges that went unpunished on Sexton were far worse than O'Mahoney's challenge


Still annoyed with the Scottish supporters from yesterday- still for some its their first year in Murrayfield I suppose...

So, a French guy hits Sexton late in 2018. This makes it OK for POM to shoulder-charge a Scottish player in 2019?

And you think the Scottish fans are the problem?

lbc2019

Former Former wrote: »

So, a French guy hits Sexton late in 2018. This makes it OK for POM to shoulder-charge a Scottish player in 2019?

And you think the Scottish fans are the problem?

wasn't just 2018, 2016 was far worse. Who are you implying is the problem?

leakyboots

The question was put to Shane Jennings, Shane Byrne and Murray Kinsella on the highlights show there about the late hits on Sexton and they all agreed unanimously (with a shrug of the shoulders) that the hits were fine. Johnny brings it up to the line, he pays the price for releasing at the last second but enables a score like Stockdale's one to happen.

He cops punishment because he plays that close to the tackle, it's his choice to do that

troyzer

lbc2019 wrote: »

Former Former wrote: »

So, a French guy hits Sexton late in 2018. This makes it OK for POM to shoulder-charge a Scottish player in 2019?

And you think the Scottish fans are the problem?

wasn't just 2018, 2016 was far worse. Who are you implying is the problem?

Christ, we're going back to 2016 now.

Go back to your box. Didn't a mod ban you from the thread?

lbc2019

leakyboots wrote: »

The question was put to Shane Jennings, Shane Byrne and Murray Kinsella on the highlights show there about the late hits on Sexton and they all agreed unanimously (with a shrug of the shoulders) that the hits were fine. Johnny brings it up to the line, he pays the price for releasing at the last second but enables a score like Stockdale's one to happen.

He cops punishment because he plays that close to the tackle, it's his choice to do that

Yes, and the late challenge on Hogg is the same

lbc2019

lbc2019 wrote: »

Yes, and the late challenge on Hogg is the same

It would be the same if a player had a 'collision' with sexton after he passes the ball, but leading with the shoulder and no arm involvement.

fitz

molloyjh wrote: »

Every team will target the opposition 10.

Yeah, but at what stage does it become an issue of protecting players?
How many "late but legal" hits allowed before it's acknowledged that these aren't genuine attempts to tackle and it's seen as attempting to injure someone? If someone's timing is persistently off just enough for big hits to get out on a player just after they pass/kick, it's not accidental.

Lawes is terrible for it, particularly for hitting kickers with their leg planted.

I think there's a big difference between pressuring players and just going out to clobber someone cynically. Just because Sexton toughs it out doesn't mean it's right to allow teams to target him physically by exploiting leeway for "being committed".

And it's not just a Sexton thing, I think these deliberate "not quite late" hits need to be looked at in general.

Former Former

leakyboots wrote: »

The question was put to Shane Jennings, Shane Byrne and Murray Kinsella on the highlights show there about the late hits on Sexton and they all agreed unanimously (with a shrug of the shoulders) that the hits were fine. Johnny brings it up to the line, he pays the price for releasing at the last second but enables a score like Stockdale's one to happen.

He cops punishment because he plays that close to the tackle, it's his choice to do that

Yes, exactly this. If Sexton doesn't get hit, then Stockdale does and there's no line break and no try. He wants to get hit.

thebaz

I'm not buying this Sexton wants to get hit -

He has been targeted now for 2 or 3 years by various teams , perhaps it is just within the law , but I cant see Sexton lasting the length of our WC challenge , cause of all this legal targetting.

troyzer

thebaz wrote: »

I'm not buying this Sexton wants to get hit -

He has been targeted now for 2 or 3 years by various teams , perhaps it is just within the law , but I cant see Sexton lasting the length of our WC challenge , cause of all this legal targetting.

You're missing the point. Sexton's entire game is drawing in a defender and forcing them to commit before getting the pass off.

If he wasn't being tackled, it wouldn't work. The reason why the impacts look so bad is because he isn't bracing, he's passing.

FrancieBrady

thebaz wrote: »

I'm not buying this Sexton wants to get hit -

He has been targeted now for 2 or 3 years by various teams , perhaps it is just within the law , but I cant see Sexton lasting the length of our WC challenge , cause of all this legal targetting.

There is no doubt some teams take vicious advantage to try and take him out.
Refs have to get wise to it in general before somebodies career is ended.

errlloyd

I played ten for a while years ago, and I hated getting tackled. Except when I had got the pass away. It was an incredibly satisfying feeling.

But, I wasn't being hit by 110kg professional athletes.

errlloyd

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no doubt some teams take vicious advantage to try and take him out.
Refs have to get wise to it in general before somebodies career is ended.

To a certain extent Lambies career was ended by a player following through late on a charge down. I know Stander didn't intend to injure Lambie, but he intended to charge with enough intent to put him off kicking.

fitz

troyzer wrote: »

You're missing the point. Sexton's entire game is drawing in a defender and forcing them to commit before getting the pass off.

If he wasn't being tackled, it wouldn't work. The reason why the impacts look so bad is because he isn't bracing, he's passing.

Sexton gets hit plenty when he's not taking it to the line. I'm not really talking about when he successfully draws tackles and puts someone into space. That's fine. It's the "let him know your there" stuff that he's been repeatedly subjected to.

TMOs need to get more strict on it and call it out to refs, who often don't catch it as they're following where the ball has gone.

If you go out to try and force someone off the pitch by repeatedly "getting your timing slightly wrong" with big hits you should be penalised for it.

leakyboots

It's one of the most basic premises of rugby - draw the tackler then release the ball. Just because Sexton does it right as the tackler commits doesn't make it illegal. He takes an amount of punishment but most of it is within the laws, it's just part of what makes him a great player.

I don't think it's the wisest move by him from a durability/health viewpoint. BOD was the same with his approach to tackling, he'd tackle the smallest/largest opponent (or a wall!) with the same ferocity, more than once sparking himself out.

It's not nice to see a fella getting absolutely creamed without a ball in his hand but if he releases it a nanosecond before impact you can't really complain I think.

I admire his bravery but really hope he's fit enough for the RWC, or more seriously, in thirty years time.

Good discussion on Newstalk today about concussion - referred to an Aussie player (Faainga I think?) who had to be held up at the altar of his brother's wedding because of his dizzy spells he was so out of it with concussion. Got concussed once myself when playing and was in a complete fog for the following 24 hrs, very disorientating.

Something that may be getting lost in all of this is Sexton's concussion and subsequent substitution was as a result of a stray boot when he ankle-tackled a fella, not the late hits.

Former Former

errlloyd wrote: »

To a certain extent Lambies career was ended by a player following through late on a charge down. I know Stander didn't intend to injure Lambie, but he intended to charge with enough intent to put him off kicking.

Devil's advocate.

How do we know that Stander didn't intend to nail Lambie, yet we know that all these dastardly foreigners are definitely targeting Sexton for maximum damage?

fitz

Former Former wrote: »

Devil's advocate.

How do we know that Stander didn't intend to nail Lambie, yet we know that all these dastardly foreigners are definitely targeting Sexton for maximum damage?

We don't, but that was a one-off incident. When something is done repeatedly in a game, as is often the case with hits on Sexton, it's much clearer that there's intent in it. It's naive to think he's hit "marginally" late as frequently as he is by accident.

errlloyd

I never bought that Stander swung his hip towards Lambies head. But I don't think a forward that misses a charge down is ever disappointed to make contact with the kicker. So I guess I don't think Stander hoped to injure him, but of course he wanted to make contact. And injury is a consequence of contact...

thebaz

troyzer wrote: »

You're missing the point. Sexton's entire game is drawing in a defender and forcing them to commit before getting the pass off.

eh, thers more top Sextons game than drawing defenders , to get hit -

Kicking/defence/controlling games to name some other traits .

He has been constantly targeted down the years , cause he is such a good allround player, and key to Ireland and leinster success - again I say I doubt Sexton will make it through Irelands WC campaign, cause of this targetting , and for me thats not good for rugby.

lawred2

troyzer wrote: »

You're missing the point. Sexton's entire game is drawing in a defender and forcing them to commit before getting the pass off.

If he wasn't being tackled, it wouldn't work. The reason why the impacts look so bad is because he isn't bracing, he's passing.

That's fair enough but he is hit just as much after kicking a high ball.. it's not always after drawing in his immediate defender

randomname2005

The timing of the impact is one aspect, and in the gray area discussed above, but I thought that the lack of control in the tackle would have been an issue. The tackler puts JS in a position where his head is, at best, level with his hips and does not bring him down to ground carefully.

https://youtu.be/O5ftHgGr0kg?t=59

razorblunt

Holy crap, the grumblings in work this morning from the Scots.

evil_seed

razorblunt wrote: »

Holy crap, the grumblings in work this morning from the Scots.

I think they've every right to grumble. They were rode sideways by Poite. Now he didn't make them play sh1t, but the decisions in our favour were terrible.
I thought watching it live that we were bad, and Scotland were worse. Watching it back I'm still in that same frame of thinking. I noticed a lot more dirty play (read "smart play" for the miopic) where we hand hands in rucks, side entry, slow rolling away. Ref let us away with loads. Enough has been said on Hoggs injury and Kearney's Farrell impression.

awec

thebaz wrote: »

eh, thers more top Sextons game than drawing defenders , to get hit -

Kicking/defence/controlling games to name some other traits .

He has been constantly targeted down the years , cause he is such a good allround player, and key to Ireland and leinster success - again I say I doubt Sexton will make it through Irelands WC campaign, cause of this targetting , and for me thats not good for rugby.

Meh.

I'd love it if Ulster had a back row who could give Sexton the same treatment he got on Saturday.

Hitting him as hard and as often as you can within the laws is a perfectly fine tactic as far as I'm concerned.

Sangre

evil_seed wrote: »

I think they've every right to grumble. They were rode sideways by Poite. Now he didn't make them play sh1t, but the decisions in our favour were terrible.
I thought watching it live that we were bad, and Scotland were worse. Watching it back I'm still in that same frame of thinking. I noticed a lot more dirty play (read "smart play" for the miopic) where we hand hands in rucks, side entry, slow rolling away. Ref let us away with loads. Enough has been said on Hoggs injury and Kearney's Farrell impression.

Although oddly he was very slow to ping Scotland in the scrum. Another ref would have given Ireland 3-4 more scrum penalties.

awec

fitz wrote: »

Sexton gets hit plenty when he's not taking it to the line. I'm not really talking about when he successfully draws tackles and puts someone into space. That's fine. It's the "let him know your there" stuff that he's been repeatedly subjected to.

TMOs need to get more strict on it and call it out to refs, who often don't catch it as they're following where the ball has gone.

If you go out to try and force someone off the pitch by repeatedly "getting your timing slightly wrong" with big hits you should be penalised for it.

Not really sure this is what they are doing.

They are just letting him know he's not going to get a free ride if he wants to run with the ball right to the line. Perfectly legitimate.

They didn't even force him off on Saturday, pretty sure it was his own player who did that (though stand to be corrected).

stephen_n

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/gullyburrows93/status/1094272108824354816?s=19

Wow :eek: how the hell did that not get picked up by the TMO

kilns

For a Joe Schmidt team, I find some little things worrying. Murrays first try, why not run it under the posts giving the easiest possible conversion. Carbery ball watching for the offload on Scotlands try and then not properly chasing Jones and allowing him to gain a few yards in field to make their conversion that bit easier and the POM elbow on Hogg, very fine line that one, it should have been a yellow card and penalty which potentially could have swung the game.

They are small incidents but for the trys it was a 4 point swing and running the fine line of a penalty and yellow card it could have been alot worse.

I think these things happen when you are not fully focused and tuned in.

awec

POM got away with that one. Certain penalty and certain yellow card.

stephen_n

fitz wrote: »

We don't, but that was a one-off incident. When something is done repeatedly in a game, as is often the case with hits on Sexton, it's much clearer that there's intent in it. It's naive to think he's hit "marginally" late as frequently as he is by accident.

That’s more than a little precious, every back row that has ever played does this. It’s one of the most enjoyable parts of the game, letting a 10 know you’re there, forcing them to sit deeper. Sexton plays on the gain line, as everyone from BOD to Joe has said. He’s a big boy and is well able for it.

thebaz

awec wrote: »

Meh.

Hitting him as hard and as often as you can within the laws is a perfectly fine tactic as far as I'm concerned.

Deliberatly targetting a player , to injure him , be it within the law is not fine with me - sometimes the law is an ass , and I would prefer to see a game where talented players can play , not just a game for monsters . Players should be protected in my opinion from being deliberated targeted to be injured from playing.

ps I know it is a grey area, and dont want to lose the physical spect , but protection from deliberate targeting to injurre any player should be considered.

Perifect

thebaz wrote: »

Deliberatly targetting a player , to injure him , be it within the law is not fine with me - sometimes the law is an ass , and I would prefer to see a game where talented players can play , not just a game for monsters . Players should be protected in my opinion from being deliberated targeted to be injured from playing.

So it should be a penalty if Sexton gets tackled hard?

thebaz

Perifect wrote: »

So it should be a penalty if Sexton gets tackled hard?

Sexton really gets a rough ride here -

no , but he is entitled to be protected from playing

awec

thebaz wrote: »

Sexton really gets a rough ride here -

no , but he is entitled to be protected from playing

He can be protected. If he stops running to the gain line.

Any half back who fancies getting too close to the line is fair game. I'd expect our forwards to do the exact same.

Perifect

thebaz wrote: »

Sexton really gets a rough ride here -

no , but he is entitled to be protected from playing

In what way? The ref has to tell the other team that you can't tackle Sexton?

thebaz

awec wrote: »

He can be protected. If he stops running to the gain line.

Any half back who fancies getting too close to the line is fair game. I'd expect our forwards to do the exact same.

not sure of any player in the modern game targetted as much as Sexton , even in media - yes its a sign of a quality player , but I would like to see the better players on the pitch rather than injured on the sidelines - and as have said prevoiously I can not see Johnny last our complete WC campaign, without some protection