Kerry clubs grading system

PARlance

keane2097 wrote: »

Beaufort has about 250 people, they are just good at football.

Split them in two!

BPKS

PARlance wrote: »

Just out of interest, anyone have a breakdown of the Kerry squad versus Dublin, in terms of their clubs status?

1 Shane Ryan (Rathmore) - Senior
2 Peter Crowley (Laune Rangers) - Intermediate (but now in Division 4 of County League for first time I can remember)
3 Jack Sherwood (Firies) - Junior A
4 Brian Begley (An Ghaeltacht) - Intermediate
5 Tadhg Morley (Templenoe) - Intermediate
6 Paul Murphy (Rathmore) - Senior
7 Tom O Sullivan (Dingle) - Senior
8 Jack Barry (Na Gaeil) - Junior A
9 Adrian Spillane (Templenoe) - Intermediate
10 Diarmuid O Connor (Na Gaeil) - Junior A
11 Sean O Shea (Kenmare) - Intermediate
12 Dara Moynihan (Spa) - Intermediate
13 Paul Geaney (Dingle) - Senior
14 David Moran (Kerins O Rahillys) - Senior
15 Stephen O Brien (Kenmare) - Intermediate

16 Brian Kelly (Legion) - Senior
17 Jonathan Lyne (Legion) - Senior
18 Mikey Geaney (Dingle) - Senior
19 Gavin Crowley (Templenoe) - Intermediate
20 Gavin O Brien (Kerins O Rahillys) - Senior
21 Tommy Walsh (Kerins O Rahillys) - Senior
22 Mark Griffin (St Michaels Foilmore) - Junior A (I think they were relegated last year but not 100%)
23 Jason Foley (Ballydonoghue) - Junior A
24 Tomas O Se (An Ghaeltacht) - Intermediate
25 Shane Enright (Tarbert) - Junior B
26 Conor Geaney (Dingle) - Senior





On the overall point being made by Ewan McKenna, I would just like to point out that in the semi final, Kilcummin won by 1 point against the Kildare and Leinster Intermediate champions while Beaufort won by 2 points against the Louth and Leinster Junior champions. Both games could easily have gone either way.

bruschi

There are 8 clubs in the Kerry senior championship and 16 in their intermediate from what I can see. So Junior is largely unaffected by divisional sides or diluting quality. And with 8 teams in senior, its 4 less than a lot of counties who play with 12, not a huge issue in the scheme of things. If other counties play with 16 or more, thats their issue, not Kerrys.

PARlance

Cheers for that BPKS, some spread across the grades even allowing for less Senior teams.

Necro

bruschi wrote: »

There are 8 clubs in the Kerry senior championship and 16 in their intermediate from what I can see. So Junior is largely unaffected by divisional sides or diluting quality. And with 8 teams in senior, its 4 less than a lot of counties who play with 12, not a huge issue in the scheme of things. If other counties play with 16 or more, thats their issue, not Kerrys.

Actually Sligo are in the middle of replicating this system currently, 8 teams in senior, 8 in intermediate and 8 in junior. IIRC the senior championship now has 8 teams and the restructuring of the Intermediate and Junior is to be completed following this year's competition.

Already there have been benefits with Easkey this year winning a Connacht Junior title (shame about their AI Final performance but that's football), and Ballymote reaching a Connacht Junior Final in 2017.

At present instead of the divisional teams though clubs at intermediate and junior grades are being given an option to enter an amalgamated side for the senior championship which as of yet isn't popular due to parish politics, player availability etc.
My own opinion on the amalgamation idea is that it's stupid, just make divisional teams and completely copy the system if it's the way they want to go.

No issues with it tbh, once done the Junior Championship in Sligo will be hotly contested each year as the Intermediate is (The Senior is a bit lopsided, Tourlestrane by far the best team at the moment).

Up until now the Junior Championship would consist of about 3 first teams and a hodge podge of second teams from senior clubs making for some awful dire matches to watch and not testing a club until they hit the Provincial stages.

easy peasy

bruschi wrote: »

There are 8 clubs in the Kerry senior championship and 16 in their intermediate from what I can see. So Junior is largely unaffected by divisional sides or diluting quality. And with 8 teams in senior, its 4 less than a lot of counties who play with 12, not a huge issue in the scheme of things. If other counties play with 16 or more, thats their issue, not Kerrys.

But it does become an issue when taken in the context of the All Ireland Championship. There is no point in comparing with Sligo because the population of Sligo is less than half of Kerry.

Compare say with Mayo - Mayo has 16 senior clubs, 16 intermediate clubs and the rest are junior. It makes no sense and there is no fairness in the intermediate champions of Mayo playing the intermediate champions of Kerry, its not a level playing field.

1. The Kerry players probably play senior championship with their divisional team;
2. The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are);
3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.

Taking all of this into consideration, along with the tradition in Kerry and the huge playing numbers. This makes a mockery of the All Ireland Intermediate Club Football Championship.

Kerry have a great divisional system in place and it has great merits, but it should not be imposed on other counties. Naomh Eanna and Easkey were embarrassed the last day because they were playing teams that are a level above them.

Finally, the population of Beaufort doesn't matter. If it did, Mullinalaghta should have been playing Beaufort the last day and not Crokes the next day.

keane2097

Beaufort's population was posted in response to someone saying that the idea of the junior competition is for small clubs to be able to win and that Kerry's system makes a mockery of it.

keane2097

And again, just to point out - the divisional teams have no impact on Beaufort's positioning in junior, intermediate or senior.

You move up a grade if you win your championship, the divisional teams have no connection to the process whatsoever.

Boom__Boom

easy peasy wrote: »

Kerry have a great divisional system in place and it has great merits, but it should not be imposed on other counties. .

Kerry are absolutely fine if other counties want to keep using inferior structures for their county championship - Kerry have no interest in the world in imposing them on anyone.

However it does get tiresome when people from other counties moan about this every year but do absolutely nothing in terms of rectifying it.

From a Kerryman's point of view it's like someone turning up to a game of snooker and complaining that the opposition haven't tied one hand behind their back and then continuing to complain when told that there is no rule about actually have to tie your hand behind your back but still continuing to turn up every year with one hand tied behind their back, when the obvious solution of untying their hand continues to be ignored.

cms88

Why is this only an issue when it comes to Kerry? In hurling Kilkenny clubs have won six Intermediate and eight Junior titles yet nothing is said about it? Even in Leinster they've won eleven in Intermediate and and fourteen in Junior. Yet again not a word

Duffryman

Kilkenny has 12 senior hurling clubs. So their intermediate champions can be regarded as the 13th best club in the county.

Kerry only has 8 senior football clubs. So their intermediate champions are basically the 9th best.

This answer might not satisfy you, but it's worth pointing out all the same.

TrueGael

12+12=24, 8+16=24

The KK side were 1/66 to win , the Kerry sides were 1/2 and 8/13

If other counties are happy to have ridiculously high amounts of Senior clubs most of which haven't a prayer of winning that is their business - we aren't going change a superior system just because

Duffryman

TrueGael wrote: »

we aren't going change a superior system just because

Just because what?

I'm not asking Kerry to change anything. I was just pointing out something I thought relevant to one aspect of what was asked.

By the way, you obviously feel strongly that having district teams (or divisional teams...call 'em what you will) in the senior championship is a good thing. I'm genuinely curious about certain aspects of how this operates, as it's an idea that gets floated from time to time here in Wexford, without ever gathering much momentum.

I started a new thread on it because I thought it would be worth discussing separately. It's at https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057955069

Would you think about having a look and filling me in on some of the things I ask about?

An Ciarraioch

Moreover, there is no connection between the club championships and county leagues, as occurs in some counties. Na Gaeil, for instance, have risen up the league pyramid, and will play in Division One in 2019, yet because they keep losing championship finals, they remain in Premier Junior.

bruschi

easy peasy wrote: »

But it does become an issue when taken in the context of the All Ireland Championship. There is no point in comparing with Sligo because the population of Sligo is less than half of Kerry.

Compare say with Mayo - Mayo has 16 senior clubs, 16 intermediate clubs and the rest are junior. It makes no sense and there is no fairness in the intermediate champions of Mayo playing the intermediate champions of Kerry, its not a level playing field.

1. The Kerry players probably play senior championship with their divisional team;
2. The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are);
3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.

Taking all of this into consideration, along with the tradition in Kerry and the huge playing numbers. This makes a mockery of the All Ireland Intermediate Club Football Championship.

Kerry have a great divisional system in place and it has great merits, but it should not be imposed on other counties. Naomh Eanna and Easkey were embarrassed the last day because they were playing teams that are a level above them.

Finally, the population of Beaufort doesn't matter. If it did, Mullinalaghta should have been playing Beaufort the last day and not Crokes the next day.

couple of points on this.

If Mayo play 16 in senior and 16 in intermediate, thats their structure. What do you want Kerry to do about it? Other counties have 12 and 12 set ups. If Mayo cant compete at Junior with their 33rd best team against another counties 25th best team, should all the other counties change their structure to suit Mayo? Yeah it may not equate to being as fair as can be, but everyone knows the format.

"the Kerry players play senior championship".
Some do, most dont. If they all did, then it wouldnt be a divisional side. Again, this promotes football in Kerry and allows junior players play at a higher grade. Kerry get the best out of every corner in the county. Sean O Sullivan and Donncadh Walsh play for Cromane in the lowest level of Kerry football, but yet both got to be regulars and multiple all ireland winners. Are there many other counties who have junior B players being mainstays on their county teams?

" The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are)"
I'm not sure why this makes any difference. There are senior teams in Kerry in Division 2. League and championship dont intertwine like the vast majority of counties. League is a means to keep players playing, mostly without county players being present, hence why some clubs do better as they wouldnt be missing their top men if they arent on county teams.


3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.
Thats true. And they could be up against another counties 13th best team. Not exactly the fairest set up, but again, should Kerry be penalised for it?


Realistically, Kerry should only worry about themselves. I greatly admire their divisional representation and how lower grade players will get opportunities to play at the highest level in the county. It affords a player to play at the highest level but not having to leave his club.

easy peasy

bruschi wrote: »

couple of points on this.

If Mayo play 16 in senior and 16 in intermediate, thats their structure. What do you want Kerry to do about it? Other counties have 12 and 12 set ups. If Mayo cant compete at Junior with their 33rd best team against another counties 25th best team, should all the other counties change their structure to suit Mayo? Yeah it may not equate to being as fair as can be, but everyone knows the format.

"the Kerry players play senior championship".
Some do, most dont. If they all did, then it wouldnt be a divisional side. Again, this promotes football in Kerry and allows junior players play at a higher grade. Kerry get the best out of every corner in the county. Sean O Sullivan and Donncadh Walsh play for Cromane in the lowest level of Kerry football, but yet both got to be regulars and multiple all ireland winners. Are there many other counties who have junior B players being mainstays on their county teams?

" The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are)"
I'm not sure why this makes any difference. There are senior teams in Kerry in Division 2. League and championship dont intertwine like the vast majority of counties. League is a means to keep players playing, mostly without county players being present, hence why some clubs do better as they wouldnt be missing their top men if they arent on county teams.


3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.
Thats true. And they could be up against another counties 13th best team. Not exactly the fairest set up, but again, should Kerry be penalised for it?


Realistically, Kerry should only worry about themselves. I greatly admire their divisional representation and how lower grade players will get opportunities to play at the highest level in the county. It affords a player to play at the highest level but not having to leave his club.

I have no issues with how Kerry run their championships and fair play, it obviously works but I do have an issue with teams that are clearly too strong for the All Ireland Junior and Intermediate Championships taking part and hammering teams every year. Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

If you can't see the mockery this makes of these competitions, then fair enough but I suggest you maybe take the head out of the sand a little on this. The main point is that Kerry, with their population and strong football tradition should not be sending their 9th best club to take part in the intermediate championship. No county with a similar population as Kerry does this, hence why Kerry dominate.

An Ciarraioch

easy peasy wrote: »

I have no issues with how Kerry run their championships and fair play, it obviously works but I do have an issue with teams that are clearly too strong for the All Ireland Junior and Intermediate Championships taking part and hammering teams every year. Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

If you can't see the mockery this makes of these competitions, then fair enough but I suggest you maybe take the head out of the sand a little on this. The main point is that Kerry, with their population and strong football tradition should not be sending their 9th best club to take part in the intermediate championship. No county with a similar population as Kerry does this, hence why Kerry dominate.

In relation to the Junior All-Ireland, the competition rules require a completely new squad to participate after a victory, so if other counties can't take advantage, they need to look at their internal structures. Another problem with the championship is a lack of interest in Ulster, with Cavan playing in Leinster as a result.

ciarriaithuaidh

easy peasy wrote: »

I have no issues with how Kerry run their championships and fair play, it obviously works but I do have an issue with teams that are clearly too strong for the All Ireland Junior and Intermediate Championships taking part and hammering teams every year. Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

If you can't see the mockery this makes of these competitions, then fair enough but I suggest you maybe take the head out of the sand a little on this. The main point is that Kerry, with their population and strong football tradition should not be sending their 9th best club to take part in the intermediate championship. No county with a similar population as Kerry does this, hence why Kerry dominate.

Ah here, if you drag that into the debate, forget about it! What has that got to do with the club structure? All that tells you is that other counties aren't taking the Junior Inter-county seriously when Kerry (minus all Senior panel and ALL Junior panel from year previous) can win each year.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned or if you've realised this, but Beaufort won their semi-final by 12-10. (Kilcummin won their Intermediate Semi 11-10 also btw!). You seem to just be looking at finals when judging competitions as a whole.
Dromtarriffe from Cork took Beaufort to extra time back in December and they play in the FOURTH TIER of Cork football, i.e: number 55 in club pecking order.

Kerry clubs have a good record at Junior level because even the lowest clubs in Kerry take preparation very seriously and play in a well structured County League competition, County Championship AND divisional championship - which allows them to have a cut off teams a level or 2 above them. They are the main reasons for the trend, not some "unfair advantage".

An Ciarraioch

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Ah here, if you drag that into the debate, forget about it! What has that got to do with the club structure? All that tells you is that other counties aren't taking the Junior Inter-county seriously when Kerry (minus all Senior panel and ALL Junior panel from year previous) can win each year.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned or if you've realised this, but Beaufort won their semi-final by 12-10. (Kilcummin won their Intermediate Semi 11-10 also btw!). You seem to just be looking at finals when judging competitions as a whole.
Dromtarriffe from Cork took Beaufort to extra time back in December and they play in the FOURTH TIER of Cork football, i.e: number 55 in club pecking order.

Kerry clubs have a good record at Junior level because even the lowest clubs in Kerry take preparation very seriously and play in a well structured County League competition, County Championship AND divisional championship - which allows them to have a cut off teams a level or 2 above them. They are the main reasons for the trend, not some "unfair advantage".

Yes, the County Board have been excellent in running the fixtures calendar - club championships done and dusted in April, county leagues run off during the summer, with the senior championship following after the All-Ireland.

Poor_old_gill

easy peasy wrote: »

I have no issues with how Kerry run their championships and fair play, it obviously works but I do have an issue with teams that are clearly too strong for the All Ireland Junior and Intermediate Championships taking part and hammering teams every year. Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

If you can't see the mockery this makes of these competitions, then fair enough but I suggest you maybe take the head out of the sand a little on this. The main point is that Kerry, with their population and strong football tradition should not be sending their 9th best club to take part in the intermediate championship. No county with a similar population as Kerry does this, hence why Kerry dominate.

Beaufort hammered the Sligo team in the final but had a lot of very tight matches along the way.
They only beat a Division 5 team(bottom div in Kerry) after extra time in the semi final of the Kerry Junior Champ.

Maybe the Sligo team just werent very good

Utopia Parkway

bruschi wrote: »

couple of points on this.

If Mayo play 16 in senior and 16 in intermediate, thats their structure. What do you want Kerry to do about it? Other counties have 12 and 12 set ups. If Mayo cant compete at Junior with their 33rd best team against another counties 25th best team, should all the other counties change their structure to suit Mayo? Yeah it may not equate to being as fair as can be, but everyone knows the format.

"the Kerry players play senior championship".
Some do, most dont. If they all did, then it wouldnt be a divisional side. Again, this promotes football in Kerry and allows junior players play at a higher grade. Kerry get the best out of every corner in the county. Sean O Sullivan and Donncadh Walsh play for Cromane in the lowest level of Kerry football, but yet both got to be regulars and multiple all ireland winners. Are there many other counties who have junior B players being mainstays on their county teams?

" The Kerry players are probably in Division 1 of their league (as Kilcummin are)"
I'm not sure why this makes any difference. There are senior teams in Kerry in Division 2. League and championship dont intertwine like the vast majority of counties. League is a means to keep players playing, mostly without county players being present, hence why some clubs do better as they wouldnt be missing their top men if they arent on county teams.


3. The Kerry Intermediate Champions are the 9th best "club" team in Kerry.
Thats true. And they could be up against another counties 13th best team. Not exactly the fairest set up, but again, should Kerry be penalised for it?

Kilcummin would basically be a mid level senior team in most if not all other similar sized counties to Kerry. They are not really an intermediate side. Mayo have 16 senior clubs. Until last year Galway had 20. That's a huge difference.

I don't think anyone is asking for Kerry to change their own internal system but when they play outside Kerry in Munster and the All-Ireland series they have a big advantage as they are often playing sides that in reality are a level below them. How this is fixed? I'm not really sure.

Boom__Boom

easy peasy wrote: »

Its not just club, Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All Irelands too.

This is a bit of a red herring as regards the Junior Intercounty All-Ireland.

All counties bar a handful can pick players from Senior Clubs to play Junior Intercounty (as long as the players in question haven't played senior intercounty in the current or previous year) so the fact that there is a smaller number of clubs at senior only gives the Kerry advantage over 4 counties (Cork, Mayo, Galway and Meath) [The rule applies to Dublin too but they stopped competing a few years back]

The reason that Kerry have won the last 4 Junior All-Ireland is that the county board said they would be using it partly as a development squad for lads who might be potential seniors in the future. Looking at the squad list for the Dublin game I make it 7 out of the 26 who have lined out for the Kerry Juniors previously. Looking at the lads in the 26 who have never lined out with the seniors, it was the case that a) they were prevented by doing so because of their club's status or b) they were pretty much called into the seniors straight away (the likes of Dara Moynihan)

Over the last few years I would say that there is probably somewhere of the order of 20 players from the 4 Junior winning teams who have had some involvement with the Kerry seniors.

Also given the the age profile of these 4 in a row winning Junior teams I would be very surprised if a few more don't go on to have some involvement with the seniors before long.

The county board have treated the competition seriously and put decent management teams in place. Players have definitely come on board in terms of seeing it as a possible pathway to the seniors (a serious chunk of the eligible All-Ireland minor winning players have been involved with these teams) and Kerry have been rewarded with silverware and in terms of player development.

Anyone who think that the grading of clubs is the main reason Kerry have won 4 Junior All-Irelands in a row is well wide of the mark imo. The reason is that Kerry have been taking the competition more serious than they ever did (going back a few years, it wasn't taken as seriously and the home clubs of selectors definitely were over-represented), while at the same time a whole swathe of counties are taking it less seriously than they ever had.