How can someone in their 30s afford a house - PLEASE READ MOD WARNING IN OP

devlinio

Why was my comment on programming wages deleted?

Yurt2

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ok.

For dual income it is (as distinct from the two per head of household at work figures). 'Earning household' you can take as a semantic slip on the keyboard

Interested Observer

Yurt! wrote: »

For dual income it is (as distinct from the two per head of household at work figures). 'Earning household' you can take as a semantic slip on the keyboard

I'll take it as you talking absolute rubbish.

Yurt2

2015 the median for full time workers was 32k gross. 4 year old figures I know, but I'd severely doubt that it now approaches your suggested 42k figure. Particularly when two salaried households will be claiming a host of tax reliefs and social transfers.

For reference, the *average* FT figure was 45k (CSO) in 2015.

So conditions haven't changed all that much.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861%3fmode=amp

Tar.Aldarion

Yurt! wrote: »

No grad on God's green earth walks out of uni into Google Dublin on 90k. Even in San Francisco a junior developer likely wouldn't start on 90 (dollar amount).

cintec wrote: »

A lot of companies like Google and Facebook give stock options so base salary may not be 90k but when the entire benefit package is considered 90k is not a million miles away.

Yes, this is it, shares. I work in the area. Offers including stock this year were over 90k. Here is an example of an offer this year at Google: Salary : €67k (Total Comp : €93k). The also get raises twice a year, at least in the London office where I am more familiar.

In the US they do earn more than 90K in San Francisco, that would be considered low for a lot of companies. A small startup might be 70k-90k, but that is intern wage at a bigger company and a grad would make 120k+. There are 180,000 millionaires in the bay area.

Similar high prices in Zurich where after a few years people are known to save €100k a year, let alone just earn it!

However here in Ireland, apart from the big 4, salaries are lower in general and more in line with other professions.

Yurt2

The Nevin Economic Research Institute has the median gross wage for a 24-35 year old workers at 31k in 2018 and over 35s at a median of 37k.

Both significantly below 'average' wage of 47k and your speculative median of 42k.

The report itself is worth a read as it talks about housing affordability in the context of median wage (there has to be a reason why economists use the median as a barometer right?!?)

Anyway there are your figures. Have them with a sprinkling of whatever dressing you like yourself.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nerinstitute.net/download/pdf/20180105115417.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiU8ffy_sLgAhW0rHEKHV2vA5YQFjABegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3dDMfCwnXOcstDpVtJJKZr

Conclusion from actual economists and not wafflers:

"Given the widely recognized affordability ratio of 30% of disposable income, the data shows
that for a majority of workers renting a minimally adequate unit, as set out in the paper, in
most areas in Dublin is ‘unaffordable’ and getting more ‘unaffordable’. This is especially the case for single earners renting a one-bedroom apartment and two earners renting anything
with three bedrooms and above. The data also show that most individual wage earners in
Ireland would not meet the criteria to successfully apply for a mortgage for a one-bed
apartment anywhere in Dublin and similarly, that two employees in the middle of the wage
distribution are priced out of the market for three-bedroom semi-d’s in Dublin given central
bank rules on lending."

I think we’ve answered the OP now at least. Get a job with an above average salary. 50k a year should put you in the market for properties around 200k. There’ll be some apartments out there just about within your reach.

If it’s a house you want, 60k a year might open up some possibilities in very rural locations.

70k a year might bring you back to greater Dublin or some less desirable areas in Dublin.

Yurt2

Further to the above: NERI has the median at 34k gross across all age cohorts over 25. Exactly what I speculated it to be pages ago. We can put that rest at least.

corcaigh1

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

Can be done

I’m a lone parent, work full time and secured a mortgage and sale agreed on an apartment

Location: Co.Longford

Graham

Yurt! wrote: »

Further to the above: NERI has the median at 34k gross across all age cohorts over 25. Exactly what I speculated it to be pages ago. We can put that rest at least.

Would that be this NERI?

NERI is a new all-Ireland trade-union supported think-tank on economic policy

Yurt2

Graham wrote: »

Would that be this NERI?

NERI is a new all-Ireland trade-union supported think-tank on economic policy

If you want to dispute its conclusions, dispute its conclusions.

Graham

Yurt! wrote: »

If you want to dispute its conclusions, dispute its conclusions.

Just asking the question is all, it's always interesting to see who is financing the conclusions.

Interested Observer

Yurt! wrote: »

Further to the above: NERI has the median at 34k gross across all age cohorts over 25. Exactly what I speculated it to be pages ago. We can put that rest at least.

note: the median wage is for all employees who identify as ‘at work’, both part-time and full-time

Nope.

Yurt2

Interested Observer wrote: »

Nope.

Take it how you want to take it, I never presented the NERI figures as exclusively full-time. That's the median for workers in Ireland as calculated by a professional economist. You're the one shifting things around. You speculated 42k earlier and you were way off the mark , care to retract?

The 2015 figures are presented as full time (32k figure from the IT). Want to dispute that figure as well?

limnam

Yurt! wrote: »

Take it how you want to take it, I never presented the NERI figures as exclusively full-time. That's the median for workers in Ireland as calculated by a professional economist. You're the one shifting things around. You speculated 42k earlier and you were way off the mark , care to retract?

The 2015 figures are presented as full time (32k figure from the IT). Want to dispute that figure as well?

From IE in 2017 it had average full time at 45.5kish


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/this-is-the-average-full-time-wage-in-ireland-795670.html

Yurt2

limnam wrote: »

From IE in 2017 it had average full time at 45.5kish


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/this-is-the-average-full-time-wage-in-ireland-795670.html

That's the average once again, not the median.

limnam

Yurt! wrote: »

That's the average once again, not the median.

Which is what Interested Observer was discussing, so why would he retract it ?

Yurt2

limnam wrote: »

Which is what Interested Observer was discussing, so why would he retract it ?

There was a dispute as to what the median is. The average is published by the CSO regularly and is there for all to see. The average was being wheeled out as evidence that people are moaners and that housing is affordable. The average isn't a useful metric for housing affordability as the bulk of earners are clustered +- a few % around the median and not the average (skewed as they are by the much lower numbers of high earners in the economy), the median is (inevitably) much lower than the average. Nobody is really worried about high earners' ability to put a roof over their head, that's inevitable in every economy. The choke point is in the around the middle value and below, as best represented by the median.

The best figures appear to be the NERI ones, as they would represent the circumstances of most middle earners in the economy.

Irish_rat

OP you need to save and upskill basically, it wont appear magically for you.

Also coming from a home with low income I know the importance of saving. From my mid to late 20's went on multiple holidays, festivals and was out partying probably 4-5 nights a week as you do.

Now though that has left the system I have a mortgage on my own in my 30's but the small savings every year helped along the way. I'm actually saving again as knocking off the big interest early would help.

GreeBo

A lot of "facts" being bandied about that are incorrect.

The CSO does publish median salaries, what they dont publish are median household incomes by region.

Comparing median or average incomes for the whole of Ireland when talking about buying in Dublin is pointless, why not include Jamaica while you are at it.

Also, it wouldn't matter if Mr Zuckerburg was Tax resident in Ireland, the CSO excludes people like him.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861

2015 IT Article wrote:

This Central Statistics Office (CSO) data does not include many of the highest paid, eg many sole practitioners, doctors, accountants or solicitors in partnerships, nor the incomes – including gains made – of the very wealthy.

The data also includes the 450,000 part-time workers and is based on an average working week of 32 hours. Full-timer workers on 36 hours would have average incomes of about €40,000.

A more useful figure than the average would be median earnings – the amount earned by those right in the middle of all earners. The average is skewed upwards because a smaller number earn a great deal more than that earned by the majority of people.

Median earnings are estimated at €28,500 last year for all those at work. So half of those at work – 964,000 people – earned less than €28,500 and half earned more. For full-time workers, median earnings were estimated at €32,000 in gross income

GreeBo

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

That the original point of a deposit was to prove you could afford your mortgage and weren't a risk to the bank. Most people who are renting are paying more every month to rent than they'd pay for a mortgage. Most people on average salaries can't afford to spend 35+% of their take-home pay on rent and then put that again into savings. If you're spending 600+ euro a month on food, you've got issues.

Was it?
Are you sure it wasn't so the banks would have some guaranteed equity in the property to cover the loan, despite any downturn in prices?

GreeBo

If you are in the market to buy a house, specifically a house, in Dublin, then you are up against families with more than 1 income or 1 large income.
Thats just a reality.

There is no point arguing about the median an individual across the whole country earns, as those people are not, on their own at least, going to be buying a house in Dublin.

Someone made a snide comment about Longford above....why exactly? There is no mention of Dublin in the thread title, its a few entitled posters who seem to think living in a nice area in Dublin should be possible for the median single person.

Yurt2

GreeBo wrote: »

A lot of "facts" being bandied about that are incorrect.

The CSO does publish median salaries, what they dont publish are median household incomes by region.

Comparing median or average incomes for the whole of Ireland when talking about buying in Dublin is pointless, why not include Jamaica while you are at it.

Also, it wouldn't matter if Mr Zuckerburg was Tax resident in Ireland, the CSO excludes people like him.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861

As the Donald might say: WRONG



The CSO doesn't publish the annual median salary. You're welcome to try and fetch it, but it aint there. but the 32k median figure for FT workers above was produced by the TASC economist who wrote the article.

Lefty Bicek

GreeBo wrote: »

If you are in the market to buy a house, specifically a house, in Dublin, then you are up against families with more than 1 income or 1 large income.
Thats just a reality.

There is no point arguing about the median an individual across the whole country earns, as those people are not, on their own at least, going to be buying a house in Dublin.

Someone made a snide comment about Longford above....why exactly? There is no mention of Dublin in the thread title, its a few entitled posters who seem to think living in a nice area in Dublin should be possible for the median single person.

Absolutely, in a nutshell.

Yurt2

Lol Greebo. I just saw your thread where you're getting clowned by an estate agent bidding on a house. And you're here trying to argue all is well with the property market. The market is a circus, and you know what role you play (hint, it's not the ringmaster).

Interested Observer

Yurt! wrote: »

As the Donald might say: WRONG



The CSO doesn't publish the annual median salary. You're welcome to try and fetch it, but it aint there. but the 32k median figure for FT workers above was produced by the TASC economist who wrote the article.

So the FT figure from TASC (anther trade union mouthpiece) is lower than the FT+PT figure from NERI? Sounds like at least one of them is a bit off the rails. It also seems like that 32k figure has been derived from CSO figures despite the fact they don't do the median, and the article is 4 years old.

Graham

Mod Note

Yurt!, as you appear incapable of posting without getting personal. Do not post in the thread again.

GreeBo

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-syi/psyi2017/econ/earn/

Median earnings

handlemaster

so what is the consensus, can someone buy or not in their thirties ?I think alot of people think housing should be easy to get , with little work or savings

Geuze

Yurt! wrote: »

2015 the median for full time workers was 32k gross. 4 year old figures I know, but I'd severely doubt that it now approaches your suggested 42k figure. Particularly when two salaried households will be claiming a host of tax reliefs and social transfers.

For reference, the *average* FT figure was 45k (CSO) in 2015.

So conditions haven't changed all that much.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861%3fmode=amp

Yurt,

note that a few years ago somebody wrote an article in the IT saying that median earnings were 28k. I didn't believe it.

It's a pity the CSO don't publish median earnings.

But Eurostat do.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database


Median earnings from the 2014 SES are in Eurostat, just hard to find.

2014 median earnings = 41,829 for FT workers.

That is in "Industry, construction and services (except public administration, defense, compulsory social security)"


EDIT: Yurt, I see now that the IT article I am thinking of is the one you linked to. There is no evidence to support this statement in the article:

Median earnings are estimated at €28,500 last year for all those at work.