Job Offer - some strange T&Cs

infidell

I've been offered a new job in a tech company, similar to my current job, but offering an extra €5k.

I've all but accepted at this point and they just sent me the official contract. There are a few things giving me second thoughts:

1. 45 minute lunch break - I've never heard of anything other than an hour.

2. 21 days annual leave - seems a bit low, I'd be loosing a couple of days.

3. The pension contribution only kicks in after the 6 month probation period has passed.

These are obviously small things, but I'm worried they are an indication of the culture in the company.

Is this standard stuff or am I right to be concerned?

duffman13

infidell wrote: »

I've been offered a new job in a tech company, similar to my current job, but offering an extra €5k.

I've all but accepted at this point and they just sent me the official contract. There are a few things giving me second thoughts:

1. 45 minute lunch break - I've never heard of anything other than an hour.

2. 21 days annual leave - seems a bit low, I'd be loosing a couple of days.

3. The pension contribution only kicks in after the 6 month probation period has passed.

These are obviously small things, but I'm worried they are an indication of the culture in the company.

Is this standard stuff or am I right to be concerned?

Depends really, holidays there are statutory and usually something I'd ask about in interview.

Pension thing isn't unusual in terms of them contributing till your permanent.

Lunch break again varies, will you now be working additional hours on what you are at the moment as a result of 45 min lunches ie 15 mins each day?

Your extra 5k might be a bit less than 5k when you consider less holidays and longer hours (If that is the case)

Spook_ie

Is the holiday not plus Bank holidays?

infidell

duffman13 wrote: »

Depends really, holidays there are statutory and usually something I'd ask about in interview.

Pension thing isn't unusual in terms of them contributing till your permanent.

Lunch break again varies, will you now be working additional hours on what you are at the moment as a result of 45 min lunches ie 15 mins each day?

Your extra 5k might be a bit less than 5k when you consider less holidays and longer hours (If that is the case)

Thanks for the reply.
The hours are a bit more overall, 1.5hrs / week.

There are a couple of other things as well e.g stricter dress code.
I guess I'll just have to decide if the sacrifices are worth the extra few hundred a month - probably not.

infidell

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is the holiday not plus Bank holidays?

Yes, 21 plus BH.
I have 23 plus BH at the moment, that's pretty standard from what I've seen.

mcgucc22

None of that stuff would concern me, pension usually kicks in after being made permanent, 21 days is pretty average and 45 min lunch break is longer than a lot of people get. Can't see how this would be an indication of the culture of the company. But if it was me and I was happy in my current job, I don't think I'd move somewhere new that I was apprehensive about for 5 k extra

mickdw

Try the construction business. Barely time to grab a sandwich during half hour lunch then do 8 to 6 plus expected regular late evenings.

infidell

mcgucc22 wrote: »

None of that stuff would concern me, pension usually kicks in after being made permanent, 21 days is pretty average and 45 min lunch break is longer than a lot of people get. Can't see how this would be an indication of the culture of the company. If it was me and I was happy in my current job, I don't think I'd move somewhere new that I was apprehensive about for 5 k extra

You're probably right that 5k isn't worth leaving my current job.

Do you have any example of companies that have 45 min or less lunch breaks? I've never heard of any tech companies or standard office type jobs that have less than an hour.

infidell

mickdw wrote: »

Try the construction business. Barely time to grab a sandwich during half hour lunch then do 8 to 6 plus expected regular late evenings.

Exactly why I went for tech.

Hoboo

infidell wrote: »

You're probably right that 5k isn't worth leaving my current job.

Do you have any example of companies that have 45 min or less lunch breaks? I've never heard of any tech companies or standard office type jobs that have less than an hour.

What are your hours of work, and what other breaks do you get?

infidell

Hoboo wrote: »

What are your hours of work, and what other breaks do you get?

Currently 9am to 5.30pm Mon-Fri
1 hour lunch break and two 10min coffee breaks.

Franz Von Peppercorn

infidell wrote: »

You're probably right that 5k isn't worth leaving my current job.

Do you have any example of companies that have 45 min or less lunch breaks? I've never heard of any tech companies or standard office type jobs that have less than an hour.

I doubt anybody is enforcing anything on this. Many office workers eat at their desks.

What’s the standard hours of work? Maybe they dropped 15 minutes from lunch to facilitate a shorter standard working day.

Hoboo

Btw, you'll only see 2.5k after tax, a tenner a day. Is 1.5 hours extra a day, less holidays, shorter lunch, no pension for 6 months and a new wardrobe worth a tenner a day? The 1.5 hours extra isn't worth a tenner.

Franz Von Peppercorn

infidell wrote: »

Currently 9am to 5.30pm Mon-Fri
1 hour lunch break and two 10min coffee breaks.

That’s 36 hours a week. Nice place. Why leave?


But did you have to be there at those times? Any flexibility? Given the two 10 minute coffee breaks probably not, right?

Hoboo

infidell wrote: »

Currently 9am to 5.30pm Mon-Fri
1 hour lunch break and two 10min coffee breaks.

Sorry I meant your new hours and breaks

infidell

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You have to be there at those times? Any flexibility?

No flexibility in terms of office hours, but if I need to take a longer lunch every now and then, I can just make it up no questions asked.

infidell

Hoboo wrote: »

Sorry I meant your new hours and breaks

New place is 9am - 4pm required and then make it up to 39h per week.
45 minute lunch break, not included in the 39h.
No other official breaks.

infidell

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s 36 hours a week. Nice place. Why leave?


But did you have to be there at those times? Any flexibility? Given the two 10 minute coffee breaks probably not, right?

Exactly my dilemma, it's a cushy number, but I currently get paid accordingly. The extra 5k from the new place would only bring me up to the industry standard for my position/experience.

the_syco

infidell wrote: »

The hours are a bit more overall, 1.5hrs / week.

15 minutes less lunch + what you see as an extra 1.5 hours to your current day seems to mean an extra 1.75 hours.

1.75 * 49 (52 weeks minus the 21 days holiday) = 58.75 hours.

Multiply this by what your hourly rate works out to, and see how much the final figure compares to what your 5k is after tax. And you'll then get an idea of how much extra you're actually getting.

If you were on €15 an hour, 58.75 * 15 would be €881.25

So, if you were on €45k a year, net would be €34,212
Getting an extra €5 to €50, net would be €36,787

€34,212 from €36,787 = €2,575 would be what the 5k is after tax if you'll earning 50k a year
Minus the €881.25 above, and your left with €1,693.75

So, after taking into account how much extra you'll get from the extra hours you'll be working, €1,693.75 is how much extra you get.

Take the above figures with a pinch of salt, but you'll be working more hours, stricter dress code, all for maybe only €1,693.75 extra.

/edit; new info got added to the thread since I started writing this, so figures are probably off.

infidell

Thanks everyone for the input.

Decision made - I'm staying put for now.

Spook_ie

infidell wrote: »

Yes, 21 plus BH.
I have 23 plus BH at the moment, that's pretty standard from what I've seen.

Some companies start with 20 days and add a day every now and then as you stay with the company, do they increase with length of service?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Important to ask with a 45 minute lunch how far are you from lunch amenities.

Ie if you want to go to the nearest deli and its a ten minute walk. Five minute wait to get your food and five minute wait to pay your 45 minute lunch is gone very quickly.

devlinio

mickdw wrote: »

Try the construction business. Barely time to grab a sandwich during half hour lunch then do 8 to 6 plus expected regular late evenings.

You're with the wrong company then. My dad is a partner in a construction company, hours are 7:30 to 3:30. 30 minutes for lunch. The company is making mad money.

devlinio

devlinio wrote: »

You're with the wrong company then. My dad is a partner in a construction company, hours are 7:30 to 3:30. 30 minutes for lunch. The company is making mad money.

I'd agree with you devlinio.

Phileas Frog

infidell wrote: »

1. 45 minute lunch break - I've never heard of anything other than an hour.

2. 21 days annual leave - seems a bit low, I'd be loosing a couple of days.

3. The pension contribution only kicks in after the 6 month probation period has passed.

You've led a very sheltered life so...

1. 30 minutes is statutory and the norm in a lot of companies.

2. 20 is statutory, and again the norm in a lot of companies.

3. Again, the norm everywhere.

klm1

Phileas Frog wrote: »

You've led a very sheltered life so...

1. 30 minutes is statutory and the norm in a lot of companies.

2. 20 is statutory, and again the norm in a lot of companies.

3. Again, the norm everywhere.

Phileas is correct. I work in HR and draw up employment contracts all the time.
45mins is the norm. Any more than that is a bonus. Do you really need more than that if you're finishing work at 4pm?
21days is standard, anything above that is a bonus and is usually worked up to with years of service.
Pension kicking in after Probation is absolutely standard.

Think back to what made you start looking at other job options. I see a lot of people in the recruitment process that are initially gung ho for a move but once it gets down to the nitty gritty, they forget the reasons they wanted to leave.

if you have questions regarding the T's and C's, go back to the company and raise those issues. You would be walking away from a great opportunity, based on whats written in a contract, even though there may be some wiggle room.

As others have pointed out, 5k isn't a huge increase, but think on it this way.
If you're on 45k now and move to a new role offering your 50k. You're now firmly in the 50k wage bracket. Any move in the future is going to bump you into the mid 50's. The prevailing thought here seems to be that it's not worth moving for 5k. If that's the case, at what point does it suddenly become worth moving? Companies won't normally boost someone by 10k in one go.

_Brian

infidell wrote: »

I've been offered a new job in a tech company, similar to my current job, but offering an extra €5k.

I've all but accepted at this point and they just sent me the official contract. There are a few things giving me second thoughts:

1. 45 minute lunch break - I've never heard of anything other than an hour.

2. 21 days annual leave - seems a bit low, I'd be loosing a couple of days.

3. The pension contribution only kicks in after the 6 month probation period has passed.

These are obviously small things, but I'm worried they are an indication of the culture in the company.

Is this standard stuff or am I right to be concerned?

Far as I can see this company are offering terms that just meet the minimum possible standards.

There’s nothing wrong with that, but just think about it, is this going to reflect their attitude going forward ?? Just doing the minimum for employees to meet the law.

ted1

are you sure that they don't offer company days like Good Friday and at a Christmas which will give you extra days off, does the 21 days increase in 1 or 2 years? is the pension contribution the same? any free food?

which one offers the best opportunity to develop?

tomred1

Did you not speak with he company to see if these terms were negotiable?

witchgirl26

infidell wrote: »

1. 45 minute lunch break - I've never heard of anything other than an hour.

2. 21 days annual leave - seems a bit low, I'd be loosing a couple of days.

3. The pension contribution only kicks in after the 6 month probation period has passed.

These are obviously small things, but I'm worried they are an indication of the culture in the company.

Is this standard stuff or am I right to be concerned?

It's fairly standard. My previous work place was 9am - 5pm with a 30min lunch and 1 other 15 min break. Most places will offer 20 days annual leave but this can increase over the course of your time there. It's still 4 weeks off at the end of the day plus bank holidays.

As for the pension - I had this in my contract but they waved it for me and allowed me to join the pension straight away. However they have it in probably because the probation period is 6 months and they don't want to set someone up in the pension scheme only for them not to pass probation and have to take them off it again.

_Brian wrote: »

Far as I can see this company are offering terms that just meet the minimum possible standards.

There’s nothing wrong with that, but just think about it, is this going to reflect their attitude going forward ?? Just doing the minimum for employees to meet the law.

I don't think it does really. My current role officially had 2 out of the 3 of them (an hour long lunch was the only difference) and it's a much better culture and attitude towards employees in other ways than my previous company that had more holidays and instant pension entitlement.

KingCong

Not allowing you to join the pension scheme until the probation is complete seems to be very common, though if your current company contributes to one then the new company not paying into it for 6 months is a financial loss to you and should be factored into your decision on whether the new salary is worth it. Maybe go back to them and ask that if you successfully complete your probation period that they then back pay the 6 months worth of their contributions to the pension.

I'd also try and negotiate up the salary, with the numbers you've provided I don't think it's worth the move unless you'd be working in some area with more opportunities for development/up-skilling etc.

huskerdu

All of the T&Cs listed are normal in a lot of places.

They should not be dealbreakers if you think the job move is the right one for you.

Neither should €5K ( unless you are on minimum wage).

What is the reason you want to move job ?
Is this a company you want to work for ?
Is the work interesting ?
Is there potential for career progression?
Is the commute longer / shorter ?



If you have a clear idea of the questions above, you will be in a much stringer position to decide if this (or any job move ) is right for you

BronsonTB

infidell wrote: »

Yes, 21 plus BH.
I have 23 plus BH at the moment, that's pretty standard from what I've seen.

20 is the min standard. Each company can vary from this, 23 is ok.

pc7

Could you tell your current employer about the offer and see if they would up your salary?

GreeBo

Unless your career prospects are guaranteed to be a lot better, why are you moving for only 5K more and worse benefits?

Tazz T

Don't reject the offer without asking for more first.

the_syco

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Important to ask with a 45 minute lunch how far are you from lunch amenities.

This. In HP Leixlip, Building 8 was about 10-15 minutes from the main canteen, if the mini-canteen doesn't have anything you want.

klm1 wrote: »

The prevailing thought here seems to be that it's not worth moving for 5k. If that's the case, at what point does it suddenly become worth moving? Companies won't normally boost someone by 10k in one go.

Same hours, but with more money, and perhaps better work.

For example, I've gone from 20k L1 telephone support to over 30k L2 deskside support, and the work I do now is a lot more interesting.

oopsies

Im in an office as a marketing assistant and we all (incl management) get a 30 min break, 20 days holidays and no pension!

I wanna work in IT!

jimmycrackcorm

Worth bearing in mind as regards pensions that you only get to keep any company contributing once you have completed two years.

youandme13

Try working 12 hour shifts with only a 30 minute break ahhh!! For a government body too

KingCong

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Worth bearing in mind as regards pensions that you only get to keep any company contributing once you have completed two years.

I could be wrong but I vaguely remember reading something about this not applying if you transfer over the pension from your old job to the new scheme.

OMM 0000

infidell wrote: »

1. 45 minute lunch break - I've never heard of anything other than an hour.

Massive red flag for a tech company.

Usually it's the opposite - no real limit on breaks, just get the work done.

Have you checked the company's reviews on Glassdoor?

witchgirl26

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Massive red flag for a tech company.

Usually it's the opposite - no real limit on breaks, just get the work done.

Have you checked the company's reviews on Glassdoor?

I wouldn't think so for a tech company. I worked for a massive global tech company and while the perception was for a free and easy lifestyle because it was tech, it was very much a clock watching kinda place. Lunch was 30 mins, break was 15mins and that was that.

OMM 0000

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I wouldn't think so for a tech company. I worked for a massive global tech company and while the perception was for a free and easy lifestyle because it was tech, it was very much a clock watching kinda place. Lunch was 30 mins, break was 15mins and that was that.

That's not normal though. (I'm in tech).

Although I'm biased as I'm in programming roles. I have no idea if other departments (marketing etc.) also have the same laid back attitude.

starbaby2003

I would show your current employer the contract and ask them to match the 5k. I would not leave a company you seem happy enough with for a very small amount of money, given the industry you are in. I disagree with others and think one hour lunch and 23 days starting is normal. The company not contributing to pension until probation is finished is standard though.

witchgirl26

OMM 0000 wrote: »

That's not normal though. (I'm in tech).

Although I'm biased as I'm in programming roles. I have no idea if other departments (marketing etc.) also have the same laid back attitude.

I was in the accounts side of things and defo no real laid back attitude to time. Now it did depend on teams slightly but I know quite a few people who were called up on being 5 mins late back from lunch. Sales guys and programming tended to have a lot more leeway.

Crock Rock

infidell wrote: »

1. 45 minute lunch break - I've never heard of anything other than an hour.

We get 30 minutes in an 8.5 hour day.

infidell wrote: »

I
2. 21 days annual leave - seems a bit low, I'd be loosing a couple of days.

That's what I get too, plus bank holidays. Same as my woman.

infidell wrote: »

3. The pension contribution only kicks in after the 6 month probation period has passed.

One year for us! There's nothing to stop you contributing yourself though (as I do). I'm in my job 4 months btw.

jimmycrackcorm

KingCong wrote:

I could be wrong but I vaguely remember reading something about this not applying if you transfer over the pension from your old job to the new scheme.

You can do that but only your own contributions in the first two years will transfer. Employer contributions which should make the bulk only go after two years