Driving licence - absolute farce of a system and 83,000 waiting

davetherave

Galbin wrote: »

And when you are doing the test they are indeed meant to give you 1 minute's warning so that you have time to do MSM.

As others have said, I'd be getting new instructors. No reference to 1 minute warning.


In giving directions the Tester should turn towards the applicant where possible, and should always state “where” before “what”, e.g. “at the next junction turn right.” All directions should be delivered in good time, and in a manner which can be clearly understood by the applicant. Additional directions should be given
where necessary, to avoid confusion.

The tester should say – “Now, you should drive in your normal manner. I will tell you in good time when to turn left or right, otherwise you follow the course of the road. If you have any doubts about my directions ask me to repeat or clarify them. You may start when you are ready”.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/ADI/RSA_Standards_Proced.pdf

?Cee?view

Galbin wrote: »

I wasn't avoiding hazards. And when you are doing the test they are indeed meant to give you 1 minute's warning so that you have time to do MSM. In real life, people do indeed do things like go past turns if the person giving them directions gives them at the very last moment. It's not rocket science and my test did violate their very own rule. Sadly, I did not know this at the time.

This is the sort of crap that testers have to put up with. How do people come up with these "rules"? :rolleyes:

Easiest to think of this in terms of miles per hour.

50kph is roughly 30 miles per hour.

60 miles per hours means you'll travel a mile in a minute.

So, at 30, you'll travel half a mile in a minute which is roughly 800 metres.

So you want directions 800 metres in advance? How the hell would that work in an urban area?

I'm sure it's against forum rules to be so blunt, but it seems you need this as you're still arguing the point, but you should change your attitude about blaming testers and others for breaking "rules" and try to engage some critical thinking.

Honestly the thing that makes me think that the system is unfit for purpose is the vastly differing pass/fails rates around the country.
It means that people are (obviously) being tested in different scenarios, based on location. It means that people are passing who would/should fail in other centres, under more intense driving environment.

J_R

Deleted User wrote: »

Honestly the thing that makes me think that the system is unfit for purpose is the vastly differing pass/fails rates around the country.
It means that people are (obviously) being tested in different scenarios, based on location. It means that people are passing who would/should fail in other centres, under more intense driving environment.

Hi,

From my own personnel experience I disagree. When I was an instructor in Sligo there was a large comprehensive report in a newspaper regarding Sligo having the highest pass rate in Ireland.

At the time I had a website which ranked very high in Google, consequently I was inundated with calls to book the car and do the test in Sligo. The vast majority of the callers were from Dublin.

I pointed out to all callers that irrespective of the pass rate if they were not up to test standard they would fail. I turned down all callers who only wanted one lesson before the test and of course the chancers who merely wanted the school car - no lessons.

I settled on just six who promised to take the necessary lessons, minimum of three. All six had sat the test numerous times in different centers in Dublin.

On the first lesson I found all six were nowhere near test standard and definitely had deserved to fail in their previous tests, no question whatsoever.

After a few lessons all five passed the test, the sixth, a French girl was unable to sit the test as her licence was out of date and we were unable to get it renewed in time.

At one time or another a remark all of them made was that "They did not realize there was so much into driving" or words to that effect. They had had "pretests" previously in preparation for their tests, so quite understandable.

Just my 2p.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

From my own personnel experience I disagree. When I was an instructor in Sligo there was a large comprehensive report in a newspaper regarding Sligo having the highest pass rate in Ireland.

At the time I had a website which ranked very high in Google, consequently I was inundated with calls to book the car and do the test in Sligo. The vast majority of the callers were from Dublin.

I pointed out to all callers that irrespective of the pass rate if they were not up to test standard they would fail. I turned down all callers who only wanted one lesson before the test and of course the chancers who merely wanted the school car - no lessons.

I settled on just six who promised to take the necessary lessons, minimum of three. All six had sat the test numerous times in different centers in Dublin.

On the first lesson I found all six were nowhere near test standard and definitely had deserved to fail in their previous tests, no question whatsoever.

After a few lessons all five passed the test, the sixth, a French girl was unable to sit the test as her licence was out of date and we were unable to get it renewed in time.

At one time or another a remark all of them made was that "They did not realize there was so much into driving" or words to that effect. They had had "pretests" previously in preparation for their tests, so quite understandable.

Just my 2p.

Excellent piece.

Sat tests in Dublin,Limerick & Cork myself, never had an issue with the system in any of the 3 counties.

?Cee?view

Natalie Aggressive Dirt wrote: »

Excellent piece.

Sat tests in Dublin,Limerick & Cork myself, never had an issue with the system in any of the 3 counties.

Agreed. I've done tests in Dublin, Galway and Athlone. Same experience.

Alanstrainor

Nice insight, cheers J_R

doolox

I recall a tale of a man who did the test although he was already the holder of a full licence with all classes of vehicles allowed on it.

He never did a test because it was not mandatory at the time he applied, lucky sod.

As a bet he undertook the test and was failed. His licence was taken off him and he had to go to the trouble of sitting and passing all the classes needed for his work. He was confined to warehouse work until he got all the necessary licences back again.

He lost his bet.

If a person holding a full licence were to apply for and sit the driving test, would their previous licence be taken off them??

I am aware that if a licence expires by a certain time limit you have to resit the test again.

What would be the consequences if a person were mad enough to apply for and resit their driving test? Would they lose their previous licence?

Dravokivich

I'd be very surprised if you can apply for a test, for a category, you are already licensed for.

Plumbthedepths

doolox wrote:

If a person holding a full licence were to apply for and sit the driving test, would their previous licence be taken off them??

Why if you hold a full would you even bother tbh?

professore

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Every single day when I reverse my car into parking spaces. I would have thought similarly to you when I was originally practising it. As, to be fair, it's rare I reverse around a corner on a road in a housing estate like you generally practice on. But the skill set is the same for reverse parking.

Reversing your car into a parking space between two cars is totally different to reversing round a corner with no cars. In the latter case you have no frame of reference. It's actually much harder, especially if the radius of the turn changes as you go round it. You have a lot of blind spots and angles to check. Unless the road was so narrow it was impossible to turn, I would never reverse round a corner; it's too dangerous, with small kids, boy racers flying round corners etc. I would go to the end of the estate, turn around and drive back out.

In the Belgian test there is a metal frame you park in between simulating cars. A far more realistic test for the real world.

professore

Natalie Aggressive Dirt wrote: »

Excellent piece.

Sat tests in Dublin,Limerick & Cork myself, never had an issue with the system in any of the 3 counties.

How long did you have to wait between tests? What would you consider an acceptable waiting period?

ayux4rj6zql2ph

professore wrote: »

How long did you have to wait between tests? What would you consider an acceptable waiting period?

Longest wait i ever had was 8 months in 2007 for Category B. Shortest wait was 6 weeks in Limerick.

Did them as follows.

Category A - 2019, 3 months
Category B -2007, 8 months
Category C - 2012, 7 weeks
Category D - 2013, 9 weeks
Category CE - 2015, 6 weeks

Acceptable time frame of 6-12 weeks imo.

professore

Natalie Aggressive Dirt wrote: »

Longest wait i ever had was 8 months in 2007 for Category B. Shortest wait was 6 weeks in Limerick.

Did them as follows.

Category A - 2019, 3 months
Category B -2007, 8 months
Category C - 2012, 7 weeks
Category D - 2013, 9 weeks
Category CE - 2015, 6 weeks

Acceptable time frame of 6-12 weeks imo.

I guess 12 weeks is fine if you pass first time. However if you have to resit a few times it can quickly add up, and there is a 21 day waiting period before you can reapply. So 3 tests can end up taking the guts of a year. And the waiting period in many places is far longer than 12 weeks at the moment.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

professore wrote: »

I guess 12 weeks is fine if you pass first time. However if you have to resit a few times it can quickly add up, and there is a 21 day waiting period before you can reapply. So 3 tests - not an unreasonable amount of tests - can end up taking the guts of a year. And the waiting period in many places is far longer than 12 weeks at the moment.

21 day waiting period to reapply? first i've heard of that.

The big problem as i mentioned earlier in the thread is the amount of no shows for tests.

I respect someone who has tried and failed the test rather than those who apply for it and refuse to sit it all for the sake of endlessly renewing a learner permit.

I would have gotten my A test sooner only for i had to allow the 6 month time frame elapse as i was on a first learner permit. i was given the date within 3 weeks of the application itself.

The lack of testers is a major problem, but people who are failing and blaming everyone but themselves is an even bigger issue. Testers are human beings like anyone else and they can only work with the tools they are given.

Moyagh Murdock & Shane Ross are the two who need to work together to sort the lengthy waiting times.

Speaking of which, i only decided to apply for my Category B test at the time as i knew the wait was so long, i passed with only 2 months left on my then second provisional licence.

Garzard

Natalie Aggressive Dirt wrote: »

professore wrote: »

I guess 12 weeks is fine if you pass first time. However if you have to resit a few times it can quickly add up, and there is a 21 day waiting period before you can reapply. So 3 tests - not an unreasonable amount of tests - can end up taking the guts of a year. And the waiting period in many places is far longer than 12 weeks at the moment.

21 day waiting period to reapply? first i've heard of that.

The big problem as i mentioned earlier in the thread is the amount of no shows for tests.

I respect someone who has tried and failed the test rather than those who apply for it and refuse to sit it all for the sake of endlessly renewing a learner permit.

I would have gotten my A test sooner only for i had to allow the 6 month time frame elapse as i was on a first learner permit. i was given the date within 3 weeks of the application itself.

The lack of testers is a major problem, but people who are failing and blaming everyone but themselves is an even bigger issue. Testers are human beings like anyone else and they can only work with the tools they are given.

Moyagh Murdock & Shane Ross are the two who need to work together to sort the lengthy waiting times.

Speaking of which, i only decided to apply for my Category B test at the time as i knew the wait was so long, i passed with only 2 months left on my then second provisional licence.

It appears to be rather a minimum 21 day waiting period to actually resit a test, as opposed to simply reapplying. I failed my second test last Tuesday and reapplied immediately to the cancellation list after returning home, but decided to call up the next day to enquire about cancellations for the weekend just gone - only then was I informed of the minimum 21 day waiting home. It was the first I've heard of it; a friend of mine told me he was able to resit the test again after less than two weeks after failing his 3rd - as that was 5 years ago though things must have changed there.

MascotDec85

The rule exists to give people time to work on what they failed on but it can be waived due to circumstances. Just before Christmas one of my pupils, who was pregnant and had 3 weeks left, failed on a Monday. She passed on the Saturday. Another pupil, heading to Australia done the same last month.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The rule exists to give people time to work on what they failed on but it can be waived due to circumstances. Just before Christmas one of my pupils, who was pregnant and had 3 weeks left, failed on a Monday. She passed on the Saturday. Another pupil, heading to Australia done the same last month.

So just to clarify, the official rule is a minimum 21 day gap between tests except in exceptional circumstances?

davetherave

Natalie Aggressive Dirt wrote: »

So just to clarify, the official rule is a minimum 21 day gap between tests except in exceptional circumstances?

I can't say for exceptionional circumstances but they have this to say on the RSA website.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/The-Driving-Test/Repeating-your-test/

If you have recently failed a driving test, you will be unable to schedule a driving test for a period of three weeks.

MascotDec85

Natalie Aggressive Dirt wrote: »

So just to clarify, the official rule is a minimum 21 day gap between tests except in exceptional circumstances?

Someone may not have much joy simply calling the office. I used other means.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Someone may not have much joy simply calling the office. I used other means.

We'll say no more, as the man says.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

For those in Cork awaiting a test.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Two-new-driving-testers-hired-to-deal-with-Cork-test-backlog-7c0d2ecc-0119-4ea0-b3bd-c4081516f8e8-ds

TWO new driving testers have been hired to deal with a backlog of over 6,500 people waiting for driving tests in Cork city, the Road Safety Authority (RSA) has confirmed.

There are 6,554 people waiting for tests in the city, while 10,711 people are waiting for tests across test centres in Mallow, Skibbereen and Killarney - where the maximum waiting time is up to 15 weeks for a driving test. Average wait times in the city are 11.7 weeks - above the RSA’s national targets of 10-week wait times.

The two new testers will bring to nine the number of testers now based at the Cork city test centre.

Wishbone Ash

doolox wrote: »

I recall a tale of a man who did the test although he was already the holder of a full licence with all classes of vehicles allowed on it.

He never did a test because it was not mandatory at the time he applied, lucky sod.

As a bet he undertook the test and was failed. His licence was taken off him and he had to go to the trouble of sitting and passing all the classes needed for his work. He was confined to warehouse work until he got all the necessary licences back again.

He lost his bet.......

I'd be a skeptical about that story. Sounds like the sort of stuff you hear bar stool experts droning on about.

Even if it were true, I'd seriously doubt that he could have lost his licence. He'd be on a good legal standing to retain it.

Incidentally, the legendary Donegal TD and Minister Neil Blaney sat the first driving test even though he already had a licence. He passed but it was more of a publicity stunt as he introduced driving tests when a Minister in 1964 and it probably prevented grief from prospective candidates complaining that he didn't have to go through a test to get his licence..

Markitron

About that 21 day period, one of the testers mentioned to me when I failed that I didn't get a grade 3 so I wouldn't have to wait the 21 day period before they could reschedule. So that may be something to do with it.

hasdanta

I got a grade 3 on my first test and was rescheduled within a few days - it depends on who you get when you call for a cancellation.

witchgirl26

It also depends on what number test you're on. I did my first 2 within a couple of weeks of each other but for my 3rd one I had to wait the 21 days. Was told it was because I'd failed the first too.

MascotDec85

witchgirl26 wrote: »

It also depends on what number test you're on. I did my first 2 within a couple of weeks of each other but for my 3rd one I had to wait the 21 days. Was told it was because I'd failed the first too.

You’ve been spun a line there tbh

witchgirl26

MascotDec85 wrote: »

You’ve been spun a line there tbh

Yes spun a line by the automatic online booking system that popped up an automatic message when I went to rebook the test 2 hours after failing it :rolleyes:

MascotDec85

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Yes spun a line by the automatic online booking system that popped up an automatic message when I went to rebook the test 2 hours after failing it :rolleyes:

Then it was absolutely nothing to do with the number of times you’d sat the test :rolleyes:

witchgirl26

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Then it was absolutely nothing to do with the number of times you’d sat the test :rolleyes:

Even when that's exactly what it said. "As you have failed two tests in the past x number of weeks, there is a waiting period of 21 days before you can sit a third test. You will be allocated a test date after this."

MascotDec85

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Even when that's exactly what it said. "As you have failed two tests in the past x number of weeks, there is a waiting period of 21 days before you can sit a third test. You will be allocated a test date after this."

Fair enough but strange they apply it like that when the rule, albeit one that can be bypassed, exists anyway.

biko

I have a dream that one day OP will return after dumping their rant on this site and flying off into the night

ayux4rj6zql2ph

biko wrote: »

I have a dream that one day OP will return after dumping their rant on this site and flying off into the night

A one night wonder.

zepman

Alanstrainor wrote: »

It is something that would be a good idea though. Yes, I think it is a given that any driver can read the tick boxes on a sheet. But it is very hard to know where those faults were incurred, especially if they are grade 2 faults where it mightn't be as obvious as a single grade 3. I think a quick debrief would be a good idea. "Sorry, but today I can't give you a pass, there were a number of faults when turning, one example would be when turning off x road on to y"... would be rather good. But on the other hand I can see why there would be some reluctance. I have heard of some very angry people after being told they've failed, and that is something that is difficult to deal with, and arguing is something no one wants in a job.

Make no mistake the system is not perfect. The test doesn't cover anywhere near enough, the waiting lists are too long (for lots of reasons), and only in recent times have the government began to actually apply the law with regard to learner drivers. Making those with learner permits now bitter about the way things were before. It's not surprising tbh.

EDIT: Just thinking about my one and only test which I passed, my examiner did actually do a bit of a debrief. "Well, you have passed your test but there are some areas that need a bit of work....", of course I don't remember anything about what he said given the excitement but it was a nice thing to say!

Yeah. I received feedback from the examiner after my first test which I had failed. This was back in 2013. I also received feedback after my second attempt which I passed, just 2 days ago.

Natalie Aggressive Dirt wrote: »

The driving instructor can only go over it to an extent, they aren't on the test itself, i've only ever heard of it being done once and that was at the RSA's discretion.

Actually, when I was in the waiting room for my recent test, every tester was asking the candidate (just after the initial greeting) if they would like their instructor to be present during the feedback session after the test. I said no when my tester asked me, as I wasn't with my instructor but with a friend (my sponsor) who had wandered away after I walked into the waiting room. But there were many whose instructors stuck around outside near the car park, so they did say yes.

Although there may not be a discussion or details of every single fault incurred, I do think that the presence of the instructor who already knows the candidate's weak points would make the feedback session more fruitful.

MascotDec85

zepman wrote: »

Yeah. I received feedback from the examiner after my first test which I had failed. This was back in 2013. I also received feedback after my second attempt which I passed, just 2 days ago.



Actually, when I was in the waiting room for my recent test, every tester was asking the candidate (just after the initial greeting) if they would like their instructor to be present during the feedback session after the test. I said no when my tester asked me, as I wasn't with my instructor but with a friend (my sponsor) who had wandered away after I walked into the waiting room. But there were many whose instructors stuck around outside near the car park, so they did say yes.

Although there may not be a discussion or details of every single fault incurred, I do think that the presence of the instructor who already knows the candidate's weak points would make the feedback session more fruitful.

Extract from an email from the RSA to ADIs:

“Pilot Scheme for the introduction of ADI’s to sit in on the verbal feedback session of the Driving Test April 2019.

Dear ADI,
The RSA are introducing a scheme where you the ADI will have the facility to sit in on the verbal feedback session of the driving test with their applicant. This will be introduced on a pilot basis with a view to assessing the feasibility of a national roll out.
The pilot will operate in the following centres:
Finglas, Tallaght, Cork and Galway from the 1/4/19 to 12/4/19.”

never_mind

sunshine1977 wrote: »

Just need to put this out there as its been bugging me for sometime.
You have a 60% failure rate against you before you even put a foot in the door in Finglas and most of Dublin – 2018 stats.
On the other hand, down the country, where most of the tragedies are happening, you have approx 60% pass rate.
You are failed on outlandish things like not looking over your shoulder once or twice extra. Reversing around the corner (perfectly) doesn’t seem to count if you don’t check your shoulders enough. Hitting the brakes too quickly when someone stops suddenly is apparently a fail also.
In my first test, in Finglas, I was told I handled the car very well, that there was nothing wrong with my driving, but still failed.
Second time, I had a horrible human terminator, who made me very nervous and had me failed before even looking at me.
I am so stressed and p+*sed of with the system in this country. You can’t even repeat your test before waiting another 3 mths for a cancellation or 6 months, you’ve to go through the whole long withdrawn system again, they’ll squeeze every penny out of you, and then fail you.
I have little confidence and faith left.
Minister Ross is an absolute sham of a minister, he put’s all the onus back on the public to sort out his mess that he hasn’t the aptitude to fix.
So hey, lets bring in the Clancy amendment and seize ALL their cars, but lets not look at the crux of the problem - Deliberately low pass rates, archaic passing system, back log of 6 months, 83,000 people waiting to sit their sits, accident blackspots with high pass rates, I could go on and on. And not to mention the nice little pot of money he’s putting back into the coffers of the country. SHAM – IT’S BROKEN MINISTER ROSS – BROKEN.

Do it in Naas then.

zepman

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Extract from an email from the RSA to ADIs:

“Pilot Scheme for the introduction of ADI’s to sit in on the verbal feedback session of the Driving Test April 2019.

Dear ADI,
The RSA are introducing a scheme where you the ADI will have the facility to sit in on the verbal feedback session of the driving test with their applicant. This will be introduced on a pilot basis with a view to assessing the feasibility of a national roll out.
The pilot will operate in the following centres:
Finglas, Tallaght, Cork and Galway from the 1/4/19 to 12/4/19.”

Ah, mine was in Finglas. So they wouldn't have let my sponsor in anyway, which makes sense.

MascotDec85

zepman wrote: »

Ah, mine was in Finglas. So they wouldn't have let my sponsor in anyway, which makes sense.

ONLY driving instructors can attend and they have to show their ADI badge

ayux4rj6zql2ph

MascotDec85 wrote: »

ONLY driving instructors can attend and they have to show their ADI badge

The laminated photo I.D card or is there something else more compact that's the size of a credit card?

MascotDec85

Natalie Aggressive Dirt wrote: »

The laminated photo I.D card or is there something else more compact that's the size of a credit card?

Credit card sized. The big awful sized one is for the car