Does Ireland have a higher level of lawlessness or disregard for the law than other c

NIMAN

After listening to radio debates today, when people are saying its against a young persons human rights to not allow them to drive on their own under a provisional licence, I got to think, as a nation do we tolerate a certain level of lawlessness?

Doesn't matter that these unaccompanied drivers are adding to the fatality count.

Others want us to be able to have 3 or 4 pints and still drive home.

Then we have our fraudulent claim culture. When many would say "you should claim for that".

Others complaining about Gardai checkpoints having the audacity to actually breathalyse people.

Not to mention many who drive without insurance or tax.

So are we worse than other nations?

Samuel T. Cogley

Ireland has a rebellious nature in general I think. People don't like to follow the rules. But it's fairly minor stuff. All in all I'd say we're about average in the developed world.

As for the claims culture though, it's a oft trotted out line that we are overly litigious but rarely backed up with any hard facts vs other jurisdictions.

Signore Fancy Pants

We are a nation of chancers and fcuktards with a hefty sprinkle of a "do what I say and not as a I do" attitude.

Schure, be grand.

Also, we are generally alright until someone tells us not to do something... then we just fcuking do it, 'cos fcuk them lot!

Flyingsnowball

Every country has a percentage of all types of people. Circumstances like poverty skew this percentage abit.
People who have never been out of Ireland for more than a week in Santa ponsa say things like “only in Ireland”.

The motorways in Germany are as mad as here.

dxhound2005

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Ireland has a rebellious nature in general I think. People don't like to follow the rules. But it's fairly minor stuff. All in all I'd say we're about average in the developed world.

If we are average we must be a lot less rebellious than some countries.

j8wk2feszrnpao

NIMAN wrote: »

So are we worse than other nations?

No. We are worse than some, but a hell of a lot better than many others.

Signore Fancy Pants

Berties_Horse wrote: »

We're better than Burkina Faso, and the Healy-Raes.

It would be better if Burkina Faso had the Healy-Raes!!!

mad muffin

They have but as the decades go by less so.

orourkeda1977

I followed the law on yer aul wan last night.

Gimme A Pound

I don't think so. That description makes me think of somewhere in the wilds of Latin America or Africa or Asia, but I definitely think there is a disappointing level of self entitlement and "why should I?" And "I know my rights". An unwillingness just to face up to taking responsibility for one's own choices.

NIMAN

Vrt avoidance is a biggie too.

The country is full of people driving on UK or NI plates.

dxhound2005

NIMAN wrote: »

Vrt avoidance is a biggie too.

The country is full of people driving on UK or NI plates.

They could be UK citizens, especially in border counties.

buried

The whole driving thing for young people is a load of auld balls. If the establishment actually want young people to be competent drivers, well then teach the skill in secondary school for christsakes. Stick it as a course in transition year for those that want to do it. Be more beneficial than the civics/religious/social **** wollicks they festoon that entire year with.

dxhound2005

buried wrote: »

The whole driving thing for young people is a load of auld balls. If the establishment actually want young people to be competent drivers, well then teach the skill in secondary school for christsakes. Stick it as a course in transition year for those that want to do it. Be more beneficial than the civics/religious/social **** wollicks they festoon that entire year with.

Where would they get better driving instructors than those who are doing it now?

SEPT 23 1989

The state likes easy targets

buried

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where would they get better driving instructors than those who are doing it now?

Use the same ones, make them pay for it if you want, just give them the chance to learn an actual life skill for the one year they have the time to do it. The schools have no problem hiring outside tutors for other waste of time modules in that year. Why no learn to drive courses?

I'd also like to see some actual statistics about how many provisional learners have been involved in fatal car crashes, and not some grim depressing TV advert

Larbre34

We are woolly on some laws that are impractical day-to-day, such as this unaccompanied drivers thing for example. Water charges failed because the public saw it for the farce it was.

However, if you look at the massive success of the plastic bag tax, the smoking ban and the drastic reduction in road deaths due to drink-driving and speeding law changes over the years, we are pretty compliant for things that are generally good for society.

By coincidence I was chatting to a recently retired Uncle of mine last night who worked his whole life in sales and commercial dealing in heavy industries around the world and the stories he recounts about blatant, shameless, overt and inconsequential corruption and fraud he encountered in so many countries that is just part and parcel of getting anything done would make your hair curl.

If you add that to levels of violent crime and abuse in many countries compared to ourselves, I'd say we're a pretty observant and civilised bunch when it comes to everyday laws.

dxhound2005

buried wrote: »

Use the same ones, make them pay for it if you want, just give them the chance to learn an actual life skill for the one year they have the time to do it. The schools have no problem hiring outside tutors for other waste of time modules in that year. Why no learn to drive courses?

I'd also like to see some actual statistics about how many provisional learners have been involved in fatal car crashes, and not some grim depressing TV advert

I can't see any reason to involve schools in that. Let them go to those instructors in their own time, not use up school hours.

buried

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I can't see any reason to involve schools in that. Let them go to those instructors in their own time, not use up school hours.

But the hours are being used up on useless $hite anyways. Religious education, PE, Civics, Art History. Fair enough if you want to do them things but driving is a fundamental life skill that you must learn, especially if you are living in a rural area and wish to continue to keep living there. The state should give those the option to learn it if they want to, especially in something like 4th year where feic all is happening in terms of state exams

Gimme A Pound

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The state likes easy targets

How do you mean?

CalamariFritti

I don't think it is the case that the Irish are lawless. There is a bit of a streak of not responding well to authority and I find the Irish more rebellious than for example the Germans who love to follow rules. But by and large Irish people are pretty law abiding and conservative and a lot of the rebellion is confined to having a good moan over a pint and getting the odd little win over 'the man'.

As to the driving thing. Driving is serious enough business. You're propelling a thing that weighs over a ton and a little moment of not paying attention or panicking can kill very easily. Generally speaking people are way too blasé about this. You need to treat it as the serious thing that it is and it is not a divine right to drive either. You need to be qualified to do so and NCT and insurance are not a joke, there is a good reason for all this.

I hate this thing being trotted out 'but I need to drive for x, y, z reason'. Same with people who did something and are in danger of losing their license. Well if its so important to your life then maybe you should make an actual proper effort to qualify or not do the stupid things that may get you disqualified. Not just sit there and moan how you should be allowed to drive 'because' .

buried

If ye want to see some lawlessness, come down my place on a Saturday night on the local 3am fast food strip and watch all sorts of people nyucked out of their booze box literally kicking the holy hell out of each other. Where the police? In bed getting ready for the 8am breathalyzer Sunday morning checkpoint test for the people what had two beers the night before in their own gaff and have to go to the shop or mass that morning

Victor

There are different rules and laws in different places, so this shifts things.

People point to Germany and say "they follow the rules", when in fact, there is a very strong counter-culture and there is a huge amount of money in tax evasion.

People point to Asia and say "those people do what the boss says"* when there can be lots of slacking off, sleeping on the job and trying to retire by age 30.


* Note that what the boss says might not follow the rules.

Salt Lake Stallion

Having lived in Australia for a while I found people there are just as willing as us Irish to circumvent the law.

mikemac2

Drink driving culture in Continental Europe is where Ireland was 20 years ago in my experience. It’s rife

So much progress made in Ireland and the OP and others won’t credit that

Snow Garden

The Gardaí seem to have a disregard for the law. Ask McCabe.

buried

NIMAN

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They could be UK citizens, especially in border counties.

They ain't.

I'm talking about the folk who bought property in Ireland when it was cheaper than in NI, but who still wanted to live the NI life, keep the car, send the kids to their old schools.

So now they drive NI cars and register their kids at the granny's address so they don't have to go to ROI schools.

HBC08

NIMAN wrote: »

They ain't.

I'm talking about the folk who bought property in Ireland when it was cheaper than in NI, but who still wanted to live the NI life, keep the car, send the kids to their old schools.

So now they drive NI cars and register their kids at the granny's address so they don't have to go to ROI schools.

There's no doubt that this is a thing. A shocking, shocking thing.

dxhound2005

With so many NI drivers in Donegal and the other border counties daily, it must be difficult for the authorities to spot the locals with imports. They did have a bit of a crackdown back in 2012.

CUSTOMS officers are seizing almost 140 cars every month from motorists driving UK-registered cars to avoid paying tax.

A major clampdown has resulted in almost 3,000 cars with yellow number plates being seized over the past 22 months alone, according to new figures from the Revenue Commissioners.

If anyone knows an offender they could report them. It will be a lot easier after Brexit, if there is a real border.

NIMAN

There is plenty of documentation to prove these folk are Irish residents.

They will be paying a mortgage, claiming child benefit for a start.

dxhound2005

NIMAN wrote: »

There is plenty of documentation to prove these folk are Irish residents.

They will be paying a mortgage, claiming child benefit for a start

None of which would contain any information on their cars.

NIMAN

dxhound2005 wrote: »

None of which would contain any information on their cars.

Eh?

If you are a permanent ROI resident you ain't allowed to drive an NI registered car. Otherwise no cars would ever have been confiscated.

But maybe we'll leave vrt behind and move on in this thread.

dxhound2005

NIMAN wrote: »

Eh?

If you are a ROI resident you ain't allowed to drive an NI registered car.

But maybe we'll leave vrt behind and move on in this thread.

Before we do the question is how to stop them.

Wibbs

No.

NIMAN

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Before we do the question is how to stop them.

Keep confiscating the cars?

doolox

The state needs to get its act together before hunting down young drivers and stealing their cars for driving unattended.

The waiting list in some country areas such as Kilrush and Wexford is 17 weeks while it is 6 weeks in Deansgrange in beautiful DLR. Bet the denizens of DLR would not wait for 17 weeks for a basic human right in Shane Ross' local area....

While the poor unfortunates in Kilrush must avail of the "excellent" public transport links to the jobs hotspots of Ennis, Limerick and Shannon only a few km away........


And I am a Dutchman.

17 weeks waiting for a test is way too long.

The State needs to hire and recruit more testers and shorten the waiting lists for tests as a matter of public national emergency.

Because the status of being a learner driver affects mostly under 18 year olds and is a temporary thing, there is not the same level of political cuteness, guile and ability to manipulate the political process as you find in more senior members of society. The so-called "vulnerable" old age pensioners who cause more accidents than learner drivers but cannot be touched by the law for some mysterious reason, they would not put up with waiting 17 weeks for a bloody licence.

If the Gadai Sicini (not a spelling mistake) insist on robbing cars off children then there will be a backlash like nothing else seen in this country in a long time.The test waiting times need to be shortened as quickly and as urgently as possible.

The other alternative should be a form of driving test "tourism" where people should be allowed to take tests in other more civilised countries in the EU where testers are more obliging and lists are shorter.

Unfortunately this costs more than the lost earnings in waiting for the test in Ireland and is only available to the very few.

I can only speculate that test services are not available in other countries to non residents of a particular country or the wily Irish would be crowding into that country to do their wretched driving tests.

17 weeks is way too long.

Can anybody find out how Ireland compares to other EU countries regarding test waiting times???

I have tried to google this online and it keeps referring to Irish waiting times.

I'd love to find out how other European countries compare.

I am aware that people travel to get health and dental procedures carried out and buy medicines in cheaper countries. Could a similar mechanism apply to driving tests??? Package it up as a weekend away. I bet many young people would jump at the chance in order to legally get mobile and secure that badly needed job.

My instinct is that, like car insurance and mortgages, this is a closed shop.

No Irish need apply.

Could any continentals let me know, can you do a test in one EU nation and transfer the licence to another nation without onerous, long-term residence restrictions?

Cookie_Monster

Yes, from the scourge of travellers to the general ignoring of most road rules to the petty theft being a fact of life. Can't leave your car unlock or leave a decent bike locked to a stand and expect it to be there when you get back.

Mad_maxx

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Ireland has a rebellious nature in general I think. People don't like to follow the rules. But it's fairly minor stuff. All in all I'd say we're about average in the developed world.

As for the claims culture though, it's a oft trotted out line that we are overly litigious but rarely backed up with any hard facts vs other jurisdictions.

We only have a low brow rebelousness, we are pretty conformist overall, rebelling against a " no littering" sign isn't much of an ideology

Cee-Jay-Cee

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Ireland has a rebellious nature in general I think. People don't like to follow the rules. But it's fairly minor stuff. All in all I'd say we're about average in the developed world.

As for the claims culture though, it's a oft trotted out line that we are overly litigious but rarely backed up with any hard facts vs other jurisdictions.

When you consider that the vast majority of injury claims are for whiplash which cant actually be proven and that France doesn't even recognise whiplash as an injury then I'd say we're well above the EU average for claims.

I also note from several UK based car forums that here we look to attribute blame immediately and are very quick to run to a solicitor whereas in the UK most people involved in collisions rarely attribute blame and their primary concern is to get their car fixed with as little cost to them as possible.

Stone Deaf 4evr

It think its time for that great irish solution to an irish problem, and just clear the backlog by issuing full licences to everyone on the waiting list. We can start from scratch then with a clear run at the job.

Day Lewin

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

...irish solution to an irish problem, .

Best kind, seeing as it's where we live.

Edgware

I would say considering the complete absence of a police presence on the street the Irish are very law abiding.
I was in France recently on a train. It stopped at a station. Six armed police officers got on-board and checked everyone's passport or I.d.card.
No messing there

Red Alert

Italians are fairly lawless when it suits them too.

Iscreamkone

It varies from area to area if you ask me.
Donegal would definitely be a 10 on the 'wild west' scale (if there was such a thing).

Irish Guitarist

There's certainly little things that are a nuisance that are not only tolerated, but that you can't even mention without someone saying "do you not have anything else to be worrying about" or called a 'begrudger' or some shite.

For instance there's a forest park in Carlow with a small path to walk through. There's just barely enough room for two people to walk on this path and there's a sign at the entrance that clearly says "no bicycles please". However there's often loads of fucking idiots cycling at full speed right in the middle of this path. I made a thread about this on the Carlow forum years ago and pretty much every response was telling me I was the bad guy for not wanting some fucking gobshite hurtling into me at top speed.

Iscreamkone

What about dog owners?
A significant proportion let their dogs sh!t in public places. They also let their dogs loose in public areas where there are Local Authority signage banning this practice.

Shur, what's the harm is the attitude.

Samuel T. Cogley

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

When you consider that the vast majority of injury claims are for whiplash which cant actually be proven and that France doesn't even recognise whiplash as an injury then I'd say we're well above the EU average for claims.

I also note from several UK based car forums that here we look to attribute blame immediately and are very quick to run to a solicitor whereas in the UK most people involved in collisions rarely attribute blame and their primary concern is to get their car fixed with as little cost to them as possible.

My evidence is equally as anecdotal but as I say I'm yet to see someone produce some sort of claim per capita statistic that can be verified.

scamalert

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

My evidence is equally as anecdotal but as I say I'm yet to see someone produce some sort of claim per capita statistic that can be verified.

you dont even need stats for this look at the payouts 50-100k is the norm nowadays. not to mention most stupidest claims wasnt there a thread just recently from someone having made 20 successful claims.

Samuel T. Cogley

scamalert wrote: »

you dont even need stats for this look at the payouts 50-100k is the norm nowadays. not to mention most stupidest claims wasnt there a thread just recently from someone having made 20 successful claims.

Yeah as I've indicated, I'm not buying it without stats to back it up, which shouldn't be too hard if we're the basket case people seem to suggest. As with most things I expect the reality is we're middle of the road, better than some, worse than others.

Your Face

NIMAN wrote: »

So are we worse than other nations?

We should concentrate on ourselves rather than comparisons with other countries.