Caster Semenya the South African female athlete

suicide_circus

maybe get rid of men/women's competitions and just do it by chromosome.
The XY 100 meters or the XX Wimbledon final

FTA69

klaaaz wrote: »

You're wrong, Fallon Fox is female as recognised by the medical community and the law in the EU and in the US.



You know better than the MMA boxing commission who allowed Fallon to compete under very strict rules. Quite strange!

You can't change your sex mate, you're either male or female. Now can people change their gender? Absolutely, and much of what we attach to gender is rubbish anyway so have at it. I have no problem using given pronouns, names etc or accepting people for who they are. But the idea that Fox somehow wasn't born a male, went through puberty as a male, transitioned as a man and retains some male characteristics physically is literally the equivalent of shutting your eyes, sticking your finger in your ears and shouting "la la la" at people pointing out the obvious.

The contention that Rachel McKinnon, Fallon Fox, Hannah Mouncey et al have no advantage over women is just utterly mental - and all concerns raised about it are shot down as "transphobic" by people like you who seemingly think that the rights of transwomen should supersede the rights of women time and time again.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Who gives a f***!! Its only stupid athletics. Theres more important things to be concerned with.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

maybe get rid of men/women's competitions and just do it by chromosome.
The XY 100 meters or the XX Wimbledon final

Or in the current "everyone is equal in every way" society, let everyone compete against each other. Let's see what results we get.

ASOT

FTA69 wrote: »

You can't change your sex mate, you're either male or female. Now can people change their gender? Absolutely, and much of what we attach to gender is rubbish anyway so have at it. I have no problem using given pronouns, names etc or accepting people for who they are. But the idea that Fox somehow wasn't born a male, went through puberty as a male, transitioned as a man and retains some male characteristics physically is literally the equivalent of shutting your eyes, sticking your finger in your ears and shouting "la la la" at people pointing out the obvious.

The contention that Rachel McKinnon, Fallon Fox, Hannah Mouncey et al have no advantage over women is just utterly mental - and all concerns raised about it are shot down as "transphobic" by people like you who seemingly think that the rights of transwomen should supersede the rights of women time and time again.

Your flogging a dead horse here mate.

valoren

Semenya is a physical outlier. A woman but with the physical ability of a man who focused on the 800 metres. That's just the way it is. Tough on talented athlete's who have dedicated themselves to and specialized in the 800 metres. When you take to the start line with Semenya in the race, you're running for 2nd place. The dilemma here would be the increasing attractiveness of performance enhancing drugs which to a competitive athlete might be a necessity to win Gold and the lucrative rewards of winning.

An outlier in any sport will foster debate be it raw physical talent which is the case for Semenya or extreme 'dial moving' skills beyond that of the talent pool. Bolt was mentioned, at his peak way ahead of other's including known dopers. He was just that good. Same for Michael Johnson i.e. you were running for 2nd place. Think back to Tiger Woods circa 99/00/01. He had beaten the field mentally before he even tee'd up. He was so good that the rest of the field were playing for second place. Administrators looked to lengthen courses to 'tiger proof' them, hyperbole of him actually being bad for golf etc

Zorya

Another possibility which I guess would tick the ''inclusivity'' box, is that where there is ZERO contact, perhaps transgendered athletes could compete with their chosen gender and then be assigned a placing that recognises their transgenderedness. So for example, Rachel McKinnon comes first in the race as Trans athlete and the biological female who came second to Rachel is first in the race in the female category.

I can already see holes in my idea though, as it would not work where there are knock out or qualifying rounds if biological females were being knocked out before graduating to finals etc. Hmmmm.

But anyways for Caster, it may happen in some years when we come to our senses that Caster's victories will be assigned to her as being enclosed in a package that ackowledges her enhanced testosterone advantage. So Caster is first with qualification, and whoever came second and third as non intersex females will be first and second in the officials records as non-testosterone enhanced females. That might help with things like scholarships and grant awards and historical records for biological female sports achievements.

Something like that...

FTA69

ASOT wrote: »

Your flogging a dead horse here mate.

Probably. I do take comfort in the fact that the vast majority of average people looking at the Fallon Fox stuff will say "that's not right" when they see someone with male characteristics knocking women unconscious in combat sports. Unfortunately you'll have a super-vocal minority then like the poster above who is determined to patrol the margins shouting abuse at anyone pointing out the f*cking obvious.

klaaaz

FTA69 wrote: »

You can't change your sex mate, you're either male or female. Now can people change their gender? Absolutely, and much of what we attach to gender is rubbish anyway so have at it. I have no problem using given pronouns, names etc or accepting people for who they are. But the idea that Fox somehow wasn't born a male, went through puberty as a male, transitioned as a man and retains some male characteristics physically is literally the equivalent of shutting your eyes, sticking your finger in your ears and shouting "la la la" at people pointing out the obvious.

The contention that Rachel McKinnon, Fallon Fox, Hannah Mouncey et al have no advantage over women is just utterly mental - and all concerns raised about it are shot down as "transphobic" by people like you who seemingly think that the rights of transwomen should supersede the rights of women time and time again.

FTA69 wrote: »

Probably. I do take comfort in the fact that the vast majority of average people looking at the Fallon Fox stuff will say "that's not right" when they see someone with male characteristics knocking women unconscious in combat sports. Unfortunately you'll have a super-vocal minority then like the poster above who is determined to patrol the margins shouting abuse at anyone pointing out the f*cking obvious.

Fallon Fox is recognised as a female by the sporting organisation she competed in and is recognised as female by the medical community and the law. It is you on your barstool claiming to be a victim of abuse when you're "shutting your eyes, sticking your finger in your ears and shouting "la la la" , it is you who dismisses these facts. Fallon (who you brought into the conversation) also lost one of her matches so is not all the advantageous that you claim to be and is now aged 43.
As for Caster Semenya who has your description of the male physique where you have no vitriol about her ability, your words..

FTA69 wrote:

It’s not all just down to test either though. It’s about having a male physique in general

Hector Savage

ceadaoin. wrote: »

No. Why would I? Serena Williams is a female, with no ambiguity. She just happens to be great at tennis through hard work and natural strength.

Unless you are a racist and suggesting that a strong black woman is more like a man than a delicate white woman?

And Serena has had a child too - so don't see the comparison.

silverharp

Either someone is biologically a man or a woman and even if someone has a sex related disorder they are still male or female with that disorder. Its kind of bizzaro world where biological males are increasingly being allowed to compete in female events yet this is an issue

FTA69

klaaaz wrote: »

Fallon Fox is recognised as a female by the sporting organisation she competed in and is recognised as female by the medical community and the law. It is you on your barstool claiming to be a victim of abuse when you're "shutting your eyes, sticking your finger in your ears and shouting "la la la" , it is you who dismisses these facts. Fallon (who you brought into the conversation) also lost one of her matches so is not all the advantageous that you claim to be and is now aged 43.
As for Caster Semenya who has your description of the male physique where you have no vitriol about her ability, your words..

Barstool? Victim of abuse? What are you even talking about? I said that some women who raised concerns about getting rag dolled and battered by transwomen in sports have been abused, I didn't say I was a victim at all. You've continuously strawmanned throughout this thread.

Fox is now recognised as a female and that's the gender to which she subscribes, fair play to her. But her sex is that of a male, she was born a male, went through puberty as a male and transitioned as a man. These are facts. These facts lead to someone having a certain physicality. This isn't difficult stuff to grasp like, and no matter how much you huff and puff - Fox, Mouncey etc don't magically erase their male characteristics when they transition,

As for Fox, I know you know nothing about martial arts or combat sports - but Fox lost to Ashlee Evans Smith, one of the UFC's top fighters, one of the best fighters in the world at the time. I was a decent amateur boxer, but I've no doubt that Katie Taylor would knock the sh*t out of me in the ring, that fact doesn't mean I should then be boxing in the London ABA women's tournaments.

Again, I haven't made one comment on Caster Semenya at all. Nothing. Zip.

And I refuse to do so because you're using intersex people as a battering ram to push your opinions about transgenderism and it's not on to conflate the two.

eagle eye

Let the trans have their own Olympics.

MsDaisyC

astrofool wrote: »

Usain Bolt is about 10% faster than Flo Jo, should she just accept that and not compete? Should we just get rid of female competition altogether?

Flo Jo's long since dead, retiring from running just as out of competition, random drug tests were being introduced.

independent.co.uk/sport/athletics-flo-jo-and-the-shadow-of-doubt-1200951.html

klaaaz

FTA69 wrote: »

Fox is now recognised as a female and that's the gender to which she subscribes, fair play to her. But her sex is that of a male, she was born a male, went through puberty as a male and transitioned as a man. These are facts. These facts lead to someone having a certain physicality. This isn't difficult stuff to grasp like, and no matter how much you huff and puff - Fox, Mouncey etc don't magically erase their male characteristics when they transition,

Caster has the same male characteristics but born female, why no objections to her competing in female sports with her resulting super Olympic stardom where other female athletes have struggled to compete with her?

FTA69 wrote: »

As for Fox, I know you know nothing about martial arts or combat sports - but Fox lost to Ashlee Evans Smith, one of the UFC's top fighters, one of the best fighters in the world at the time. I was a decent amateur boxer, but I've no doubt that Katie Taylor would knock the sh*t out of me in the ring, that fact doesn't mean I should then be boxing in the London ABA women's tournaments.

So you know more about the MMA than the MMA authorities themselves who allowed Fox to compete under strict criteria. Perhaps set up your own MMA organisation to specifically exclude male physique female fighters!

suicide_circus

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen.

Cienciano

ceadaoin. wrote: »

She is a person with a y chromosome and testes who went through a male puberty as a result.. Bit different than just a woman with a male "physique"

Do you have a citation for that? I never heard it before, would be interesting to read it.

Pissartist

s4uv3 wrote: »

If she's declared a woman, she's a woman, and should be entitled to live as one. If you were to ban her from female sports on hormone grounds, you'd have to start testing the levels of all women who compete.

she's only a woman if she has the xx chromosone,
otherwise it's a man

DEFTLEFTHAND

klaaaz wrote: »

Caster has the same male characteristics but born female, why no objections to her competing in female sports with her resulting super Olympic stardom where other female athletes have struggled to compete with her?



So you know more about the MMA than the MMA authorities themselves who allowed Fox to compete under strict criteria. Perhaps set up your own MMA organisation to specifically exclude male physique female fighters!

Not everybody involved with the UFC is happy about it.

Joe Rogan has a major issue with Fallon Fox competing in the women's division.

I accept Fox's gender identity but we have to be realistic when it comes to the biological differences between the male and female bodies.

Wibbs

klaaaz wrote: »

Fallon Fox is recognised as a female by the sporting organisation she competed in and is recognised as female by the medical community and the law.

Which proves that we've gone down the rabbit hole taking crazy pills as we fall. Fallon Fox is a biological male, tweaked by hormones(and surgery?) into a self identifying female. This is a biological, scientific, medical fact. Using current laws as an argument is ridiculous. Would you run to that argument twenty years ago when Fox would be defined by law and medicine and sporting bodies as a male? You would not.

klaaaz wrote: »

Caster has the same male characteristics but born female, why no objections to her competing in female sports with her resulting super Olympic stardom where other female athletes have struggled to compete with her?

Caster is intersex. A biological medical condition. She is not a transexual. She is not a male who medically changed her hormone profiles to one approximating a female.

RWCNT

klaaaz wrote: »

She is not transgender, i'm wondering how the posters here who object to transgender people specifically in sports cope with the fact that Miss Semenya has very high testosterone levels which are more likely greater than a trans athlete and greater than non-trans female athletes.

What is your view on this matter, should Miss Semenya still be allowed to compete in female sports despite her high testosterone levels since birth which give her a huge unfair advantage over other female athletes?

It's a very interesting question. There are loads of physical characteristics that provide an advantage for different sports and what exactly constitutes an "unfair" advantage. There's an MMA fighter called Bigfoot Silva who suffered from acromegaly which gave him a giant head and hands, both quite advantageous in combat.

There was also a trans-woman MMA fighter called Fallon Fox a few years ago and there was a huge amount of debate over whether it was safe to allow her to fight cisgender women. The safety question made me think - what if there was a cis woman with higher testosterone and greater bone density than Fallon- which can happen, there are always outliers - would it be proper to allow them to fight, given that the danger to their opponents is potentially greater?

I honestly don't know where I fall on the subject. A consensus from medical professionals with specialist knowledge of the sports in question is the way to go IMO, with a focus on fairness of competition.

DEFTLEFTHAND

There was an interesting programme on recently about the Soviet Union female athletes from the height of the Cold War era. Many were pumped full of hormones and steroids to compete in disciplines such as the shot putt and hammer throw.

The most worrying thing I took away from it was all the health issues and early deaths which followed for many of these women.

Do we fully understand the long term impacts of 'transitioning' so to speak. From a health perspective is it wise to continuously pump the body with hormones for years?

Doctors could have a lot of explaining to do some day.

abcabc123123

Pissartist wrote: »

she's only a woman if she has the xx chromosone,
otherwise it's a man

A person can have a Y chromosome and be a woman

abcabc123123

abcabc123123 wrote:

A person can have a Y chromosome and be a woman

Go on...

klaaaz

Wibbs wrote: »

Which proves that we've gone down the rabbit hole taking crazy pills as we fall. Fallon Fox is a biological male, tweaked by hormones(and surgery?) into a self identifying female. This is a biological, scientific, medical fact. Using current laws as an argument is ridiculous. Would you run to that argument twenty years ago when Fox would be defined by law and medicine and sporting bodies as a male? You would not.

So lets disregard the modern medical community in their study of transgender people and you as a poster on boards is right! :rolleyes: Fox is a medical transitioned transgender person, who went from male to female. This fact about transsexuals is recognised in the EU law, the EU where we live today and specifically in Ireland if you reside here.

Wibbs wrote: »

Caster is intersex. A biological medical condition. She is not a transexual. She is not a male who medically changed her hormone profiles to one approximating a female.

Doesn't matter one iota. Both types have the male physique where presented and Semenya in her case also has elevated testosterone levels, both types compete in female sport and yet one type is condemned(the transsexual) and the other(Semenya) is allowed to win Olympic gold medals over other female athletes for years.

.......

Matthais Schlitte.

Champion German arm wrestler, bone disorder, gives him a giant arm.



Is it legal? Yes.
Is it natural? Yes.
Its it fair? Probably not.

Pissartist

you are what you are born as, no surgery or identifying as something else will change that,
you can put make up on a pig, but it's still a pig.

As I said earlier, if we are to continue down this (frankly bizarre) rabbit-hole, in which biology is not important and one person's reality MUST be accepted by others, we should just scrap the divide in sport between men and women and let everyone compete against each other.

It is remarkable that we have gotten to this stage but unfortunately that's where we are.

I wonder if a heavyweight fighter who identified as a flyweight should be allowed to fight at that weight class?

abcabc123123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Go on...

Simplifying but the the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is responsible for initiating male sex determination. The SRY gene can be mutated or missing, in which case the person develops as a woman, albeit one without ovaries and will require treatment to go through puberty.

Pissartist

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Simplifying but the the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is responsible for initiating male sex determination. The SRY gene can be mutated or missing, in which case the person develops as a woman, albeit one without ovaries and will require treatment to go through puberty.

exactly how common is this, in % to the worlds population ?

Ash.J.Williams

This has nothing to with trans...

abcabc123123

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Simplifying but the the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is responsible for initiating male sex determination. The SRY gene can be mutated or missing, in which case the person develops as a woman, albeit one without ovaries and will require treatment to go through puberty.

Ah right. So that would be like me saying "Not everybody has two thumbs" and then pointing to a very rare case where someone was born without a thumb?

Not being flippant, but I am assuming that these are extremely rare cases?

Pissartist

all this trans and identifying as someone else, it's a mental illness in my opinion, nothing else

abcabc123123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah right. So that would be like me saying "Not everybody has two thumbs" and then pointing to a very rare case where someone was born without a thumb?

Not being flippant, but I am assuming that these are extremely rare cases?

It is rare. I don't think this a fair analogy given the context of the thread though. Generally speaking an XY chromosomal pair means male yea, but we're not speaking generally here, we're talking about a very specific minority of the population and how they should be treated.

This isn't the only scenario like this. There are others, eg CAIS. Developing into the adult male sex is not a simple binary determined by the presence of a Y chromosome alone; it occurs in stages, and it being nature there are many ways in which things do not go according to the norm. It is messy and complicated and defies simple answers.

RWCNT

Pissartist wrote: »

all this trans and identifying as someone else, it's a mental illness in my opinion, nothing else

The overwhelming consensus of those who actually study and understand mental illnesses runs counter to your opinion, so good on you for being brave and soldiering on with it.

Guy:Incognito

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Why the emphasis on nature, though? As Klaaz has pointed out, trans women actually deliberately lower their testosterone levels as part of the transitioning process.

It's literally the opposite of 'cheating', and although there may be some vestigial benefit (I don't know of any), nobody is seriously going to transition just to win a medal, especially knowing that such victories will always be tarnished in the eyes of some people.

People have been juicing themselves to the eyeballs resulting in early death for decades. If death isnt a barrier to doing whatever they can to win I dont see why gender reassignment wouldn't be something some would do.

Arghus

ceadaoin. wrote: »

She has no female reproductive organs and internal testes apparently. If this is true, she has basically been through puberty as a male and absolutely has an unfair advantage.It's not just about current testosterone levels It's not her fault, she has been raised from birth as a girl/woman, but it isn't fair on her competitors. I feel bad for everyone involved.

How do you know this?

Pissartist

RWCNT wrote: »

The overwhelming consensus of those who actually study and understand mental illnesses runs counter to your opinion, so good on you for being brave and soldiering on with it.

good on you for backing your point up with fact, oh wait

RWCNT

Pissartist wrote: »

good on you for backing your point up with fact, oh wait

My point is a fact. What do you mean?

Pissartist

RWCNT wrote: »

My point is a fact. What do you mean?

if you can't see the difference between a general sweeping statement and proven fact there is no point debating with you.But good on you for soldering on.

Wibbs

klaaaz wrote: »

So lets disregard the modern medical community in their study of transgender people and you as a poster on boards is right! :rolleyes:

I nor anyone else has to be "right", biology is the decider and this is first year biology level stuff. An otherwise physically healthy and developed person who is XX or XY is a woman or man respectively. Intersex folks have a fault in development and are not the same as Trans.

This is a biological fact and when a body like the HSE claims that they can through surgery and hormones change the actual gender of a human being that is not rational medical science, it is bordering on quackery. And until medical science can go in and change the human body right down to the cellular level it will remain so.

Fox is a medical transitioned transgender person,

I agree.

who went from male to female.

No they did not. They are as you wrote a medically transitioned transgender person, they did not change biological gender.

This fact about transsexuals is recognised in the EU law, the EU where we live today and specifically in Ireland if you reside here.

You do realise there are stupid laws? Ask any solicitor, or judge. Someone can change their gender on documents without any medical intervention and that means "legally" they're now the newly assigned gender. How does that work then? Magic?

RWCNT

Pissartist wrote: »

if you can't see the difference between a general sweeping statement and proven fact there is no point debating with you.But good on you for soldering on.

We arn't debating. You've offered nothing but an opinion, I'm stating the fact that the present consensus amongst medical professionals is that transgenderism is not considered a mental illness. The World Health Organisation doesn't class it as such. The American Psychiatric Association are a bit less cut and dry with it in fairness but also don't agree that being transgender necessarily constitutes a mental disorder.

See also from The Endocrine Society:

The Endocrine Society wrote: »

The medical consensus in the late 20th century was that transgender and gender incongruent individuals suffered a mental health disorder termed “gender identity disorder.” Gender identity was considered malleable and subject to external influences. Today, however, this attitude is no longer considered valid. Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.

Sources here if you're interested - https://www.endocrine.org/advocacy/priorities-and-positions/transgender-health

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

This has nothing to with trans...

This is AH. If a thread can't incorporate transgender people/travellers/dole scroungers/PC gone mad then it probably doesn't belong here.

klaaaz

Wibbs wrote: »

I nor anyone else has to be "right", biology is the decider and this is first year biology level stuff. An otherwise physically healthy and developed person who is XX or XY is a woman or man respectively. Intersex folks have a fault in development and are not the same as Trans.

This is a biological fact and when a body like the HSE claims that they can through surgery and hormones change the actual gender of a human being that is not rational medical science, it is bordering on quackery. And until medical science can go in and change the human body right down to the cellular level it will remain so.

So the HSE and the medical opinion around the world are full of quackery and your views are not. That's the stuff anti-vaxxers come up with. Educate yourself https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree. No they did not. They are as you wrote a medically transitioned transgender person, they did not change biological gender. You do realise there are stupid laws? Ask any solicitor, or judge. Someone can change their gender on documents without any medical intervention and that means "legally" they're now the newly assigned gender. How does that work then? Magic?

You've mixed up there, we're talking about transsexual athletes in particular not self ID people. Do you know the difference?

damowill

ceadaoin. wrote: »

She has no female reproductive organs and internal testes apparently. If this is true, she has basically been through puberty as a male and absolutely has an unfair advantage. It's not just about current testosterone levels It's not her fault, she has been raised from birth as a girl/woman, but it isn't fair on her competitors. I feel bad for everyone involved.

The results of her Gender test were never published although there have been leaks which suggest she has both male and female characteristics. I'm guessing this to be true, if she was 100% XX chromosome she would have published the findings. Also her lawyers in her case now state she was born a woman, reared and socialised as woman, legally recognised & competed as a women. While nobody disputes this they have not presented any scientific results to defend her with. The IAAF have chased this issue since 2009, so they must know the results and are trying to make the competition a fairer one for all involved,

Its very sad for the athlete. She has done nothing wrong. She continually says she is 'natural' but (un)fortunately in competition there are rules and categories for a reason & cannot allow for an unfair advantage.

Deebles McBeebles

RWCNT wrote: »

This is AH. If a thread can't incorporate transgender people/travellers/dole scroungers/PC gone mad then it probably doesn't belong here.

:eek:

:mad:





:rolleyes:

Franz Von Peppercorn

yamaha50 wrote: »

I am a black woman
Stop projecting your abnormal thoughts onto me please

Hmmm

Franz Von Peppercorn

To me this is different from a transgender case so I think she should compete.

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote: »

So the HSE and the medical opinion around the world are full of quackery and your views are not. That's the stuff anti-vaxxers come up with. Educate yourself https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

I see a lot of "feels" and "believes" in the HSE website you quoted when it comes to gender dysphoria. They say that "People who have gender dysphoria may believe that they were born into the wrong body. They often prefer to live as a member of the opposite sex"

Also in a different area of the HSE's website, it defines one of the symptoms of schizoprenia as "delusions - unusual beliefs that are not based on reality and often contradict the evidence"

Strange that one seems like it could be described as a mental condition and the other somehow isn't despite obvious similarities! It's like there was some kind of bowing to the vocal minority for fear of not being seen as "inclusive".

Franz Von Peppercorn

RWCNT wrote: »

We arn't debating. You've offered nothing but an opinion, I'm stating the fact that the present consensus amongst medical professionals is that transgenderism is not considered a mental illness. The World Health Organisation doesn't class it as such. The American Psychiatric Association are a bit less cut and dry with it in fairness but also don't agree that being transgender necessarily constitutes a mental disorder.

See also from The Endocrine Society:



Sources here if you're interested - https://www.endocrine.org/advocacy/priorities-and-positions/transgender-health

Basically what is defined as mental disorders are just political decisions anyways. The DSM generally keeps adding more disorders rather than taking them away. Biology isn’t relevant to a disorder I would have thought, as there are biological disorders like Schizophrenia.