ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

K.Flyer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

What exactly should she be tried with?

Member of a terrorist organization as described by the United Nations of which Ireland is a member, would be a starting point.

Boggles

mynamejeff wrote: »

member of a terrorist organisation , supporting terrorism same as the ****e bags that join our own terrorist organisations

Max sentence is 10 years AFAIK.

ohnonotgmail

K.Flyer wrote: »

Member of a terrorist organization as described by the United Nations of which Ireland is a member, would be a starting point.

ISIS is not a proscribed organisation in this country that i am aware of. It is proscribed in the UK but we are not the UK.

Boggles

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ISIS is not a proscribed organisation in this country that i am aware of. It is proscribed in the UK but we are not the UK.

There also seems to be some issue with some one leaving the country to join an "organisation".

We haven't fully adopted the EU resolution on this.

jam_mac_jam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

What exactly should she be tried with?

Whatever she has done. Lets talk to the local people where she was living and ask them. investigate as you would any war criminal. She wasn't over there baking cakes.

Boggles

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Whatever she has done. Lets talk to the local people where she was living and ask them. investigate as you would any war criminal. She wasn't over there baking cakes.

Can't imagine sending detectives to whatever part of the middle east she frequented would be

A. Popular.
B. Safe.
C. Even remotely doable.

jam_mac_jam

Boggles wrote: »

Can't imagine sending detectives to whatever part of the middle east she frequented would be

A. Popular.
B. Safe.
C. Even remotely doable.

Right. lets just let her off then. Its Syria, its not the moon. I am sure there are local investigations into war crimes and hopefully she will be charged there. If not then she should be charged here. You should have a read of some of what ISIS got into, it might change your can't be arsed attitude.

These people should not be allowed to get away with what they have done.

Boggles

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Right. lets just let her off then.

Well no. But let's just not be completely daft and send out our security services / police into places where they may actually be killed to interview people who may not actually exist.

ohnonotgmail

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Right. lets just let her off then. Its Syria, its not the moon. I am sure there are local investigations into war crimes and hopefully she will be charged there. If not then she should be charged here. You should have a read of some of what ISIS got into, it might change your can't be arsed attitude.

These people should not be allowed to get away with what they have done.

If she has committed war crimes then let the locals investigate. they are best place to do that.

jam_mac_jam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If she has committed war crimes then let the locals investigate. they are best place to do that.

Yes. That's what I said. I am sure there are local investigations into war crimes and hopefully she will be charged there.

jam_mac_jam

Boggles wrote: »

Well no. But let's just not be completely daft and send out our security services / police into places where they may actually be killed to interview people who may not actually exist.

Did I suggest that? I don't really think I did, but continue arguing with something I didn't say.

ohnonotgmail

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yes. That's what I said. I am sure there are local investigations into war crimes and hopefully she will be charged there.

I suspect though that you may be disappointed with the outcome. She wasn't on the frontlines carrying an AK.

jam_mac_jam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I suspect though that you may be disappointed with the outcome. She wasn't on the frontlines carrying an AK.

I suspect you might also be disappointed if its investigated what some of these women did in helping enslave Yasardi women or telling local women how to act. But that's ok if they weren't actually holding a gun.

You should google it. If you think that these women are not complicit because they were not holding a gun?

Boggles

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Whatever she has done. Lets talk to the local people where she was living and ask them. investigate as you would any war criminal. She wasn't over there baking cakes.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Did I suggest that? I don't really think I did, but continue arguing with something I didn't say.

Yeah you did. She is currently residing in a refugee camp.

Where she lived was an areas the size of Great Britain.

How do we talk to these "locals"?

Boggles

Islamic State group: Syria's Kurds call for international tribunal

SDF are again calling for help. They will be ignored though.

The administration's foreign affairs chief told me he felt the Kurds had been left to deal alone with the detention of IS members and their families with no plan in place as to what happens next. It has struggled to cope with even detaining the militants it has captured, let alone putting them on trial.

He said he had been hugely disappointed in countries who had revoked the nationalities of their citizens who had joined IS, saying the Kurds had already suffered so much loss in living under IS and then fighting the militant group.

His warnings were stark; that leaving dangerous members of IS in an unstable region held by an administration ill-equipped to process them was asking for trouble; and leaving children to remain surrounded by the harmful ideology into which they were born was storing up profound problems for the future.

jam_mac_jam

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah you did. She is currently residing in a refugee camp.

Where she lived was an areas the size of Great Britain.

How do we talk to these "locals"?

As I have said already - I am sure there are local investigations into war crimes and hopefully she will be charged there

Boggles

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

As I have said already - I am sure there are local investigations into war crimes and hopefully she will be charged there

There isn't.

There is the SDF trying to do their best.

They are focused on reconciliation and not vengeance.

jam_mac_jam

Boggles wrote: »

Islamic State group: Syria's Kurds call for international tribunal

SDF are again calling for help. They will be ignored though.

Hopefully they aren't as its unfair not to take them back and at the same time not to help try them. Western states can't really have it both ways.

mooreman09

Leave her there. She made her decision - one so grave that she doesn't deserve to row back on it.

Paddy Cow

end of the road wrote: »

i'm afraid it is ireland's problem.



none of that changes the fact that ireland will have to take her back.

She was big and clever enough to make her own way to Syria. If she's big and clever enough to find her way back then we're obliged to take her but I don't think the government should waste any money sending people over to "rescue" her.

Paddy Cow

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I suspect though that you may be disappointed with the outcome. She wasn't on the frontlines carrying an AK.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I suspect you might also be disappointed if its investigated what some of these women did in helping enslave Yasardi women or telling local women how to act. But that's ok if they weren't actually holding a gun.

You should google it. If you think that these women are not complicit because they were not holding a gun?

None of these women are innocent. They all have blood on their hands. Shamima Begum is on record as saying severed heads in bins didn't faze her. I saw another woman interviewed who had no problem with the rape of Yazidi women. Of course they will try and say now that they were just housewives and never took part directly and I believe them about as much as I believe all the captured men who are claiming to be cooks rather than soldiers

Deise Vu

Boggles wrote: »

Islamic State group: Syria's Kurds call for international tribunal

SDF are again calling for help. They will be ignored though.

My heart goes out to the Kurds. They were the only people with the guts to resist IS when even the Iraqi so-called army were handing over their weapons without a fight. Now that they have been the boots on the ground for a cowardly West, they are being left to sort out this clusterfck themselves.

Every foreigner who went to an IS controlled area knew exactly what they were letting themselves in for and letting us know they approve of beheading prisoners, mass slaughter of 'infidels', rape and enslavement. To pretend otherwise would be utterly ridiculous. Unfortunately though we cannot prosecute anyone under normal rules unless they all turn against each other and, even then, any kind of half decent barrister would get an acquittal for lack of evidence.

The problem in bringing someone like Lisa Smith back without charges is that she will be a lightening rod for trouble, both for herself and her adopted community. There are enough head cases around with issues with muslims without giving them a target that is actually deserving of their bile.

It's a disaster, I genuinely haven't a clue what should be done.

ohnonotgmail

Paddy Cow wrote: »

None of these women are innocent. They all have blood on their hands. Shamima Begum is on record as saying severed heads in bins didn't faze her. I saw another woman interviewed who had no problem with the rape of Yazidi women. Of course they will try and say now that they were just housewives and never took part directly and I believe them about as much as I believe all the captured men who are claiming to be cooks rather than soldiers

So they were aware of crimes but did not commit those crimes themselves? do i have that right? Do we normally convict people for being aware of the crimes of others?

Deise Vu

Paddy Cow wrote: »

None of these women are innocent. They all have blood on their hands. Shamima Begum is on record as saying severed heads in bins didn't faze her. I saw another woman interviewed who had no problem with the rape of Yazidi women. Of course they will try and say now that they were just housewives and never took part directly and I believe them about as much as I believe all the captured men who are claiming to be cooks rather than soldiers

You are wrong there, they weren't all cooks, a lot of them were driving ambulances and doing other humanitarian work.:cool:

jam_mac_jam

Paddy Cow wrote: »

None of these women are innocent. They all have blood on their hands. Shamima Begum is on record as saying severed heads in bins didn't faze her. I saw another woman interviewed who had no problem with the rape of Yazidi women. Of course they will try and say now that they were just housewives and never took part directly and I believe them about as much as I believe all the captured men who are claiming to be cooks rather than soldiers

There were also reports from the Yazidi women that they had helped but they will get away with it because they are women and didn't have a gun in their hands. In some ways they are worse then the men.

jmreire

Deise Vu wrote: »

You are wrong there, they weren't all cooks, a lot of them were driving ambulances and doing other humanitarian work.:cool:

Does not matter now what the isis follower's "claimed" Job description was..they were in 100% support of isis, this especially applies to people who traveled from all parts of the world ( like our Lisa) to be a part of the Caliphate. And now, they should be repatriated to their own Countries, if only to prevent them re-joining isis again, and having history repeat itself. Because isis is still alive and well, and possibly even more dangerous world wide than when they were concentrated in Syria and iraq.

Boggles

Deise Vu wrote: »

The problem in bringing someone like Lisa Smith back without charges is that she will be a lightening rod for trouble, both for herself and her adopted community. There are enough head cases around with issues with muslims without giving them a target that is actually deserving of their bile.

I'm not so sure Muslims in Ireland would like to adopt her either.

Strange thing to say.

jam_mac_jam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So they were aware of crimes but did not commit those crimes themselves? do i have that right? Do we normally convict people for being aware of the crimes of others?

We don't know what they did or did not do, that's the problem. It needs to be investigated and not assumed that just because they are women that they are innocent.


There have been cases of women being complicit in the kidnap of Yazardi women, this has been reported by those Yazardi women. A German women allowed a child slave to die of thirst. There were mass graves found, this is genocide we are talking about.


So we need to know before we assume that a woman does not commit war crimes.


We are talking about much more then knowing about crimes.

ohnonotgmail

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

We don't know what they did or did not do, that's the problem. It needs to be investigated and not assumed that just because they are women that they are innocent.


There have been cases of women being complicit in the kidnap of Yazardi women, this has been reported by those Yazardi women. A German women allowed a child slave to die of thirst. There were mass graves found, this is genocide we are talking about.


So we need to know before we assume that a woman does not commit war crimes.


We are talking about much more then knowing about crimes.

well clearly we do need to know much more but based on what we do know she has not committed any crimes.

jam_mac_jam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well clearly we do need to know much more but based on what we do know she has not committed any crimes.

I would have thought being a member of ISIS is a crime in the same way as being a member of the IRA is but other then that, no we do not know if she has or has not committed crimes.