ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

skooterblue2

jmreire wrote: »

At the moment, the Kurds are under enormous pressure with the Nrs of isis refugees in the camp Al-Haul that they are controlling. They have already asked for an International Tribunal to be set up to try these people and pass judgement on them...but so far no sign of this happening.For sure, the Kurds are not in a position to keep this camp running indefinitely...they will search and check every single individual for any crimes that they may have committed against the Kurd's / Yazidi's, and they will deliver their own form of justice to any that they find.

They are looking for international people for the Tribunal? I have extensive experience of dodgy jury duty, that makes me aptly qualified to sit on the tribunal. I will be out there with half a side of bacon and a FAL. I dont want the poor Kurds to suffer having to be extend their hospitality to ISIS for too long. I hope they put me on the same panel as a few Russian.

https://blogbaladi.com/how-russia-responded-to-the-kidnapping-of-four-soviet-diplomats-in-beirut-in-1985/

ohnonotgmail

joeguevara wrote: »

That would be the normal practice however its not an absolute process. We have numerous provisions to enable pre-trial detention especially where its the case of public interest and security.

It would actually be a pretty straightforward as you would have to outline that there is a strong possibiligty that the alleged perpetrator may use the media platform toi promote her own agenda which may instil fear into the public community and that right would trump a right to liberty because of a presumption of innocence.

Remind me of the people we have detained under this provision? Bearing in mind that nobody here can say what she might actually be even charged with.

skooterblue2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Remind me of the people we have detained under this provision? Bearing in mind that nobody here can say what she might actually be even charged with.

Its not like it hasnt happened here before. We have had internment here in WW2, for both members of the IRA. British interned Germans and other people associated with the Axis powers. So did the Americans with the Japanese. Its only to protect the national interest.

ohnonotgmail

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its not like it hasnt happened here before. We have had internment here in WW2, for both members of the IRA. British interned Germans and other people associated with the Axis powers. So did the Americans with the Japanese. Its only to protect the national interest.

Congratulations. ISIS could not have asked for a better recruitment tool. The IRA can tell you that

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Congratulations. ISIS could not have asked for a better recruitment tool. The IRA can tell you that

This is the reality of the situation.

As a mature woman, she knowingly chose to travel to Syria and become a "Bride" of a terrorist group that made other terrorists look positively humane!

As a bare minimum, she approved of, and conspired to become a part of this group, by marrying into it. Again, I emphasise that she was a mature woman, not an idealistic 14 or 15 year old.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for her, though her child doesn't deserve to suffer for her actions.

In an ideal world, I'd say she MIGHT be willing to share important information.
Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world, she doesn't appear to think she has done anything wrong, and there are plenty of ISIS members already jailed in European Countries who can be questioned with a view to understanding radicalisation.

Accordingly, she is of little, if any, benefit to this Country.

So, if we are legally obliged to take her back, so be it.
But, imo, she should not be allowed freedom. She is guilty of joining a terrorist organisation.

From a psychological viewpoint, she is not what any normal Irish person would regard as mentally stable - if she were, she would never have joined the psychopaths that are ISIS.

So, whether on legal, or psychological grounds, she should be locked up. What should not happen is that she is free to roam the streets.

Unfortunately, she probably will be let roam freely. I just hope she doesn't either harm someone here, or spread the poisonous ideology that led her to Syria in the first place. ..

Gatling

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Congratulations. ISIS could not have asked for a better recruitment tool. The IRA can tell you that

Actually the biggest recruitment tool for the Provo's was bloody Sunday ,not internment.


Maybe the EU can fund our own 'Gitmo somewhere for the like of Isis and their facilitators and financial backers ,

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the reality of the situation.

As a mature woman, she knowingly chose to travel to Syria and become a "Bride" of a terrorist group that made other terrorists look positively humane!

As a bare minimum, she approved of, and conspired to become a part of this group, by marrying into it. Again, I emphasise that she was a mature woman, not an idealistic 14 or 15 year old.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for her, though her child doesn't deserve to suffer for her actions.

In an ideal world, I'd say she MIGHT be willing to important .
Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world, she doesn't appear to think she has done anything wrong, and there are plenty of ISIS members already jailed in European Countries who can be questioned with a view to understanding radicalisation.

Accordingly, she is of little, if any, benefit to this Country.

So, if we are legally obliged to take her back, so be it.
But, imo, she should not be allowed freedom. She is guilty of joining a terrorist organisation.

From a psychological viewpoint, she is not what any normal person would regard as mentally stable - if she were, she would never have joined the psychopaths that are ISIS.

So, whether on legal, or psychological grounds, she should be locked up. What should not happen is that she is free to roam the streets.

Unfortunately, she probably will be let roam freely. I just hope she doesn't either harm someone here, or spread the poisonous ideology that led her to Syria in the first place. ..

ISIS is not a proscribed organisation in this country so she is not guilty of that.

And i am sure that you and many others have performed your own psychoanalysis of her but i doubt any qualified professional would agree with you.

ohnonotgmail

Gatling wrote: »

Actually the biggest recruitment tool for the Provo's was bloody Sunday ,not internment.


Maybe the EU can fund our own 'Gitmo somewhere for the like of Isis and their facilitators and financial backers ,

Internment was a massive recruitment tool for the ira along with an excellent training camp.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ISIS is not a proscribed organisation in this country so she is not guilty of that.

And i am sure that you and many others have performed your own psychoanalysis of her but i doubt any qualified professional would agree with you.

They're not terrorists? Who knew?


As to my "psychoanalysis" - are you suggesting that travelling to Syria with the objective of marrying an unknown person, whom you are fully aware is a member of an incredibly savage, murderous group, - is remotely normal, sane, behaviour?

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

They're not terrorists? Who knew?

ISIS are not a proscribed terrorist organisation. I'm not sure how much plainer i can put it so you understand.

Deleted User wrote: »

As to my "psychoanalysis" - are you suggesting that travelling to Syria with the objective of marrying an unknown person, whom you are fully aware is a member of an incredibly savage, murderous group, - is remotely normal, sane, behaviour?

i think you have a warped idea of what insanity entails.

Pintman Paddy Losty

I was reading in the paper that the army is badly struggling to retain people. Would they not take her in again and leave her there then. They'd get a new recruit and save on the cost of deploying her overseas?

Signore Fancy Pants

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

I was reading in the paper that the army is badly struggling to retain people. Would they not take her in again and leave her there then. They'd get a new recruit and save on the cost of deploying her overseas?

That almost makes as much sense as the posters who say Lisa Smith hasn't broken any laws because ISIL isnt a proscribed terrorist organisation in Ireland....they don't understand the big picture.

:pac:

Lunatics.

ohnonotgmail

Dale Doback wrote: »

That almost makes as much sense as the posters who say Lisa Smith hasn't broken any laws because ISIL isnt a proscribed terrorist organisation in Ireland....they don't understand the big picture.

:pac:

Lunatics.

somebody else who just doesn't understand that wanting something to be illegal does not make it so

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ISIS are not a proscribed terrorist organisation. I'm not sure how much plainer i can put it so you understand.



i think you have a warped idea of what insanity entails.

Where did I use the word "proscribed"?
I said she went to Syria to join a terrorist organisation - I'm not sure how much plainer I can phrase it - unless you want the definition of the word "terrorist"?


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-therapy/200907/the-definition-insanity-is

Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

I would suggest that the "fantasy" of the perfect state, vs. the very clear evidence of the utter brutality being perpetrated in the name of ISIS is the perfect definition of being unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.

Either that, or Ms. Smith approved of the wanton slaughter that ISIS engaged in, which would strongly suggest psychopathic tendencies.

Either way, her mental state, as a mature woman with no previous links to Syria, certainly needs to be examined. The choices she made certainly couldn't be described as "normal".

It's interesting, though, that you are so dismissive about it.

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did I use the word "proscribed"?
I said she went to Syria to join a terrorist organisation - I'm not sure how much plainer I can phrase it - unless you want the definition of the word "terrorist"?


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-therapy/200907/the-definition-insanity-is

Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

I would suggest that the "fantasy" of the perfect state, vs. the very clear evidence of the utter brutality being perpetrated in the name of ISIS is the perfect definition of being unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.

Either that, or Ms. Smith approved of the wanton slaughter that ISIS engaged in, which would strongly suggest psychopathic tendencies.

Either way, her mental state, as a mature woman with no previous links to Syria, certainly needs to be examined. The choices she made certainly couldn't be described as "normal".

It's interesting, though, that you are so dismissive about it.

Maybe that would explain it so....Lisa was mentally unbalanced, and that was why she did as she did....According to her Friends, she definitely changed from a fun loving, enjoying a night out having a few beers type of "Normal Irish " individual to one who completely changed 360° to become almost reclusive....even her Muslim friends saw change in her. She became more Muslim than the Muslims themselves. Definitely, something happened to her. But in any case... she would not be the 1st person who was taken in by caliphate propaganda, only to discover what the caliphate promised and the reality were two entirely different things.

K.Flyer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

somebody else who just doesn't understand that wanting something to be illegal does not make it so

Well the minister for justice says..

Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan wrote:

"Ireland has strong counter-terrorism laws which provide for prosecution here of terrorist offences committed outside the State"

From what I've read, if it can be shown that she was active in any way, she can or will face criminal prosecution here.
Given the fairly recent videos showing armed women in battle and her military background, to paraphrase Charlie Flanagan, "...she hardly went over on her holidays"

skooterblue2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ISIS is not a proscribed organisation in this country so she is not guilty of that.

And i am sure that you and many others have performed your own psychoanalysis of her but i doubt any qualified professional would agree with you.

So how would you describe ISIS? They are not a regular army. They are not an army of any legitimate country. It is a mystery where they get funding and arms from. They definitely arent an Islamic version of the Irish Countrywomens Association. How would you describe them? Just young muslim lads letting off a bit if steam?

jmreire

K.Flyer wrote: »

Well the minister for justice says..



From what I've read, if it can be shown that she was active in any way, she can or will face criminal prosecution here.
Given the fairly recent videos showing armed women in battle and her military background, to paraphrase Charlie Flanagan, "...she hardly went over on her holidays"

Well, all will be answered when she gets back to Ireland ( and believe it or not...IMHO, that easier said than done, under the circumstances ) but trying to prove what she has done, or not, will be one hell of a job. You can be 100% sure that the Kurds are going through all of these isis survivors with a fine tooth comb, and I am sure that more than 1 or 2 of them have been tried, sentenced and killed. Of course, the Kurds may not have been able to prove anything against Lisa....which only means that no one recognized her or associated her with committing atrocities, which she may or may not have done. But if the Kurds cannot prove anything against her ...going to be pretty hard for her to be tried here in Ireland for possible crimes committed thousands of miles away.

skooterblue2

jmreire wrote: »

You can be 100% sure that the Kurds are going through all of these isis survivors with a fine tooth comb, and I am sure that more than 1 or 2 of them have been tried, sentenced and killed. Of course, the Kurds may not have been able to prove anything against Lisa....which only means that no one recognized her or associated her with committing atrocities, which she may or may not have done. But if the Kurds cannot prove anything against her ...going to be pretty hard for her to be tried here in Ireland for possible crimes committed thousands of miles away.

I really dont think we should bother ourselves with the Kurds. That would be interfering with the justice systems of another country outside the EU. We wouldn't like it if another country was interfering in the Justice systems of our country, like an American senator or Governor advocating for a popstar or a fashion designers niece who "lost their ****" 10,000 feet over Ireland.

This is clearly a Kurdish matter and we should send her a Good Luck card and two thumbs up from the Department of Foreign Affairs like they did with the Peru Two

rgossip30

Well if it is not illegal to be a member of IsIs it should be for obvious reasons.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did I use the word "proscribed"?
I said she went to Syria to join a terrorist organisation - I'm not sure how much plainer I can phrase it - unless you want the definition of the word "terrorist"?


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-therapy/200907/the-definition-insanity-is

Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

I would suggest that the "fantasy" of the perfect state, vs. the very clear evidence of the utter brutality being perpetrated in the name of ISIS is the perfect definition of being unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.

Either that, or Ms. Smith approved of the wanton slaughter that ISIS engaged in, which would strongly suggest psychopathic tendencies.

Either way, her mental state, as a mature woman with no previous links to Syria, certainly needs to be examined. The choices she made certainly couldn't be described as "normal".

It's interesting, though, that you are so dismissive about it.

well when we are talking about incarcerating people then proscribed is the most important word.

ohnonotgmail

K.Flyer wrote: »

Well the minister for justice says..



From what I've read, if it can be shown that she was active in any way, she can or will face criminal prosecution here.
Given the fairly recent videos showing armed women in battle and her military background, to paraphrase Charlie Flanagan, "...she hardly went over on her holidays"

and if it cannot be shown that she was active in any way what then?

Boggles

skooterblue2 wrote: »

It is a mystery where they get funding and arms from.

It isn't, it is well documented how they funded themselves.

Mainly oil.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I really dont think we should bother ourselves with the Kurds. That would be interfering with the justice systems of another country outside the EU

The Kurds don't have a justice system that the EU recognize.

---

I would bet there is a lot more to this women's story then we know of.

Apparently the Guards flagged her to the Security Forces in 2011.

It's absolutely bizarre given her background she would be radicalized to the point of actively joining a death cult.

If she is not charged with a criminal offence, she will need to monitored properly, too many things just don't add up.

K.Flyer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and if it cannot be shown that she was active in any way what then?

That will be up to the Dept. of Justice, although she has said that she is expecting some form of disciplinary action against her, so maybe the Dept. know more than anyone here does.

skooterblue2

Boggles wrote: »

The Kurds don't have a justice system that the EU recognize.

---

I would bet there is a lot more to this women's story then we know of.

Apparently the Guards flagged her to the Security Forces in 2011.

It's absolutely bizarre given her background she would be radicalized to the point of actively joining a death cult.

If she is not charged with a criminal offence, she will need to monitored properly, too many things just don't add up.

That is why we cannot interfere, it is their country and their system. If it is decided that she was combatant of part of a cell, that a Kurdish matter. Same as with the Peru Two. Their country their system, Our country our system.

Well she certainly doesn't look like deep cover G2 material.

Boggles

skooterblue2 wrote: »

That is why we cannot interfere, it is their country and their system. If it is decided that she was combatant of part of a cell, that a Kurdish matter.

And if it is decided by the SDF she is "innocent" and released she should be allowed back in to Ireland, no questions?

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Same as with the Peru Two. Their country their system, Our country our system.

The Kurds don't have a country, that's a key difference and an important one.

skooterblue2

Boggles wrote: »

And if it is decided by the SDF she is "innocent" and released she should be allowed back in to Ireland, no questions?



The Kurds don't have a country, that's a key difference and an important one.

That is firstly a matter for the Syrian DF, It is another matter if we want an ISIS mum with background in western military training back into Ireland.

Kurds/ Syrian / Big Toon army, does it really matter when you are up in front of Military court. I have never had the pleasure but I know a few who have and the best of them have fairly unsympathetic to the pleas of "Me gran had just died and I was AWOL" and "I failed to turn up for guard duty because you couldnt contact me". The auld "I was just left the hotel to go buy a choc ice in the souk" story wont wash here.

skooterblue2

K.Flyer wrote: »

That will be up to the Dept. of Justice, although she has said that she is expecting some form of disciplinary action against her, so maybe the Dept. know more than anyone here does.

The Department of Justice knew well what she was upto and when she was out there. They are intouch with other intelligence agencies as shown by Edward Snowdon and Chelsea Manning.

"Hey Dublin, Do you have anything to add to our file on Shiek Halawa?"
"Hey Langley this is Inspector Mossy Hennessy in the park here, shure dont we have a file half an inch on him, I'll have it sent over in squad with the sirens on"
"No, need just send it over in the morning by courier, by any chance you want wire tapping transcripts of Pearse Doherty in New York?"
"Aww shure G'wan, it will make great reading"

Boggles

skooterblue2 wrote: »

That is firstly a matter for the Syrian DF, It is another matter if we want an ISIS mum with background in western military training back into Ireland.

Kurds/ Syrian / Big Toon army, does it really matter when you are up in front of Military court. I have never had the pleasure but I know a few who have and the best of them have fairly unsympathetic to the pleas of "Me gran had just died and I was AWOL" and "I failed to turn up for guard duty because you couldnt contact me". The auld "I was just left the hotel to go buy a choc ice in the souk" story wont wash here.

She wasn't in the Kurds, Syrian or Toon Army.

She was in the Irish Army but she resigned in 2011. She wasn't AWOL.

skooterblue2

Boggles wrote: »

She wasn't in the Kurds, Syrian or Toon Army.

She was in the Irish Army but she resigned in 2011. She wasn't AWOL.

I said I had known other people who were up in front of Military courts and they were dealt with harshly. An associate of mine was back late for duty from a funeral and missed duties. You can be court martialed for very small infactions. Do you seriously think they are going to pass over a western soldier out there under suspicious circumstances? She also has no protection from the Geneva convention (if you seriously think it holds any weight) as she will be tried as a member of an international brigade. There are serious questions as to was she a combatant. If she was she can be tried by a military court. They can try her as POW for war crimes.

I am sending her two thumbs up and the best of luck with that one.