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Bank Account drained

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  • #32
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,751 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    coylemj wrote: »
    And well you might, but I'd have serious concerns that someone with no mandate from you presented them with a DD and they paid it.
    Again, financial institutions have no access to mandates. Creditors do not send mandates to them. The Creditor literally supplies an IBAN and an amount, and says "we have authorisation to take this money".

    If I have your IBAN, I can use it to (for example) pay my electric bill and there's nothing your bank/credit union can put in place to stop it

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  • #33
    coylemj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    28064212 wrote: »
    Again, financial institutions have no access to mandates. Creditors do not send mandates to them. The Creditor literally supplies an IBAN and an amount, and says "we have authorisation to take this money".

    That makes sense if you're talking about a company like the ESB or Vodafone but I can't for the life of me understand how an Irish credit union would accept a DD out of the blue from Luxembourg.

    And there was zero verification involved, other than that they supplied a valid account number. The OP's credit union is basically telling him that anyone who knows his account number can submit a DD and they will pay it.


  • #34
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,751 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    coylemj wrote: »
    That makes sense if you're talking about a company like the ESB or Vodafone but I can't for the life of me understand how an Irish credit union would accept a DD out of the blue from Luxembourg.
    What if that company is a multinational like Amazon or Paypal? Luxembourg is a popular financial capital. And even if it was the ESB or Vodafone, what difference would that have made to the OP? Someone could still have accessed money armed with just their IBAN.
    coylemj wrote: »
    And there was zero verification involved, other than that they supplied a valid account number. The OP's credit union is basically telling him that anyone who knows his account numer can send in a DD and they will pay it.
    Not "anyone". Anyone that is an authorised creditor. Becoming a direct debit originator is not easy

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  • #35
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    To update, the CU have recalled the payments, and are in contact with PayPal and the bank in question..they agreed it looked fraudulent..

    Reasonably pleased with the outcome..

    What is PayPal's involvement?


  • #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Call me Al wrote: »
    What is PayPal's involvement?

    The reference number given made it look like it might be a PayPal account the money was going into,..


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  • #37
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    28064212 wrote: »
    Again, financial institutions have no access to mandates. Creditors do not send mandates to them. The Creditor literally supplies an IBAN and an amount, and says "we have authorisation to take this money".

    If I have your IBAN, I can use it to (for example) pay my electric bill and there's nothing your bank/credit union can put in place to stop it

    They can out in place a system where all DDs need to be approved to allow payment. That's what I have on the accounts I pay them from.


  • #38
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,751 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    McGaggs wrote: »
    They can out in place a system where all DDs need to be approved to allow payment. That's what I have on the accounts I pay them from.
    Which has to be specifically requested to be set up by the customer. By default, all accounts which allow direct debits allow all requests

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  • #39
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    28064212 wrote: »
    Which has to be specifically requested to be set up by the customer. By default, all accounts which allow direct debits allow all requests

    No, it's the default with this bank that all DD payments must be approved by the customer.


  • #40
    MOH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    28064212 wrote: »
    Again, financial institutions have no access to mandates. Creditors do not send mandates to them. The Creditor literally supplies an IBAN and an amount, and says "we have authorisation to take this money".

    If I have your IBAN, I can use it to (for example) pay my electric bill and there's nothing your bank/credit union can put in place to stop it

    They should still have the mandate reference through which the payment was authorised.


  • #41
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,751 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    MOH wrote: »
    They should still have the mandate reference through which the payment was authorised.
    Which is supplied and created by the creditor, and has no meaning to the bank. It's not something they can look at and say "this might be fraudulent"

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  • #42
    MOH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    28064212 wrote: »
    Which is supplied and created by the creditor, and has no meaning to the bank. It's not something they can look at and say "this might be fraudulent"

    No, but it's the start of a paper trail. In my case, the provider had gone back to my bank months after I'd cancelled my mandate with both them and the bank, and started taking payments under a new mandate. The bank were able to provide me with the mandate reference which proved this. I wasn't in any way blaming the bank for accepting the mandate on faith, it's the massive flaw in the way the old DD+ scheme worked, some companies have been abusing the system for years. Not sure how much it's changed under SEPA.

    But if they'd turned around and said "we can't tell you anything about why this payment left your account", like the CU did in this case, I wouldn't have been happy. And if they couldn't produce a mandate reference at all, there'd clearly be a problem there.


  • #43
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,751 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    MOH wrote: »
    No, but it's the start of a paper trail. In my case, the provider had gone back to my bank months after I'd cancelled my mandate with both them and the bank, and started taking payments under a new mandate. The bank were able to provide me with the mandate reference which proved this. I wasn't in any way blaming the bank for accepting the mandate on faith, it's the massive flaw in the way the old DD+ scheme worked, some companies have been abusing the system for years. Not sure how much it's changed under SEPA.
    But I was responding to someone who thought it was impossible for funds to be taken with just an IBAN. Tracing it isn't a problem, I was addressing the point that there's nothing the CU could have done to prevent it in the first place (without a instruction from the account owner in the first place).
    MOH wrote: »
    But if they'd turned around and said "we can't tell you anything about why this payment left your account", like the CU did in this case, I wouldn't have been happy. And if they couldn't produce a mandate reference at all, there'd clearly be a problem there.
    That's not what the CU did in this case though

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  • #44
    MOH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    28064212 wrote: »
    But I was responding to someone who thought it was impossible for funds to be taken with just an IBAN. Tracing it isn't a problem, I was addressing the point that there's nothing the CU could have done to prevent it in the first place (without a instruction from the account owner in the first place).


    That's not what the CU did in this case though

    I give up, if you think the CU's initial response was acceptable, I'm done arguing


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