Tenants overstaying their notice indefinitely. Want my house back to sell.

Cat_M

Any advice here please. I gave my tenants due notice - 9 months informally and then 6 formally as per statutory requirements as I need to sell. They were due to move out next week and I had services booked up to get place painted, cleaned, skip ordered etc. Not to mention time booked off work for both my husband and I in order to get house ready for market ASAP. I got a call 2 days ago from tenants to inform me that they'd paid deposit on a new build, it's 6-8 weeks away from being ready and basically, sorry about that. No such thing as asking to stay on for a few weeks. Of course I am a total soft touch, accidental landlord, who never put up their rent despite it being hundreds below the market rent as rents were way lower from they moved in. I had planned to inspect the property at the weekend in order to scope out what needs doing so as to be ready for the following week and am keeping that appointment. They say they've nowhere to go in the meantime and as they could not get a rental, decided to explore buying. But I didn't know any of this and thought they were leaving. I even reminded them of the arrangement dates of 1. Inspection and 2. Date for return of keys etc a few weeks ago so it was all crystal clear. So now i feel like I have no control over getting my keys back as they will day they have nowhere to go. What should I do? I need a definite date as I don't want to waste any time from them vacating property to getting it ready for sale for obvious reasons. I'm not living near it and don't want it unoccupied for any real length of time etc I had my date to work with and now it's all up the air. Their lease expired at the start of the month.

amcalester

Check the RTB site and follow their process, stick to it to the letter even if the overholding tenants tell you they’ll be gone in a few weeks.

If they are, then you’re only delayed a few weeks. If they don’t then you’ve started the process to evict.

The tenant should also be paying rent during the overholding.

airy fairy

amcalester wrote: »

Check the RTB site and follow their process, stick to it to the letter even if the overholding tenants tell you they’ll be gone in a few weeks.

If they are, then you’re only down a few weeks rent. If they don’t then you’ve started the process to evict.

Agree.
Start your process as early as possible, employ a solicitor so you are doing everything correctly, even the advice from the rtb can be hazy and I've found them to give incorrect information on several occasions.
From now on, do everything by letter or preferably text now, save all conversations.
Inspect your property as much as you can to keep an eye, give correct notice to do same.
Do not accept any more rental payments as this can be seen by the courts that you were willing to extend the rental contract.
I really hope they will be gone soon, but will advise you to prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

Cat_M

airy fairy wrote: »

Agree.
Start your process as early as possible, employ a solicitor so you are doing everything correctly, even the advice from the rtb can be hazy and I've found them to give incorrect information on several occasions.
From now on, do everything by letter or preferably text now, save all conversations.
Inspect your property as much as you can to keep an eye, give correct notice to do same.
Do not accept any more rental payments as this can be seen by the courts that you were willing to extend the rental contract.
I really hope they will be gone soon, but will advise you to prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

I thought at the very least they need to pay rent! Why should they be able to stay on for free??!

rightmove

Op very similar to me. I was ready to go the prtb route knowing they would never pay another penny but just to get them out.

Ironically when my ll asked me to leave it was all informal and I couldn't find anywhere to rent so i bought instead. One of the parties decided to delay signing and i needed another 2 weeks on addition to 3 months notice but since we had a decent relationship it was all good.

My tenant had 15 months notice (reissued due to statutory declaration not included) and still clearing out their stuff.

Do unto others as you expect them to do unto you must only exist in the bible tbh

road_high

6-8 weeks? A likely story I’d say!

GGTrek

OP around 3 business days before expiry of termination notice open RTB dispute for overholding (adjudication, don't bother with mediation it is useless). Provide tenants phone number and email. RTB will call the tenants within a week and they will understand that you are dead serious.

If you had out of pocket expenses due to overholding, put evidence in the submission and ask the RTB adjudicator to award them to you against the tenant. This will focus the mind of the overholding tenant to get out. You are lucky in just one fact: your tenants have money to loose since they pay their own rent. They are liable for rent until the day they hand over the keys so abdolutely do not let them off the hook for rent and ask adjudicator to state it either in the agreement or else in the determination order.

This is Ireland and overholding has become the norm and incentivated by the lax legislation enforcement.

I hope your termination notice was prepared and served correctly. If you do not know how to raise a dispute and prepare a submission I would strongly suggest hiring a tenancy law solicitor (you cannot charge the legal fees to ypur tenants at the RTB). You can PM many of the posters in this thread and they will be able to suggest one.

Good luck

Ultimate Seduction

I'm amazed at the amount of landlords on boards.is renting for 100s below the market average.

airy fairy

Cat_M wrote: »

I thought at the very least they need to pay rent! Why should they be able to stay on for free??!

Unfortunately, tenants seem to think that once you decide you want to sell your house, they can have free accommodation until they are evicted.
In a roundabout fashion, Threshold give advice to tenants as to how long the eviction process is, and to stay put in the property.
The rtb work extremely slow, especially in urban areas. It can take months for a hearing, and then a tenant doesn't turn up it goes on longer. At no time is the tenant made accountable.
It took me almost to year to get my tenant out.
Almost a year of unpaid rent, missed hearings and eventually court, employing a barrister at the end.
House left in an awful state, as i wasn't allowed into the property.
And in all that time, I was told by rtb that even though the tenant was overholding, paying no rent, he had all his tenant rights intact.
€15k owing and almost a year to get him out.

1874

in that case airy fairy the OP should at least receive rent otherwise why would the tenant ever leave,if you did otherwise that was foolish and given you lost a significant amount of money shows it likely incentivised your tenants to overhold. OP seek legal advice, it sounds like thus could be genuine but in the meantime you are still entitled to rent especially if it's below market rate, if you use a notice to quit legally and correctly that does not entitle the tenant to not pay nor does it suggest you don't want them to leave, just that you are being paid until they do, just the same as when they rented under both parties agreement. don't bring up, suggest or even hint at a reduction or payment to get them out, if they are genuinely delayed or just genuine and decent they won't suggest it. If they do brush it off and remind them they were well under market rate and that you couldn't afford the mortgage if that was the case, hence why never divulge real details to a tenant (anything like you have no mortgage or anything relate to costs).krep your discussions with them civil, dont give them a reason or excuse to back away from being on speaking terms, be careful not to change how you deal with them, so don't start getting ratty or not picking over details you didn't pass comment on or notice before, as you've been renting you'll likely have to do a refresh anyway for sale and you could likely write that cost off, if the tenants did say they would overhold or were advised to, let them know you'd pursue it even if you wouldn't, ask them if they'd like someone to do that to thier new home and to them, remind them that whoever gave them that advice wouldn't be the one who'd be brought to court and had a judgement against them, don't ever bring it up first as you may offend them if they hadn't considered it or you might give them ideas, such are the vagaries of navigating the rental market for tenants and landlords by a system foisted upon both sides by a reckless careless and unconcerned state and other bodies, i suggest perhaps reading Sun Tzu.

handlemaster

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

I'm amazed at the amount of landlords on boards.is renting for 100s below the market average.

They shouldn't do it. Always get the max rent. They would never get any thanks for charging below market value/ or not up ing the max each year

airy fairy

1874 wrote: »

in that case airy fairy the OP should at least receive rent otherwise why would the tenant ever leave,if you did otherwise that was foolish and given you lost a significant amount of money shows it likely incentivised your tenants to overhold. OP seek legal advice, it sounds like thus could be genuine but in the meantime you are still entitled to rent especially if it's below market rate, if you use a notice to quit legally and correctly that does not entitle the tenant to not pay nor does it suggest you don't want them to leave, just that you are being paid until they do, just the same as when they rented under both parties agreement.

My ex tenant refused to pay rent the minute I correctly notified him that I was selling up.
But he still received his rental allowance from the state, and did not pass it on to me.

I was told that legally, after the notice to vacate date has expired, if the LL continues to take rental from the tenant while waiting the process of the rtb, the LL is in effect, carrying on the rental agreement by taking rent.

I'd be surprised that the tenant in this case will be gone on 6 to 8 weeks, I'd be further surprised that rent will continue to be paid while the LL starts a case with rtb to evict.

1874

no offence but that seems like very bad advice and I don't know how it would suggest you want them to stay or that it confers any new tenancy as you have given notice to quit, there is nothing to suggest an overholder cannot pay and in fact I'm sure I've read examples here where it was a further reason to evict, tenants would be in breach of a lease if not paying end of story, unless you consented to it which would be foolish and a dangerous precedent to start, you should have pursued that tenant and got a line or judgement on their income or assets, even if only a fiver a month, i would do my best to destroy someone that tried to make off with an agreed amount without consent. I in factors threaten to make a judgement against a former tenant in the end if they did not leave, i lists few thousand I knew I'd never recover but I in the end I told them I'd write it off if they left promptly otherwise I'd take legal action, even if it never meant I'd get a penny, i informed them they'd probably have difficulty getting any loans or credit for the rest of their life, they left asap. All the while I was civil with them but OP don't go nuclear (ie angry) but do go formal, initiate the legal process of eviction but just tell them that's to stay formal and legal for both parties, that way the ball is rolling, you could even tell them how happy you are for the tenants ie be civil and cordial.

drunkmonkey

Take the excuse away, find them a rental. Surely someone on air b and b would rent them for 2mts or you know someone with a vacant house.

bigpink

Just suddenly found a house to buy and be in it in 6 to 8 weeks??

airy fairy

I'm.just telling what my experience was.
From the very start of my process I did everything that was requested and legally above board.
Easy to say you can persue an ex tenant for anything that's owed when the tenant owes thousands in utility bills, has summons for road traffic offences in the post, and has put everything in his wife's name. Oh yeah, my lovely tenant stopped paying bin charges the day he was given notice. Almost 12 months of nappies, rubbish etc left behind in rooms in the house. A beautiful 4 bed house, turned to a dump.
I am trying to persue him, a year on from getting him out, but as the judge said to me on the day of the last court case, sorry, but I don't think you'll see a cent from him.
It's been exhausting.
And if I can get a euro per week for years, I will, it's the principal. But no shows in court, absconding, other debtors, while he's on social, I'll have a long wait!

airy fairy

bigpink wrote: »

Just suddenly found a house to buy and be in it in 6 to 8 weeks??

I hope it is true... but....

Cat_M

airy fairy wrote: »

I hope it is true... but....

I checked out the details and rang estate agent and apparently the house is waiting on snagging so it does sound like it will be that timeframe ISH. I told the estate agent my situation and she said he'd paid the deposit a while back and that he should have told me.

So it's it that he suddenly bought, just didn't tell me. I wondered about asking for near market rent for the overstaying that might incentvise him to get into new home asap. Estate agent said plenty of people are putting pressure on to get their keys cos of rental agreements etc.

What do you think? He knows I have not put up the rent so he's been saving a fortune and so was able to gather his deposit. Meanwhile I need to sell to get my deposit to buy. I'm an accidental landlord. This is my only property but I had to move for family reasons, couldn't sell due to negative equity but now can and want to buy here now where we are planning to settle. It's really annoying that everything is on hold as we have been literally counting the weeks to get house back and sell. Especially in the current economic climate.

pwurple

I would hold tough.

How can you increase the rent without a new lease or agreement? That would invalidate your notice period. You would need to have that penalty built into the contract from the start of their tenancy.

They should have told you, it does indeed suck. But, at least they are paying the rent, and 6 weeks is another month and a half. They are motivated to leave if they have another house, they will want to pay their mortgage, not rent anymore.

They also have possession of a very expensive asset you own... and they can make your life very difficult indeed if you start acting the maggot when they are also under stress. They can do far more damage than a deposit will cover, overhold, get utilities disconnected etc etc.

Cool the jets, and ask to be kept informed on progress on a weekly basis so you can plan.

amcalester

The RTB site says the tenant should continue to pay rent while overholding, and acceptance of same by the landlord is recognition of an on-going tenancy.

tretorn

I served notice on tenants about two weeks ago and I havent heard anything from them since.

Would it be a good idea to make contact with them to ask what their plans are.

1874

amcalester wrote: »

The RTB site says the tenant should continue to pay rent while overholding, and acceptance of same by the landlord is recognition of an on-going tenancy.

Its an ongoing tenancy as long as the tenant is there regardless of any end of tenancy that was initially agreed, or any notice to quit, the landlord doesnt really have any say in that, that doesnt negate the fact that legal/legitimte notice to quit has been issued and it doesnt mean a new tenancy (new 4/6 years) has started based on the fact the state has offloaded responsibility for housing in the main onto private landlords, this seems to be for both social housing and everyone else looking to rent.
I know councils still have their own properties and housing associations, but I dont think the numbers are what they were.

The_Conductor

In the OP's case- as they have confirmed that the tenant *is* buying the property- the deposit was paid some time back- and they're simply waiting on a final snagging- the best bet is simply to try to tie them down to dates. In the intervening period of time- in the interests of good will- I'd suggest the tenant facilitate an inspection by the landlord- as they genuinely want to sell. Its a game of give and take- both sides need to be flexible on this- the tenant obviously isn't interested in moving between now and moving into their new home- in in both their interests that they help each other out on this one.

OP- I'd bite my tongue- I don't think there is any need to go formal- I think you should see about both you and the tenant being flexible with one another.

I'd also desperately try to get a better idea of actual time frames from the tenant- cognisant of the fact that move-in dates are movable feasts. However- the tenant isn't going to want to pay rent- and a mortgage simultaneously- so its in their interests to push this too.........

Talk to one another- both sides have a mutual interest in the tenancy not being prolonged?

rightmove

airy fairy wrote: »

My ex tenant refused to pay rent the minute I correctly notified him that I was selling up.
But he still received his rental allowance from the state, and did not pass it on to me.

Same here. This country is a banana republic

road_high

rightmove wrote: »

Same here. This country is a banana republic

It’s a total welfare state as well

badboyblast

What a joke of a country, what would happen if you went down and pulled someone out of a house and changed the locks ?

The_Conductor

badboyblast wrote: »

What a joke of a country, what would happen if you went down and pulled someone out of a house and changed the locks ?

You'd certainly receive a large fine- and depending on whether you used force to pull them out of the house- you could very possibly receive a lengthy sentence for common assault.

marieholmfan

rightmove wrote: »

Same here. This country is a banana republic

You should get out of the game. You've fierce bad luck.

4ensic15

rightmove wrote: »

Do unto others as you expect them to do unto you must only exist in the bible tbh

Do unto others as they would do unto you.

rightmove

4ensic15 wrote: »

Do unto others as they would do unto you.

Exactly. Anything for the op???

TheChizler

Have you told them you can't manage the extra duration and you have people lined up to come in? I might be picking it up wrong but it sounds like they rang up and when you didn't resist they thought you were OK with it. They might be reasonable and leave if you put your foot down. Maybe not but worth a try.