New Staff Member Won't Listen.

jeremyj1968

Hi everybody,

When hiring for a junior position in our office, I was warned about Eastern European workers being what a friend described euphemistically as being "independently thinking". We hired an Eastern European guy, and he is a very likeable upbeat guy who everybody gets on with - BUT the guy just wont take instruction.

It's getting to the point at this stage that I can't trust him to do anything. If I ask him to do something, he's always got a "better way". I tried to just gently dissuade him at the start, and offer reasons why he needed to do it our way, but I just end up pulling rank on him these days as otherwise I will spend half the day arguing with him. Most seriously, there have been cases where he has been out with customers and actually criticised the way some of our other staff have done work.

I genuinely like the guy and would really not like to have to fire him, as it would affect his family financially. But it's come to the point that he really isn't of any value to the company. Any suggestions on how I should proceed? He is a full time employee. thanks.

beauf

I can only commiserate. I've worked with someone exactly like that. Likable person, but I can't stand over anything they do, so refuse to get involved with any of their projects. I expect at some point there will be some epic disaster and I want to have no connection to it.

Twenty Grand

beauf wrote: »

I can only commiserate. I've worked with someone exactly like that. Likable person, but I can't stand over anything they do, so refuse to get involved with any of their projects.

Same, you could spend 30 minutes telling them why their way is wrong and they'll just keep doing it.

EverythingGood

jeremyj1968 wrote: »

Hi everybody,

When hiring for a junior position in our office, I was warned about Eastern European workers being what a friend described euphemistically as being "independently thinking". We hired an Eastern European guy, and he is a very likeable upbeat guy who everybody gets on with - BUT the guy just wont take instruction.

It's getting to the point at this stage that I can't trust him to do anything. If I ask him to do something, he's always got a "better way". I tried to just gently dissuade him at the start, and offer reasons why he needed to do it our way, but I just end up pulling rank on him these days as otherwise I will spend half the day arguing with him. Most seriously, there have been cases where he has been out with customers and actually criticised the way some of our other staff have done work.

I genuinely like the guy and would really not like to have to fire him, as it would affect his family financially. But it's come to the point that he really isn't of any value to the company. Any suggestions on how I should proceed? He is a full time employee. thanks.

Not sure what nationality has to do with it and firing some one for being foreign is a no no. You need to frame your case less xenophobically.

OldMrBrennan83

EverythingGood wrote: »

Not sure what nationality has to do with it and firing some one for being foreign is a no no. You need to frame your case less xenophobically.

Firing someone for being foreign? They've plainly stated they're not doing work as instructed and this would be the reason if they've to be let go. Work not up to scratch or of no benefit to the company? Should be gone.

If you're desperate for some posturing about a problem that isn't there then I can recommend Twitter.



_

TheQuietFella

Keep it local as I always say!!!

I remember many years ago a few guys raging because they were paying tax!
Who is paying for the house that you're living in and all the benefits that you
are receiving they were quickly asked but that's a different story!

mfceiling

Ha ha...This is the problem we have in our line of work with Eastern Europeans. You show them exactly what has to be done and how it has to be done and immediately they will show you how it can be done differently!!
We had a Romanian guy who we nicknamed "show you a trick buddy" because his way was "always" better than your way!!
Current job is on its 3rd phase. We've ironed out most of the problems we had in the first two phases and things are going well. A new Lithuanian guy started last Monday and we talked him through exactly what had to be done, why it has to be done a certain way and the steps for doing it. Came back an hour later and he had done it his way because our way was "very stupid way". Problem is tomorrow when the electrician goes to set out for his lighting program, every single runner will clash with his lights!! Very stupid way indeed.

OldMrBrennan83

EverythingGood wrote: »

Not sure what nationality has to do with it and firing some one for being foreign is a no no. You need to frame your case less xenophobically.

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Keep it local as I always say!!!

I remember many years ago a few guys raging because they were paying tax!
Who is paying for the house that you're living in and all the benefits that you
are receiving they were quickly asked but that's a different story!

Though, now THERE'S your xenophobia

beauf

That's true. I've met a few Irish who do the same. But it seems very common in some nationalities. I wonder is it a cultural thing. It's a very inflexible mindset. The ones I've met with this issue are highly educated and experienced. But just don't seem to take on board other people's advice. To the point where they struggle with problem solving and often run themselves into problems they can't fix without someone else's help. They keep doing it because they don't learn from it.

It's a bit like those people who do great academically but struggle with real world problems and practicalities.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Holy sweeping generalizations batman...

Hedgelayer

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Same, you could spend 30 minutes telling them why their way is wrong and they'll just keep doing it.

Are they getting the work done ?

Or are you trying to change someone to fit into your version of how others should be ?

There's a lot of different ways to do things, in my line of work it doesn't matter how it's done,as long as health and safety procedures are adhered to at all times.

He's a full time employee, a solicitor would wipe the floor with ye if it went as far as him taking you to court for unfair dismissal.

The first thing asked will be why did ye give him a full time position knowing he wasn't up to standard.

It sounds very messy, maybe change his position so he can do it his way,as long as nobody is hurt or upset.

It sounds like he's a likable fellow, so he has to be good at something.

mrsdewinter

This is an interesting work problem - but pinning the problem on his nationality doesn't help. In fact, if it becomes known that you believe his work issues are due to his personality, you could find yourself in hot water, OP. This is something you need to thrash out with him. Ask for a meeting, be very clear about what you've observed (mention that dissing your way of doing things to clients is not on) and how you expect him to behave differently. Take good notes after the meeting. Maybe have a quiet word with HR to keep them in the picture & for a few tips.

Twenty Grand

Hedgelayer wrote: »

Are they getting the work done ?

Nope.

Or are you trying to change someone to fit into your version of how others should be ?

Our business is very procedural. You need to follow the procedure.

There's a lot of different ways to do things, in my line of work it doesn't matter how it's done,as long as health and safety procedures are adhered to at all times.

In my line there's a right way and a wrong way.

He's a full time employee, a solicitor would wipe the floor with ye if it went as far as him taking you to court for unfair dismissal.

For what? Id never sack him it's because he's Eastern European. I'd sack him because the work is wrong. This is just a trend I've noticed I'm my limited dealings with Eastern Europeans and in no way a generalization. I thought it was a language problem at first, but my comments are just plain being ignored.

The first thing asked will be why did ye give him a full time position knowing he wasn't up to standard.

He was perfectly qualified on paper to do the job.

It sounds very messy, maybe change his position so he can do it his way,as long as nobody is hurt or upset.

He'll likely be managed out in the next few months.

It sounds like he's a likable fellow, so he has to be good at something.

He's a decent chap, just no talking to him when he's a "better" idea in his head

..

Ursus Horribilis

Have you warned him? As in, started down the dismissals procedure in your workplace. Maybe knowing he's heading into P45 territory might make him change his tune.

khaldrogo

EverythingGood wrote:

Not sure what nationality has to do with it and firing some one for being foreign is a no no. You need to frame your case less xenophobically.

No they don't
Not even a little bit. PC culture gone fcuking loopy.

The poster is giving context by telling us the nationality. Maybe it's part of how they work in that country.

Hedgelayer

Twenty Grand wrote: »

..

You're not the op or are you a sock puppet ?

EverythingGood

khaldrogo wrote: »

No they don't
Not even a little bit. PC culture gone fcuking loopy.

The poster is giving context by telling us the nationality. Maybe it's part of how they work in that country.

Doesn't matter "how they work in that country" - framing a potential sacking around he wont listen cos hes foreign is a cert for a unfair dismissal case.

Hedgelayer

EverythingGood wrote: »

Doesn't matter "how they work in that country" - framing a potential sacking around he wont listen cos hes foreign is a cert for a unfair dismissal case.

He'd definitely clean them out.
I've seen it before, a company giving someone a full time job, letting them away with bad working standards for a long time, then pulling the rug from underneath them.

It goes to court and the barrister on the defendant s side wipes the floor with the company.

khaldrogo

EverythingGood wrote:

Doesn't matter "how they work in that country" - framing a potential sacking around he wont listen cos hes foreign is a cert for a unfair dismissal case.

That's not what he said or how he said it.

Context: he's 'X'

Problem: he won't listen

Sacking reason: he won't listen.


If you are getting anything else from this post I suggest you have a look at yourself.

killbillvol2

khaldrogo wrote: »

No they don't
Not even a little bit. PC culture gone fcuking loopy.

The poster is giving context by telling us the nationality. Maybe it's part of how they work in that country.

Eastern Europe is a country?

Twenty Grand

Hedgelayer wrote: »

You're not the op or are you a sock puppet ?

I posted a comment sharing my similar experience, you replied to me, I replied to you?

EverythingGood

khaldrogo wrote: »

That's not what he said or how he said it.

Context: he's 'X'

Problem: he won't listen

Sacking reason: he won't listen.


If you are getting anything else from this post I suggest you have a look at yourself.

If that what was said, thats fine, but it was framed around where the person is from. Which is wrong in employment law.

Hedgelayer

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I posted a comment sharing my similar experience, you replied to me, I replied to you?

Sorry my mistake, I should have read it right instead of jumping to conclusions.

How did your experience work out ?

Did ye sack them ?

I'm not taking any side's I'm being the devil's advocate here, because I have seen it before.

People who look great on paper, great at interviews pleasant etc

But absolutely atrocious worker's.

One guy in particular who was able to play the game, dashing good looks and charm, funny and impeccable time keeping.

But absolutely shoite at his job, constantly making a mess of things.

Able to twist anything to his advantage, he was like a Ted Bundy without the killer instinct.

Supposedly he slept his way through the company, eventually a new lady started he thought he could charm her.
He couldn't take no for an answer, she got him on harassment....

They usually mess up.

beauf

It amazing how people on boards can drag a discussion off topic so fast these days, usually to attack or browbeat other posters instead of the topic at hand. It far more common on boards than any other forum I've used.

I would assume that anyone firing someone would be careful not to make a mess of it and stick to the specific issues effecting their performance at work. That said you do read so many cases in the news of employers not doing it. So I guess its no harm in over stating it.

alexmalalex

I think this is an issue of communication, above all else.

I'd recommend a structured meeting with the employee. I wouldn't beat around the bush, I'd explain that you are not satisfied that he is not following instruction, and thereby not creating value for the company. In the meeting i would say that if this continues, he might be a better "fit" at another company. Most importantly I would suggest that a follow-up meeting in a month to review progress. This clearly signals he is on probation.

I'd also probe the reasons why he is not following instruction. Is it possible, for instance, that he has good ideas about how to improve the sales process. That conversation will help get to the root cause - yes it is a better process, but it doesn't fit here because X, Y, and Z.

As other have said, take detailed notes, and make sure you end a summary of the meeting minutes and action steps to the employee.

If the bad behavior continues, I'd then get HR involved and ask them to attend the follow-up meeting.

jeremyj1968

beauf wrote: »

I would assume that anyone firing someone would be careful not to make a mess of it and stick to the specific issues effecting their performance at work.

Hi guys and thanks for all the responses. Firstly on the race issue, I don't care where the guy is from if he can do the job. The only relevance of him being Eastern European is just to beat myself up over the fact that I WAS told not to hire somebody from Eastern Europe by a friend as he had experienced the same issues that I am currently experiencing - but of course, I knew better

I guess the question is really for two reasons.
a) steps on how to get the employee to change his behaviour - which I think is not possible at this stage.
b) steps to take in preparation for letting the guy go, without ending up in court.

thanks again for the responses. I will speak to him in this week and have a word. I want him to stay, but work is becoming impossible.

jeremyj1968

EverythingGood wrote: »

Doesn't matter "how they work in that country" - framing a potential sacking around he wont listen cos hes foreign is a cert for a unfair dismissal case.

The work he is doing would be no different in his own country, it would be essentially the same all over the world. The work is NOW done differently even within the four walls of our office!

Ursus Horribilis

Is there a HR where you work? Do you have disciplinary procedures?

CalamariFritti

Well in fairness the OP could have left the bit out where it says 'I was warned about Eastern Europeans...'. Not saying there is anything xenophobic in him/her, I mean the guy was hired after all, but this is boards so if thats what you start a thread with then you gonna get these comments. And while its over the top to drag the thread into that direction it was a bit of an unnecessary comment, too.

Of course if someone just doesn't listen what they are told, then they need a talk, then a warning and then maybe shown the door no matter where they're from.

jeremyj1968

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Is there a HR where you work? Do you have disciplinary procedures?

No HR. Small enough business. I don't want to give too much detail, but no HR department.

Ursus Horribilis

Does it have disciplinary procedures?