Does Owen Keegan have a point re homeless?

n97 mini

BBFAN wrote: »

How will he survive?

I'm sure he'll survive fine. Point was that he's on a 200k pension is fake news.

For Forks Sake

Deleted User wrote: »

Cars for staff?

I'd doubt it, most staff cars these days are leased.

hatrickpatrick

enricoh wrote: »

Saw some protest in dublin at the weekend protesting against a hotel being built n arguing that social housing should be built instead! Great business plan!

The problem with your argument is seeing the running of a democratic society as a "business".

hatrickpatrick

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Which government stopped building social housing?

FF wasn’t it?

Last year was the most social houses built in 20 years.

FF stopped it, FG never resumed it. Both are equally complicit.

And given that the building of social housing directly by councils stopped in and around the late 1990s, "the most social houses built in 20 years" really isn't anything to be proud of. We need a building project on the scale of the 1930s when Herbert Simms was in charge.

MFPM

Gatling wrote: »

The secret is rock up to your local council self declare your homeless from there move into a hotel indefinitely with zero contribution to your indefinite stay and zero untilities indefinitely .

Such a hard life isn't it

Tell you what, why don't you try it and come back and inform us how great it is. :rolleyes:

MFPM

lawred2 wrote: »

Is anyone remotely surprised any more?

Just another slush fund..

Nothing in comparison to the massive subside of the private rental industry, the REITs and the massive land giveaway but yeah let's focus on housing charities because it's all their fault....

touts

touts wrote: »

Jesus that is a shocking report. Out of 24 million raised they only spent 7.2m providing services to clients and buying houses. The rest of the money went on wages and administration. Of that close to 15 million went on wages and pensions for the staff of the "charity". 387 employees on the books? Holy hell. What are they all doing? It's like the civil service on steroids.

I posted this in a previous thread a few weeks ago:

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He’s right……homelessness has become a business for certain groups. It is in their interest to bang this particular drum in the media as often and as loud as possible because this is their bread and butter. These guys would be out of a job if we eradicated homelessness.

https://www.pmvtrust.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Approved-and-Signed-PMVT-Audited-Accounts-for-2017-Excluding-income-and-expenditure.pdf

Total employment costs for 2017 – €14.9million (page 24)
Total state funding – €14.4million (page 11)

Think about that for a second. Every penny the Government gives these guys, plus the first half a million raised via collection, plus the €200k used to fund tht collection (also page 13) is spent on staff salaries and pensions. Before a cup of tea or a sleeping bag or a pair of dry socks is handed out, they take the first €15million+.

If they didn’t exist, and that €15 mill was handed out to an organisation that already receives funding that covers the wages (or vice versa), it would all go towards where it’s needed (barring a small % increase in the number of staff they'd have to employ).

Scandalous, really.

Edit: I am in no way disparaging the great work that people do for PMCVT. But when homeless people would be better off to the tune of €15,000,000 then questions have to be asked.

Absolutely outrageous.

Of course Owen Keegan has a point.

Some emergency accomodation consists of adults having their own bedroom for 70 euro per week, with no utility bills, and some food included.

Jesus lads, it's not rocket science.

But the problem isn't that emergency accomodation exists, the problem is that private rental accomodation is simply not affordable. We must do more to address the failure of the private sector do deliver social/affordable housing. Its that simple.

Re-zone. Compulsorily purchase. End land hoarding.

Ends.

Wheeliebin30

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Of course Owen Keegan has a point.

Some emergency accomodation consists of adults having their own bedroom for 70 euro per week, with no utility bills, and some food included.

Jesus lads, it's not rocket science.

But the problem isn't that emergency accomodation exists, the problem is that private rental accomodation is simply not affordable. We must do more to address the failure of the private sector do deliver social/affordable housing. Its that simple.

Re-zone. Compulsorily purchase. End land hoarding.

Ends.

Hilarious when people say we need to build like the 1930s yet never mention the coating nowadays,

To build something like that now would cost 30 billion.

Like seriously we have or had a fiscal space of 500 million to play with before the nurses strike this year.

But yeah we will just magic up 30 billion euro.

Wheeliebin30

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

FF stopped it, FG never resumed it. Both are equally complicit.

And given that the building of social housing directly by councils stopped in and around the late 1990s, "the most social houses built in 20 years" really isn't anything to be proud of. We need a building project on the scale of the 1930s when Herbert Simms was in charge.

FG never resumed it even though there was 4,000 social houses built last year and 8,000 delivered overall?

So that’s a lie straight off.

Are you saying FG should have started building social houses when they took over during the biggest recession ever and when we had thousands of empty houses lying around with no one wanting to live in them????

Not to mention the IMF here to watch us because we hadn’t a pot to piss in??

Sheep breeder

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

https://www.pmvtrust.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Approved-and-Signed-PMVT-Audited-Accounts-for-2017-Excluding-income-and-expenditure.pdf

That's actually shocking. Page 23

14 Million on Staff Costs out of 24 Million.

How many houses would you get for that.

The head of this trust father Pat is on huge money for one person, this is not a charity more like a business with 60% going to staff before anything is done about homelessness.

Always Tired

no, he doesn't have a point, it was a disgusting 'let them eat cake' type of comment. not really much point starting a thread on it though OP as you have long had your mind made up about everyone who gets any state help, going all the way back to the water charge protest days.

yes, the homeless have it far too good in this country. we should take away everything these people have. oh, they have next to nothing. well then we'll give them a bed to sleep on but if they use it too much we'll take it away. that'll learn em.

Ireland is a country where we are very lucky to have social safety nets. unfortunately, it is also a very difficult place to 'raise your station' as it were. one person 'refuses' an offer of a flat and suddenly the homeless are spoiled. get a grip.

Keyzer

touts wrote: »

He is 100% correct and I applaud his bravery to be one of the few voices willing to stand up and speak the truth on Irish media. Welfare has evolved from a last ditch safety net to instead be a viable career and lifestyle choice.

Many of the homeless here have chosen to be homeless as part of a long term life plan. For the young of the "welfare class" 3-4 years going through "homelessness" is just as much part of their welfare "career" path as spending 3-4 years going to college is part of a normal career path for the young of working and middle classes.

The young woman who was then interviewed on Sean O'Rourke's show who admitted she turned down an apartment proves that. She turned down a 1 bed apartment because it wouldn't be suitable for her in a few years when her son was older. No sense of her seeing it as a temporary stepping stone to something better. No concept of going to college and getting a job and saving for a house like most people have to. No. She wanted a forever house now that would sustain her and her family through a life on welfare and that was the limit of her ambition and desire.

If her and her ilk were told to like it or lump it then we'd find the level of homelessness would plummet. In that respect Mr Keegan is absolutely correct and seems to be the one person in the civil service conscious of not wasting taxpayers money.

This is the greatest thing I've ever read on Boards.

Sums up my thoughts more coherently than I ever could myself.

Fann Linn

Keyzer wrote: »

This is the greatest thing I've ever read on Boards.

Sums up my thoughts more coherently than I ever could myself.

Easily impressed or what!

Necro

lawred2 wrote: »

Is anyone remotely surprised any more?

Just another slush fund..

Half the problem in Ireland is the under-regulation of these 'charities'.

A quick Google shows just how many different ones are operating just in Dublin.

If the funding for these guys was cut and put into affordable housing instead it might make some tangible difference.

The history of these type of organisations shows that while some do some Trojan work, the vast majority are just another way to board the gravy train.

Ireland has an obsession with quangos for every facet of our existence.

Always Tired

Keyzer wrote: »

This is the greatest thing I've ever read on Boards.

Sums up my thoughts more coherently than I ever could myself.

I'll bet that's what a lot of future Nazis thought when they first heard Adolf Hitler give a speech.

It's absolute codswallop. No child is brought up to think that they are part of a 'welfare class' and that becoming homeless is some rite of passage. the red top papers stick a few of the cases they know people will tut tut and shake their head about, like 'she refused a flat because it only had 1 BR' or whatever because reactionary dolts will eat it up. they create a big bad dolie boogieman for you to rail against and you go along with it.

Wheeliebin30

So just on the radio, since the council scrapped families getting priority for housing if they are homeless the number has decreased by 36%!!!

36% yes.

And we’re told no one is or was gaming the system??

Haha I’ve said it for years and years.

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Hilarious when people say we need to build like the 1930s yet never mention the coating nowadays,

To build something like that now would cost 30 billion.

Like seriously we have or had a fiscal space of 500 million to play with before the nurses strike this year.

But yeah we will just magic up 30 billion euro.

Yes but why would it cost billions? Because of the laws of supply and demand.

The obvious solution is to enhance supply. Rezone, compulsorily purchase land. Abolish vat on housing for ten years. Suddenly the curve shifts.

corner of hells

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So just on the radio, since the council scrapped families getting priority for housing if they are homeless the number has decreased by 36%!!!

36% yes.

And we’re told no one is or was gaming the system??

Haha I’ve said it for years and years.

Years and years ?

Family Hubs only opened in March 2017 , the issue with families abusing that system only became significant in late 2017 and 2018 and was highlighted by service providers then .

Wheeliebin30

corner of hells wrote: »

Years and years ?

Family Hubs only opened in March 2017 , the issue with families abusing that system only became significant in late 2017 and 2018 and was highlighted by service providers then .

It is and was happening for years.

corner of hells

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It is and was happening for years.

It became a significant issue when the Family Hubs were opened.
To stay in a family you must engage with staff with a view to sourcing private rented accommodation.

What happened was that conditions were so good in some of the hubs , families tried to brazen it out and stay indefinitely.

Prior to the hubs you stayed in hotels or B&B's with practically no support staff .

Idbatterim

We are humans. Of course they will push for the most favorable outcome! Blame the morons that have created the system, entitlement culture and continue to push for the welfare vote and further boosting the welfare state. Fg included...

MFPM

Keyzer wrote: »

This is the greatest thing I've ever read on Boards.

Sums up my thoughts more coherently than I ever could myself.

Might I politely suggest you broaden your reading horizons and educate yourself with some facts, you might then see it for what it is - unsubstantiated, opinionated condescension.

Always Tired

Always Tired wrote: »

no, he doesn't have a point, it was a disgusting 'let them eat cake' type of comment. not really much point starting a thread on it though OP as you have long had your mind made up about everyone who gets any state help, going all the way back to the water charge protest days.

yes, the homeless have it far too good in this country. we should take away everything these people have. oh, they have next to nothing. well then we'll give them a bed to sleep on but if they use it too much we'll take it away. that'll learn em.

Ireland is a country where we are very lucky to have social safety nets. unfortunately, it is also a very difficult place to 'raise your station' as it were. one person 'refuses' an offer of a flat and suddenly the homeless are spoiled. get a grip.

Having been the recipient of welfare on a couple of occasions, I’m only too aware of its benefits. It was a crutch when I needed it. I did not view it as a lifestyle choice.
I sourced my own home, in an area I could afford, not an area I wished to live in and funded it from my own wages.
The homeless crisis seems to be centered mostly in Dublin, where most of the homeless “Charities” are based. Stop paying millions to groups who duplicate services and put it into one central government agency and build homes.
If people are genuinely homeless and unemployed, then they cannot be fussy about where they live-within reason.
I’m sorry if my being an advocate of one being self reliant and willing to pay ones way offends you. It’s just the way I am. My culture, if you like.

Keyzer

MFPM wrote: »

Might I politely suggest you broaden your reading horizons and educate yourself with some facts, you might then see it for what it is - unsubstantiated, opinionated condescension.

Calm down will ye, it was tongue in cheek comment.

Boggles

Another thread demonizing the homeless by the Fine Gael massive.

All legit.

Carry on.

markodaly

Boggles wrote: »

Another thread demonizing the homeless by the Fine Gael massive.

All legit.

Carry on.

Well, there is more than one way to stick your head in the sand.

Ush1

Boggles wrote: »

Another thread demonizing the homeless by the Fine Gael massive.

All legit.

Carry on.

Term hijacked beyond all recognition.

Kivaro

At least Mr. Keegan's comments has started a real discussion on the imaginary homeless "crisis" in Ireland.
It must incense many socialists that word is finally getting out about the realities of this "crisis". Lots of "charities" feeding from an enormous trough, which is overflowing at the brim; constantly filled by the Irish tax payer and gullible people who donate.

One of these days, we may even be surprised to see an Irish media outlet actually doing an investigation into these homeless charities, or as I like to call them ......... cartels.

doolox

There does not appear to be one single powerful agency with the necessary powers to do anything about this problem.

I do not think Ireland on its own will solve the homelessness problem. All western democracies seem to have similar if not worse problems and they cannot solve them.

Conventional housing as we used to know it has become too dear for most average workers of average earnings and capacities. This is because of dearer land, dearer wages and costs, higher specs and materials, more insulation and technical demands being placed on modern buildings than before.

Even increased safety and procedural inspections and oversight add to costs but these are necessary to keep workers safe.

The unpleasant truth is that in former times building workers were poorly paid, unpensioned and had unsafe working conditions. However the houses built were solid basic structures but were hard to heat and keep dry. Houses now are dearer because a lot of insulation and sealing out rain takes place at the initial stage to save money in heating bills later. This all costs more than in former times and makes new houses dearer upfront than old houses.

In the 1970's and 80's a problem existed in urban areas of getting basic housing for workers in the IDA factories then being built and staffed in Ireland. The government formed the NBA, national building agency, to build very basic housing at relatively lower cost than totally private housing could provide.

These were stripped down to the very basic needs, no chimneys or fireplaces, no plumbed central heating, air blown central heating to the front 4 rooms only and front and back walls were of extremely light construction, basic single glazed wooden windows and doors. Such houses would not be built today because of sustainability concerns and demand by government for higher spec housing. They would not get planning permission. They did get workers into some form of basic shelter in relative privacy and are infinitely better than the damp and dangerous hotel rooms, hostels and cardboard boxes used by todays' homeless people. Much retrofitting was needed to these houses but this could be done gradually over time as finances improved.

The government imposes heavy regulation on hours worked, child minding arrangements, planning restrictions, over elaborate housing specs and planning denials and then expects the average person to house themselves. Worse still they overtax low paid people and over regulate small business so that many can no longer hire people in the way they used to, putting more people on the road to homelessness.

It now takes two full time middle earning, mostly double degree holding people to afford the smallest house in Dublin. They need to have tiny families to do this. They need the free services of a parent for childminding in many cases. Otherwise within the M50 you will not get a house. Many people resort to long commutes in order to get housed but not everybody has the capacity to run a car and public transport areas command a high premium outside the reach of many. All capital cities and large urban areas have to provide some element of publicly funded and subsidised housing in order to accommodate junior level workers and non professional workers needed in every community. Otherwise you will have to do without services or pay higher wages for basic services.
Employers in the future will have to house their workers like many had to in the past.Local authority housing will have to make a comeback.

mariaalice

Kivaro wrote: »

At least Mr. Keegan's comments has started a real discussion on the imaginary homeless "crisis" in Ireland.
It must incense many socialists that word is finally getting out about the realities of this "crisis". Lots of "charities" feeding from an enormous trough, which is overflowing at the brim; constantly filled by the Irish tax payer and gullible people who donate.

One of these days, we may even be surprised to see an Irish media outlet actually doing an investigation into these homeless charities, or as I like to call them ......... cartels.

Not when you have decided you already know the answer, The charities NGO are not a con but they have morphed in to far more than their original remit which is not a bad thing as society has changed however they still solicit money on the basis that there helping an elderly alcoholic who is down on his luck and sleeping rough.

They would be better off rebranding themselves as providing support to vulnerable people who cant house themselves or who will need support all their lives to house themselves.

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So just on the radio, since the council scrapped families getting priority for housing if they are homeless the number has decreased by 36%!!!

36% yes.

And we’re told no one is or was gaming the system??

Haha I’ve said it for years and years.

Which council has done this, I hadn't heard anything?

overkill602

I totally agree with his comments dont like the guys policy on motoring.
The goverment should assist the new underclass who dont claim anything and pay for the entitled welfare everything.
Back in 2010 we had 12% unemployment welfare costing 20billion in 2018 we are about 6% still the same.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which council has done this, I hadn't heard anything?

Dublin City Council.

It isn't a policy aimed at families, as far as I know, priority has been abolished for all homeless people.

jmayo

touts wrote: »

Jesus that is a shocking report. Out of 24 million raised they only spent 7.2m providing services to clients and buying houses. The rest of the money went on wages and administration. Of that close to 15 million went on wages and pensions for the staff of the "charity". 387 employees on the books? Holy hell. What are they all doing? It's like the civil service on steroids.

Sheep breeder wrote: »

The head of this trust father Pat is on huge money for one person, this is not a charity more like a business with 60% going to staff before anything is done about homelessness.

I posted up the figures on staff because I think they need to be posted everytime that guys name and his trust are mentioned.

What I find surprising is that people are surprised.


This is the way most charities work in Ireland.
They are jobs for the lads paid for usually by a nice chunk of government funding, tappinig some benefactors and some public fundraising, usually pulling on the heartstrings.
The next time someone shoves a collection tin in front you, know that you are probably paying for them, their boss, the boss of that person and so on.
That is why I now only ever pay into a couple of charities such as fundraising for hospice.

It is a great setup because it is hard for people to ask questions.
The media doesn't want to be caught targeting a charity, neither does the politicians.
And how can anyone dare question anyone that has the best interests of the poor, the disabled, the mentally ill.
The latest one is the poor refugees. :rolleyes:

It is a fooking con.

Necro wrote: »

Half the problem in Ireland is the under-regulation of these 'charities'.

A quick Google shows just how many different ones are operating just in Dublin.

If the funding for these guys was cut and put into affordable housing instead it might make some tangible difference.

The history of these type of organisations shows that while some do some Trojan work, the vast majority are just another way to board the gravy train.

Ireland has an obsession with quangos for every facet of our existence.

The Irish state and it's institutions have a long history of absolving itself of actually doing it's job.

That was why the church got such a hold in education and healthcare.
The state, the civil service, the polticians wanted it that way.
It was easier, cheaper and a lot less hassel.

Now that the church has gone out of building schools and hospitals just look at the foojking mess being made out of it.
We can't build fecking schools without them having to be rebuilt a few years later.
We can't build a new childrens hospital without it costing billions nad taking decades.

We are fooking useless as a state.

We should have been building social housing, but no it was eaier and more convenient to either just pay rental long term to private landlords, coincidentally something most politicians are, or just let some co called charity step into ctahc those unable to even afford rentals.

And when the shyte does come out we give the usual connected lads a cushy well paid job to come up with some report that of course blames no fooker at all.

Fook sake this country is a joke.
And yes I would have left long ago, but for family reasons.

Boggles

overkill602 wrote: »

Back in 2010 we had 12% unemployment welfare costing 20billion in 2018 we are about 6% still the same.

The Social Protection budget is not just about the "dole".

In 2010 "Working Age income supports" was 7.4 billion, this year it's 3.19 billion.

Pensions are 8 billion this year, the largest expenditure in the budget, they were 5.9 billion in 2010.

Mad_maxx

Necro wrote: »

Half the problem in Ireland is the under-regulation of these 'charities'.

A quick Google shows just how many different ones are operating just in Dublin.

If the funding for these guys was cut and put into affordable housing instead it might make some tangible difference.

The history of these type of organisations shows that while some do some Trojan work, the vast majority are just another way to board the gravy train.

Ireland has an obsession with quangos for every facet of our existence.

Some reasons for that

1. Institutional lack of accountability

2. We are a great people for using sympathetic language but doing nothing tangible as a follow up and this really suits quangocrats, as well as virtue signalling journalists

mariaalice

What way should those with mental health issues, addictions, chaotic backgrounds or borderline disabilities who would find it difficult to house themselves or to maintain themselves in a home be supported? or those individuals who may need lifelong ongoing support how should they be supported?

Who should be supporting them?

Mr. Incognito

Dale Doback wrote: »

Holy.fcuking.sh1tballs!

That fcukhead us a pure conman. Theres no justification for that figure, is that where all the donations are going?

What a fcuking prick. Prancing around begging for money from everyone. What a cnut.

There are more full time employees in this ONE charity than there are actual people sleeping rough in Dublin.

Why doesnt every person sleeping rough a job.

downtheroad

The McVerry accounts are an eye opener. I cannot believe the gall of this man to constantly be in the media bemoaning the lack of accommodation for homeless people in Dublin, when his Trust receives €14.5m in state funding, of which €8m is paid by the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive specifically for Homeless Services (per page 19 of the report), and the Trust then spent only €2.3m on Property Running Costs and €2.8m to purchase and refurbish homes (page 23).

Wheeliebin30

downtheroad wrote: »

The McVerry accounts are an eye opener. I cannot believe the gall of this man to constantly be in the media bemoaning the lack of accommodation for homeless people in Dublin, when his Trust receives €14.5m in state funding, of which €8m is paid by the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive specifically for Homeless Services (per page 19 of the report), and the Trust then spent only €2.3m on Property Running Costs and €2.8m to purchase and refurbish homes (page 23).

We’re not allowed question this and if anyone does Sinn Féin ask them to resign.

It suits Sinn Fein and the left to have this “homeless” crisis.

Solving it would be detrimental to their campaign.

mariaalice

So nobody got any ideas of how to support the vulnerable individuals, that could possibly need ongoing life long support, one that is not going to cost any money?

it's not about the homeless services as such, but they seem to have got caught up in a narrative that is not reflective of what they do anymore.

People seem to want it both way either vulnerable people are entitled to get support because it is deemed a societal good or it's not and let everyone fend for themselves.

It will always cost money to support people.

BarryD2

Keegan has a point but was probably unwise to publicly express it.

Yurt2

Boggles wrote: »

Pensions are 8 billion this year, the largest expenditure in the budget, they were 5.9 billion in 2010.

Bloody freeloading old people.

downtheroad

BarryD2 wrote: »

Keegan has a point but was probably unwise to publicly express it.

Conor Skehan got vilified for pointing out that people were gaming the housing system. Nobody stands up for these guys calling a spade a spade.

Wheeliebin30

mariaalice wrote: »

So nobody got any ideas of how to support the vulnerable individuals, that could possibly need ongoing life long support, one that is not going to cost any money?

it's not about the homeless services as such, but they seem to have got caught up in a narrative that is not reflective of what they do anymore.

People seem to want it both way either vulnerable people are entitled to get support because it is deemed a societal good or it's not and let everyone fend for themselves.

It will always cost money to support people.

Nobody here is suggesting people who genuinely need help don’t get it.

Kivaro

downtheroad wrote: »

Conor Skehan got vilified for pointing out that people were gaming the housing system. Nobody stands up for these guys calling a spade a spade.

Which is why we need a completely new political party in this country.
And they would do very well indeed because working people and contributors to society are sick to the teeth of the status quo, and they want a party that represents their views/needs.

downtheroad

Kivaro wrote: »

Which is why we need a completely new political party in this country.
And they would do very well indeed because working people and contributors to society are sick to the teeth of the status quo, and they want a party that represents their views/needs.

Maybe Peter Casey, Conor Skehan and now Owen Keegan could set this up

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

So nobody got any ideas of how to support the vulnerable individuals, that could possibly need ongoing life long support, one that is not going to cost any money?

it's not about the homeless services as such, but they seem to have got caught up in a narrative that is not reflective of what they do anymore.

People seem to want it both way either vulnerable people are entitled to get support because it is deemed a societal good or it's not and let everyone fend for themselves.

It will always cost money to support people.

Vulnerable people need be classified differently to unemployed families with 5, 6, or 7 children claiming homelessness, though some of those families might fall into the same category. Genuine vulnerable people should have access to all available services. Some of the multi millions given to homeless “charities” could be better spent funding this support.

FutureGuy

BarryD2 wrote: »

Keegan has a point but was probably unwise to publicly express it.

And that is the problem.