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MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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Comments

  • #302
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Eh, no. We don't know that at all. If I'm a Labour MP looking to Corbyn to lead me into a glorious future and ensuring I keep my seat, then I'd be keeping a beady eye on the polls. I'd be wondering how my party would be doing under a leader who wasn't so unpopular.

    Can't wait to hear how this new independent group is going to ride in and save everyone from brexit and a tory majority.

    I'm all feckin ears on that one.


  • #303
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,811 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    What about the repeated times I've pointed out that no labour leader could have opposed the referendum result.

    Are you seriously trying to make the case that there is no possible way an opposition leader could have capitalised on the Tory omnishambles better than Corbyn has?

    Because that's a pretty extraordinary position to take.


  • #304
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,811 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Havockk wrote: »
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...can we discuss the more salient point, which is just how bad a party has to be to have only recently scraped level with a May-led Tory government?
    I've lost silly points before and owned them. No lost honour in that.

    I guess that's a "no".


  • #305
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Or that nobody in the labour party would currently beat Corbyn in a leadership election, or that Corbyn is currently the Labour MP with the highest approval rating?

    He's got a 29% approval rating, but a 50% disproval.

    Khan is only 2% behind on approval but a more respectful disproval percentage of 32%.


  • #306
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Are you seriously trying to make the case that there is no possible way an opposition leader could have capitalised on the Tory omnishambles better than Corbyn has?

    Because that's a pretty extraordinary position to take.

    How. Backing the idiotic people's vote? Huge swathes of labour voters backed brexit. A CU proposal is the sanest on the table.


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  • #307
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I guess that's a "no".

    Now you're just being flat out hypocritical. I expect better.


  • #308
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,811 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Havockk wrote: »
    How. Backing the idiotic people's vote? Huge swathes of labour voters backed brexit. A CU proposal is the sanest on the table.

    Jesus, you are trying to claim that. The mind boggles.


  • #309
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Jesus, you are trying to claim that. The mind boggles.

    Then what? Spell it out how Corbyn could have pleased everyone and prevented this particular split.


  • #310
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Jesus, you are trying to claim that. The mind boggles.

    Wow, you seem to actually think a "peoples referendum" was ever an option?

    Are you just being obstinate for the sake of it or are your actually that dense?

    How does Corbyn's "Norway+" model of continued CU membership and protection of workers, guman and migrant rights make a worse plan than re-running a bitterly divisive election and wasting time while further splintering both main parties to the point of even bigger impasse?


  • #311
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    It'll surely be Corbyn's legacy that a Brexit riven Tory party in charge of a country shedding it's manufacturing sector at speed won the 2019-2022 election.


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  • #312
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Havockk wrote: »
    Can't wait to hear how this new independent group is going to ride in and save everyone from brexit and a tory majority.

    I'm all feckin ears on that one.

    I'm hoping that The Tories will crash and burn due to the ERG's constant undermining leading to an extension of Article 50. Then I'd hope that a cross-party consensus would be achieved around a very soft Brexit or a second referendum. If it also meant the death of the Tory party then that would be a bonus.


  • #313
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Article 50 will be extended and an agreement along the lines of Corbyn's current proposal will be achieved, but there will not be a second vote.


  • #314
    Tom Mann Centuria
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,036 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I'm hoping that The Tories will crash and burn due to the ERG's constant undermining leading to an extension of Article 50. Then I'd hope that a cross-party consensus would be achieved around a very soft Brexit or a second referendum. If it also meant the death of the Tory party then that would be a bonus.

    Well the death of the Tory party would be lovely, can't disagree with that.

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



  • #315
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Are you seriously trying to make the case that there is no possible way an opposition leader could have capitalised on the Tory omnishambles better than Corbyn has?

    Because that's a pretty extraordinary position to take.

    What I said was that no labour leader could have opposed the referendum result.

    Corbyn does fine on PMQ, but you have to watch that live. The media is not going to tell you he managed to win any number of points against the Vicar's daughter.

    What he, or anybody else who might have led the party, can't do is abandon Brexit entirely. 70% of English and Welsh constituencies voted to exit ( and the vote was 54% to 46% in England/Wales), and thats where Labour wins seats.

    And of course many, if not most, of those were Labour constituencies.

    He has done ok. Now the Tories can go full steam ahead with Brexit in the anticipation that the left vote is split.


  • #316
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,047 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Havockk wrote: »
    How. Backing the idiotic people's vote? Huge swathes of labour voters backed brexit. A CU proposal is the sanest on the table.

    No they didn't . The majority of labour membership backed a second referendum.

    That's multiple times you've played fast and loose with the facts. This twisting of the truth is no different than the erg liars and twisters on both sides and those that would make excuses for it. Like yourself


  • #317
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Havockk wrote: »
    How. Backing the idiotic people's vote? Huge swathes of labour voters backed brexit. A CU proposal is the sanest on the table.

    72% of Labour voters back a second referendum.


  • #318
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,047 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Article 50 will be extended and an agreement along the lines of Corbyn's current proposal will be achieved, but there will not be a second vote.

    It won't. The UK will fall out no deal. And it will be Mays and corybns fault

    And their supporters will be hammered.


  • #319
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Article 50 will be extended and an agreement along the lines of Corbyn's current proposal will be achieved, but there will not be a second vote.

    I don't see that the Tories have to do that now.The splitters, if they succeed, are guaranteeing Tory hegemony.

    It might happen if the remainers in the Tory party get a backbone.


  • #320
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    listermint wrote: »
    It won't. The UK will fall out no deal. And it will be Mays and corybns fault

    And their supporters will be hammered.

    So you are saying a new remain party ( or rejoin the EU party) is going to arise from the ashes and defeat these old parties?

    Can't see it.


  • #321
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Havockk wrote: »
    Then what? Spell it out how Corbyn could have pleased everyone and prevented this particular split.

    How he failed to be of any opposition to May has little to do with the internal machinations of the party.


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  • #322
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I'm hoping that The Tories will crash and burn due to the ERG's constant undermining leading to an extension of Article 50. Then I'd hope that a cross-party consensus would be achieved around a very soft Brexit or a second referendum. If it also meant the death of the Tory party then that would be a bonus.

    What if they don't? And are emboldened even further? It's not without the realms of possibility that May was already burning the clock.

    Will we be back here talking about principles?


  • #323
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Corbyn does fine on PMQ, but you have to watch that live. The media is not going to tell you he managed to win any number of points against the Vicar's daughter..

    This is head in the sand stuff. Political commentators everywhere have been crying out that May has no opposition.


  • #324
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Havockk wrote: »
    What if they don't? And are emboldened even further? It's not without the realms of possibility that May was already burning the clock.

    She is burning down the clock to give parliament a binary choice. That's why I hope there will be a cross-party consensus when push comes to shove.
    Will we be back here talking about principles?

    We could be. The concept of 'principles' is fluid and subjective.


  • #325
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Hurrache wrote: »
    This is head in the sand stuff. Political commentators everywhere have been crying out that May has no opposiot32.

    It is literally the opposite of head in the sand. I watch him live on PMQ, and then I'm told he isn't doing what he clearly is doing - a pretty good job of being in opposition.


  • #326
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    72% of Labour voters back a second referendum.

    There was only one way the '2nd vote' was going to work. And that was via a GE. If one referendum caused this feckton of trouble, how stupid is it have another one? GE was by far the best route.


  • #327
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    The fact the Parliamentary Labour Party gave the gang of 7 a round of applause this evening should give the leadership some pause for thought - that said Tom Watson seems to get it.

    Meanwhile back in the 80s (with a 19 or 18 prefix)

    https://www.marxist.com/britain-bye-bye-blairites-now-show-the-rest-the-door.htm


  • #328
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,047 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    So you are saying a new remain party ( or rejoin the EU party) is going to arise from the ashes and defeat these old parties?

    Can't see it.

    Yes, I do. The UK will be back looking for membership within ten years.

    It's ridiculous to think they can exit in the manner they did straight into recession


  • #329
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,047 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Havockk wrote: »
    There was only one way the '2nd vote' was going to work. And that was via a GE. If one referendum caused this feckton of trouble, how stupid is it have another one? GE was by far the best route.

    But you said most of their membership didn't want one. Which is it. The previous falsehood or this one .. can't keep up


  • #330
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    So you are saying a new remain party ( or rejoin the EU party) is going to arise from the ashes and defeat these old parties?

    Can't see it.

    42% of voters said they would vote for a new centrist party.


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  • #331
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Havockk wrote: »
    There was only one way the '2nd vote' was going to work. And that was via a GE. If one referendum caused this feckton of trouble, how stupid is it have another one? GE was by far the best route.

    Perhaps, but a large majority of Labour voters want one anyway.


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