MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

listermint

Havockk wrote: »

Well now you have the support of the far-right and endorsements from the likes of katie hopkins. Don't expect that to tun into many votes though.

The real problem of course, is that while the centre ground was doing really well for itself, you left the actual labour force behind to the mercy of crap paying jobs and zero hour contracts. Now you are outright shocked that labour is retreating to the left? And the biggest sin of all was when you didn't get your way you threw the same people you now mock under the bus.

The Centre did not do this, enough of the lies and misinformation. It was the right austerity that did this. Especially in Britain where tories have been in power for how many years!? You claim the tories are centre. Is that what you are sticking with.......

Hurrache

Any criticism of Corbyn on this thread is not met with argument, but deflection and whataboutery.

Take the blindfold off guys, drop the dogmatism and face reality.

Havockk

Berserker wrote: »

Firstly, Labour voters voted for Brexit. The most pro-Brexit parts of the UK are Labour strongholds. S

I've been saying this the whole thread.

Havockk

listermint wrote: »

The Centre did not do this, enough of the lies and misinformation. It was the right austerity that did this. Especially in Britain where tories have been in power for how many years!? You claim the tories are centre. Is that what you are sticking with.......

No, I'm placing the blame firmly on Blair's shoulders.

listermint

Havockk wrote: »

I've been saying this the whole thread.

And deflecting that the endorsement for second referendum at there most recent conference went over 70%.

What sort of deflection are you going to spout today to subvert the facts. PEOPLE HAVE CHANGED THEIR MINDS and Corbyn is ignoring the democratic will of his membership. With full backing of similar minds such as yourself. Ultra left.

listermint

Havockk wrote: »

No, I'm placing the blame firmly on Blair's shoulders.

Blair hasnt been PM for 12 years. You seriously need to grow up a bit. This hanging on the past is laughable at this point.

Havockk

listermint wrote: »

And deflecting that the endorsement for second referendum at there most recent conference went over 70%.

What sort of deflection are you going to spout today to subvert the facts. PEOPLE HAVE CHANGED THEIR MINDS and Corbyn is ignoring the democratic will of his membership. With full backing of similar minds such as yourself. Ultra left.

So you think sacrificing 30% of base vote for a party already in minority is good strategy? Absolute nonsense. He was pragmatic about that from day one. It was the centre who lost sense of themselves.

Havockk

listermint wrote: »

Blair hasnt been PM for 12 years. You seriously need to grow up a bit. This hanging on the past is laughable at this point.

Laughable?? Well look on the bright side, you might now just get the hardest brexit of all and have just dismantled any safety net the people of the UK had, great work. Can't wait to see what this new private company does now.

listermint

Havockk wrote: »

So you think sacrificing 30% of base vote for a party already in minority is good strategy? Absolute nonsense. He was pragmatic about that from day one. It was the centre who lost sense of themselves.

Sorry what?!?!

Sacrificing 30% of the vote to 70% is the democratic mandate he stood on when he got elected.

You sir are actually at this point just joking around in no world can you be serious. And as for your facebook style comments on blair and what state he had the country in it was the best sustained growth period in the UK for all

he UK’s growth of GDP per capita – 1.42% a year between 1997 and 2010 – was better than in any of the other “G6” countries: Germany (1.26%), the US (1.22%), France (1.04%), Japan (0.52%) and Italy (0.22%). Figure 1 shows GDP per capita (now defined as “adults” to control for demographic shifts) in four countries relative to 1997

Fueled by Skills and Technology.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/uk-growth-and-productivity-1997-to-2008/

You are constantly posting facebook style facts.

You ignore actual evidence and information given to you. And for some reason you think 30% trumps 70% ** those figures where higher than 70% btw as i stated

prawnsambo

Havockk wrote: »

Well now you have the support of the far-right and endorsements from the likes of katie hopkins. Don't expect that to tun into many votes though.

The real problem of course, is that while the centre ground was doing really well for itself, you left the actual labour force behind to the mercy of crap paying jobs and zero hour contracts. Now you are outright shocked that labour is retreating to the left? And the biggest sin of all was when you didn't get your way you threw the same people you now mock under the bus.

WTAF? I don't know who you're directing those remarks at, because I said nothing of the sort. So please argue the points I made and stop throwing in straw men to argue against.

Katie Hopkins is a sh*t stirrer. Of course she'd shout support for anythiing that was seen as a rejection of Corbyn's politics. Don't twist this as something that the splitters are trying to court.

Seriously, stop with the projection and personalising remarks pretending I said something I didn't.

prawnsambo

Havockk wrote: »

So you think sacrificing 30% of base vote for a party already in minority is good strategy? Absolute nonsense. He was pragmatic about that from day one. It was the centre who lost sense of themselves.

The 70% were Labour members. Are they the wrong 70% or something that they can be safely ignored?

Havockk

listermint wrote: »

Sorry what?!?!

Sacrificing 30% of the vote to 70% is the democratic mandate he stood on when he got elected.

You sir are actually at this point just joking around in no world can you be serious. And as for your facebook style comments on blair and what state he had the country in it was the best sustained growth period in the UK for all



Fueled by Skills and Technology.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/uk-growth-and-productivity-1997-to-2008/

You are constantly posting facebook style facts.

You ignore actual evidence and information given to you. And for some reason you think 30% trumps 70% ** those figures where higher than 70% btw as i stated

And what happened to the labour market in all this? Call me a fool all you want, but as an old school marxist believe me I have think skin and am difficult to offend.

The truth is that the 'Labour' party under Blair sacrificed the 'labour force' to the mercy of neo-liberal capitalism.

Brexit was a lot of things, but part of it was the reaction by the 'labour force' of this betrayal of traditional values. Like I said, if the centre need to blame someone, go look in a mirror.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Blair hasnt been PM for 12 years. You seriously need to grow up a bit. This hanging on the past is laughable at this point.

if you go back to the economic prosperity the UK had under Blair, wage inflation would have been enormous, hence Blair allowing all people from the accession states free movement from the outset.

This had the effect of keeping wage inflation down, creating more profits for companies and therefore pushing wages up for senior management and above creating social divides that Labour are supposed to fix.

Blair and Brown also gave the financial institutions a free rein to do what they like, so they loaned out enormous sums of money, over cooked the economy and when it all went tits up, Brown nearly bankrupt the country by not only bailing out the banks, but also taking the spend spend spend way out of recession.

Austerity was caused by the labour policy of spending, not the Tories, but as in Ireland where FG are getting the blame for austerity, history won't remember the ones that ****ed it up, they will only remember the bad guys who had to put it all back together again.

So yes, where the UK is today has a lot to do with Blair.

kstand

The current Labour Party are a filthy cult - you have to be either mince thick or a scumbag to support who they are and what they stand for.

Havockk

kstand wrote: »

The current Labour Party are a filthy cult - you have to be either mince thick or a scumbag to support who they are and what they stand for.

Tell us what you really think though... lol

listermint

Havockk wrote: »

And what happened to the labour market in all this? Call me a fool all you want, but as an old school marxist believe me I have think skin and am difficult to offend.

The truth is that the 'Labour' party under Blair sacrificed the 'labour force' to the mercy of neo-liberal capitalism.

Brexit was a lot of things, but part of it was the reaction by the 'labour force' of this betrayal of traditional values. Like I said, if the centre need to blame someone, go look in a mirror.

People were not working multiple jobs during the Blair era. They had well paid assorted skills jobs.

This stuff is codswallop. I suspect you know that, but hey Facebook said that Blair was bad, something something Iraq . Boooo

ancapailldorcha

Havockk wrote: »

Tell us what you really think though... lol

No more of this please.

ancapailldorcha

kstand wrote: »

The current Labour Party are a filthy cult - you have to be either mince thick or a scumbag to support who they are and what they stand for.

Don't post like this here again please.

Franz Von Peppercorn

markodaly wrote: »

Moving?

The young have always been to the left and the old have always been to the right.
People go on about the electoral future is some sort of populist left movement. Where has this worked anywhere in the world in the past 10 years?

Populism is a false dawn as young people will grow up and realise that there are no easy solutions to rule and govern.

There’s no grand thinking these days, is there. Young people are on the left in a much larger fashion than before (despite the idea that young people were radical in the 80’s many were thatcherites and the Conservative party membership was large).

65% of under 40 year olds vote labour. A huge percentage of Tory voters are old but if there’s one socialist policy the Cons love it’s pensions.

Anyway the rise of inequality and the lack of housing will lock this new generation to the left.

Professor Moriarty

Memnoch wrote: »

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more. His integrity is exactly the issue. It is because of this that he has had the entire British media and political establishment gunning for him from day one.

It's very easy to say that someone is out of their depth and not effective when they have not been given a chance because of a rigged and corrupt system. I think Corbyn has shown tremendous fortitude, political instincts and ability to achieve what he has despite overwhelming odds.

It is akin to poisoning the well and then calling the farmer incompetent when his crops die from watering them.

Sadly, Corbyn's greatest achievement might be exposing just how broken British democracy truly is and the true agendas behind suppose left-wing organizations like the Guardian and the independent as well as the corrupt internal machinations of British political parties.

It's fine to blame the media, and I agree that the Tory press is an indictment of British society. But at some point, a leader must take responsibility. Corbyn has integrity but that doesn't make him unique - many MPs across all parties have integrity.

Anyway, it isn't Corbyn's integrity that is exposing the inadequacies of the British political system, it's Brexit. In the context of a dire government, Corbyn's approval rating is abysmal. A large majority of his MPs would dump him tomorrow and they are leaving his party. At this crucial time in Britain's history (and by extension Ireland's) he is failing to provide adequate opposition and to lead according to the wishes of his party e.g. 72% want a second referendum. Whatever your opinion of his ideology, the real politik is this. It is Corbyn who is out of touch not the electorate.

Franz Von Peppercorn

prawnsambo wrote: »

The 70% were Labour members. Are they the wrong 70% or something that they can be safely ignored?

Corbyn is trying what people in a more serious age called synthesis.

Havockk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Anyway, it isn't Corbyn's integrity that is exposing the inadequacies of the British political system, it's Brexit. In the context of a dire government, Corbyn's approval rating is abysmal. A large majority of his MPs would dump him tomorrow and they are leaving his party. At this crucial time in Britain's history (and by extension Ireland's) he is failing to provide adequate opposition and to lead according to the wishes of his party e.g. 72% want a second referendum. Whatever your opinion of his ideology, the real politik is this. It is Corbyn who is out of touch not the electorate.

Brexit is just another symptom. It's not the root cause. And here, there may be other politicians with integrity, but not one of them were part of the 7 yesterday.

Gbear

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Despite that rant it would have been political suicide to oppose the referendum result. Which which legally advisory was sold as binding.

There is now a remain party. That isn’t the maligned liberals. Let’s see how many votes it gets.

That's the received wisdom, but I don't buy it.

It'd be one thing to say "**** the referendum" the day after the vote, but it's become increasingly clear what a mess this is, and polling has consistently shown a preference for remain since the election.

It's not just that there has been basically no voice that is pro-remain (other than the Lib Dems, who nobody cares about), but that there has been no holding to account for the lies, no serious attempt to make an issue of the British democratic process being assaulted and to investigate the likes of Aaron Banks, and other Leave doners.

The British system has become hostage to the whims of a morass of propaganda organisations in the tabloid media, and instead of fighting them, the likes of Labour cravenly bow to their narrative.

A strong remain Labour leader (and therefore less likely to be idiotic or corrupt) could absolutely have been making the case to their constituents about the shambles of the government, the criminality of the Leave campaign, what a nonsense the Referendum was all along, with no coherent goal, and would now be in a comfortable position to push for a people's vote, at a minimum, if not just cancel the whole festering mess outright.

The problem is that Corbyn has not done this. He has focused purely on the incompetence, but without attacking the underlying insanity, and even then, he's been bleating about politics as usual, as if the cliff of Brexit wasn't on the horizon and it was simply a matter of the usual policy disagreements between the Tories and Labour. He has failed to hold to account the attacks on the legitimacy of British Democracy.

Of course, for him it's not a failure. His ilk dismiss the greatest peace project in history and more broadly, the globalist system that has brought the greatest prosperity to the most number of people in history, because he's chasing a socialist utopian fantasy.

I think pretty much anyone would have done a better job. Probably even Ed Miliband.
After the Tories going on about what chaos he would bring, he'd be sitting pretty right now if he was still Labour leader.

markodaly

Some people here are harping back to the days of the 1970's Britan where the ICTU ran the show.
Those days are long long gone.

I still can't believe that there are some who still advocate policies and rhetoric from the old eastern bloc. It makes Trump look progressive.

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s no grand thinking these days, is there. Young people are on the left in a much larger fashion than before (despite the idea that young people were radical in the 80’s many were thatcherites and the Conservative party membership was large).

65% of under 40 year olds vote labour. A huge percentage of Tory voters are old but if there’s one socialist policy the Cons love it’s pensions.

Anyway the rise of inequality and the lack of housing will lock this new generation to the left.

Young people are also overwhelmingly pro-Remain, yet Corbyn is ready to throw them under the bus so he can pursue his grand renationalising plans, even denying them a vote on a Brexit deal.

Havockk

Gbear wrote: »

That's the received wisdom, but I don't buy it.

It'd be one thing to say "**** the referendum" the day after the vote, but it's become increasingly clear what a mess this is, and polling has consistently shown a preference for remain since the election.

It's not just that there has been basically no voice that is pro-remain (other than the Lib Dems, who nobody cares about), but that there has been no holding to account for the lies, no serious attempt to make an issue of the British democratic process being assaulted and to investigate the likes of Aaron Banks, and other Leave doners.

The British system has become hostage to the whims of a morass of propaganda organisations in the tabloid media, and instead of fighting them, the likes of Labour cravenly bow to their narrative.

A strong remain Labour leader (and therefore less likely to be idiotic or corrupt) could absolutely have been making the case to their constituents about the shambles of the government, the criminality of the Leave campaign, what a nonsense the Referendum was all along, with no coherent goal, and would now be in a comfortable position to push for a people's vote, at a minimum, if not just cancel the whole festering mess outright.

The problem is that Corbyn has not done this. He has focused purely on the incompetence, but without attacking the underlying insanity, and even then, he's been bleating about politics as usual, as if the cliff of Brexit wasn't on the horizon and it was simply a matter of the usual policy disagreements between the Tories and Labour. He has failed to hold to account the attacks on the legitimacy of British Democracy.

Of course, for him it's not a failure. His ilk dismiss the greatest peace project in history and more broadly, the globalist system that has brought the greatest prosperity to the most number of people in history, because he's chasing a socialist utopian fantasy.

I think pretty much anyone would have done a better job. Probably even Ed Miliband.
After the Tories going on about what chaos he would bring, he'd be sitting pretty right now if he was still Labour leader.

Look. I do get the anger. That's one of the tragic things about this split, up until last week most of us I imagine all believe Brexit was sheer lunacy. The only difference we had is the best way to stop it, or mitigate the damage.

I say that the left and the centre were all too slow to react to the obvious attack from the hardliners which was to position themselves as the defenders of democracy.

Once that happened, we had to accept it on the chin and strategise. Personally, I moved to the belief that the best was forward was a GE. The 2nd ref was dead at that point and needed to be abandoned.

c.p.w.g.w

Derrick Hatton, what's the big deal with him being reamitted? Was that a reason for some of the 7 leaving labour?

Havockk

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Derrick Hatton, what's the big deal with him being reamitted? Was that a reason for some of the 7 leaving labour?

No big deal. He's old school trot to be fair, he'd tell you that himself. the issue appears to be that a 'broad church' party like Labour were a bit too broad for some in the centre. I think that's the gist.

ancapailldorcha

No more quips please.

c.p.w.g.w

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Derrick Hatton, what's the big deal with him being reamitted? Was that a reason for some of the 7 leaving labour?

It is because of people like Hatton that Labour is losing popularity under Corbyn and why they are only popular with the under forties who can't remember the absolute Trotskyite shambles that large elements of Labour used to be.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/derek-hatton-meeting-liverpools-socialist-poster-boy-after-hating-him-for-30-years-a6668916.html