MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

ninebeanrows

Best for Britain right now would be for May to force an election.

She wins with large mandate and gets current deal through parliament.

Brexit goes through sometime early May with current deal/.

Sorted.

listermint

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Best for Britain right now would be for May to force an election.

She wins with large mandate and gets current deal through parliament.

Brexit goes through sometime early May with current deal/.

Sorted.

Ha! She would get slaughtered.

EdgeCase

I actually think it's healthy that MPs can break away and party systems can evolve. Ultra rigid tribal politics is precisely what got the UK into this mess. It's also what's sustaining Trump in the US.

It's been pointed out a few times that the division between labour and capital was relevant in a country like the UK 50+ years ago and was the main dichotomy. The country's changed a hell of a lot since then and maybe it's time for the party structures to reflect that.

It looks to me like the current split in the UK is about nationalism Vs multilateralism. The Tories trying to twist that into carte blanche for right wing economic policies is a recipe for political disaster. I see very little evidence for strong support in the UK for dismantling social infrastructure etc etc. The population seems very centrist.

ninebeanrows

listermint wrote: »

Ha! She would get slaughtered.

Did you see the poll a few pages back?

She would romp home.

Poll has Conservatives on 41%, Labour on 33%

Opposition is split - first past the post - She would have huge majority

marno21

quokula wrote: »

This - the Lib Dems already exist, have actual policies, and have candidates who believe in those policies and always have.

This group is a bunch of people united by their hatred of their previous party leaders (for varying reasons, but for most it was because they were facing deselection), with nothing coherent binding them other than that.

If this group unites behind a 2nd referendum, it would appear to me to be a clear policy binding them as opposed to the heterogeneous mish mash of viewpoints within the two main parties. Dominic Grieve and Jacob Rees Mogg both have Con beside their names but they are hardly united by viewpoint

Harry Palmr

Chris Williamson is why Labour is struggling. Refuses to acknowledge anything is wrong by filleting the truth.

Tom Mann Centuria

marno21 wrote: »

If this group unites behind a 2nd referendum, it would appear to me to be a clear policy binding them as opposed to the heterogeneous mish mash of viewpoints within the two main parties. Dominic Grieve and Jacob Rees Mogg both have Con beside their names but they are hardly united by viewpoint

Why ignore the Lib Dems, that is exactly what they've been campaigning for and have got zero traction. Outside the couple of reasonably big names in UK politics, because they're better at self promotion than anything else, what do the new party that isn't a party offer the Lib Dems don't?

prawnsambo

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Did you see the poll a few pages back?

She would romp home.

Poll has Conservatives on 41%, Labour on 33%

Opposition is split - first past the post - She would have huge majority

Very early days. There may well be more Tory defections. In fact I'd bet that there will be. But the Labour polling is indeed shocking. Not only have they lost MPs, but they seem to have lost a huge swathe of popular support as well. It's a swiftly evolving situation, so I suppose popcorn is called for.

ancapailldorcha

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Why ignore the Lib Dems, that is exactly what they've been campaigning for and have got zero traction. Outside the couple of reasonably big names in UK politics, because they're better at self promotion than anything else, what do the new party that isn't a party offer the Lib Dems don't?

The Lib Dems are still tainted by their time in coalition with the Conservatives, especially the tuition fees fiasco.

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

But the argument began the other way. Corbyn was criticised as anti Semitic because he criticised Israel. As in being pro hamas. Joking about Zionism etc.

I posted before about what 'Zionism' means or doesn't mean. It's become a cover for anti-Israeli and anti-semitic sentiment. It's interchangeable between its original definition and a later supposed definition of Israeli government hawkishness. THe problem is that labelling people as 'Zionists' is fine if you define that clearly. But when you apply it to Jewish people in the UK, it becomes something else. And all that talk, just emboldens those who feel that they can now spout that kind of hatred with impunity. I'm not saying that Corbyn is anti-semitic, but he's way too much on the fence on the issue and it's caused a lot of dismay with groups like the JLM. Who are now being outright attacked for being some sort of front for the Israeli government.

Water John

You also could have a multi party coalition with LB as the lead party but not Corbyn as PM.

briany

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Best for Britain right now would be for May to force an election.

She wins with large mandate and gets current deal through parliament.

Brexit goes through sometime early May with current deal/.

Sorted.

It would be well for her to get rid of that toxic dependence on the DUP, but that would be in no way a guarantee of getting a majority on a vote to break the Brexit deadlock as the Cons demonstrably have a group of hardliners within the party proper.

MrMusician18

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The Lib Dems are still tainted by their time in coalition with the Conservatives, especially the tuition fees fiasco.

A lot of people will never forgive them for facilitating the Tories in saddling them with £40k of student debt.

It was the ultimate sell out of their base. All for an AV referendum that had no chance of passing.

Harry Palmr

Press conference for the Tory Trio right now.

briany

So, 4 or 5 more Conservative MPs defecting to this Independent Groups and the Conservatives are in real trouble.

L1011

Water John wrote: »

You also could have a multi party coalition with LB as the lead party but not Corbyn as PM.

As done in Ireland twice when Richard Mulcahy of FG was unacceptable to the other members of the coalition

LuckyLloyd

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Best for Britain right now would be for May to force an election.

She wins with large mandate and gets current deal through parliament.

Brexit goes through sometime early May with current deal/.

Sorted.

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Did you see the poll a few pages back?

She would romp home.

Poll has Conservatives on 41%, Labour on 33%

Opposition is split - first past the post - She would have huge majority

That was the idea in spring of 2017. How did it work out in the end?

The media find it easy to hammer Corbyn during normal course of events. He is an excellent campaigner and May is a terrible one so - were an election called - I'd fully expect any gap to be closed in short order.

Moreover, frustrations with Brexit will be far more acute now than they were then.

Leroy42

TM will not be leading the Tories in the next election.

Well not according to her anyway, so its probably rubbish!

But I cannot see the Tories wanting to be going into another election with her at the helm.

quokula

MrMusician18 wrote: »

A lot of people will never forgive them for facilitating the Tories in saddling them with £40k of student debt.

It was the ultimate sell out of their base. All for an AV referendum that had no chance of passing.

And half of the new independent group voted for that increase in tuition fees, either directly as members of the Tories, or in the case of Joan Ryan, directly opposed her own Labour party's position to vote in favour of it too.

Inquitus

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The Lib Dems are still tainted by their time in coalition with the Conservatives, especially the tuition fees fiasco.

The have been out in the cold for longer than FF were after driving the country off a cliff! Maybe its time to forgive them!

Rjd2

Leroy42 wrote: »

TM will not be leading the Tories in the next election.

Well not according to her anyway, so its probably rubbish!

But I cannot see the Tories wanting to be going into another election with her at the helm.

She said she would not lead them into another election, but was a bit all over the shop when it comes to a snap election.

The Tories don't want another election simply because its not worth the risk. Best case scenario is they win another 4 or 5 seats, however its also quite possible that Corbyn gains power.

Rjd2

Inquitus wrote: »

The have been out in the cold for longer than FF were after driving the country off a cliff! Maybe its time to forgive them!

You need someone dynamic and exciting leading the party, Vince Cable is most certainly not. Party needs new leadership desperately.

Harry Palmr

That PC went much better than the ex Labour one in terms of heartfelt but coherent commentary about the party they have left. There are clearly plenty of others who feel likewise about the ERG infiltration of the Tory Party.

Inquitus

1 more defection from the Tories and if SF sat it would be a minority Gov, as it stands 5 more Tories is the magic number.

Leroy42

Inquitus wrote: »

1 more defection from the Tories and if SF sat it would be a minority Gov, as it stands 5 more Tories is the magic number.

The UK parliament does not need SF to sort out this mess.

They need politicians to grow a pair and tell the people the truth. That they were lied to during the campaign, that whether or not Brexit is a good idea, the UK is simply not ready for it at the moment. That it has all been handled terribly and that it needs a complete rethink.

Larbre34

It does need a complete rethink, but right now there aren't the numbers either to take it forward or to roll it back. These 10 independents (and I shall use the collective noun Blairites) cannot change that without dozens more joining them.

LuckyLloyd

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What was the fabrication?

The anti - semitism stuff.

Leroy42

Larbre34 wrote: »

It does need a complete rethink, but right now there aren't the numbers either to take it forward or to roll it back. These 10 independents (and I shall use the collective noun Blairites) cannot change that without dozens more joining them.

Well I suppose I agree in that it doesn't need a rethink, in so much as it appears that a think never happened in the 1st place.

They simply cannot deliver the Brexit that the country felt they would get. Its currently impossible due to many factors but at this stage time is the main one.

The UK need to go off and think hard about what they what and what they are prepared to sacrifice to get it. Even now, Farage, JRM etc have no actual details of what Brexit means.

Freedom! As if the UK are somehow captive. It is a nonsense.

Inquitus

Larbre34 wrote: »

It does need a complete rethink, but right now there aren't the numbers either to take it forward or to roll it back. These 10 independents (and I shall use the collective noun Blairites) cannot change that without dozens more joining them.

There's around 4 committed labour leavers, who will vote with the ERG, in order to counterbalance that you would need 9-10 more Tories to defect to the IG in order to reduce the Gov to minority status.

prawnsambo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The anti - semitism stuff.

HAve you some evidence that this is fabricated? Because there's plenty of direct evidence that it isn't. Unless you think the tweets I posted this morning had no bearing on the issue despite being directed at Jewish people and invoking Palestine.

Edit: Sorry, 'evidence' is the wrong word, 'reasons' for thinking this would be better.