MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

loyatemu

even if TM went for an election and won a majority, how many of them would vote for her deal? The ERG are a party within a party at this stage and do what they like.

Larbre34

Minority Government on its own isn't enough to enable a course change, not as long as Labour remains so factionalised. You have the Kate Hoey types (hard Brexit) the John McDonnell types (soft Brexit and socialist revolution while we're at it) the Hilary Benn types (BRINO /remain but you'll never take my Labour Party away) and then those that are still agonising whether to join the Umanna Berger group.

Simply hobbling the Govts power to continue its current course, or even gaining a Parliamentary directed extension to A50 are no guarantees of a united decision on what way to proceed. I don't think even a general election would do that as theres no way Labour could agree a manifesto and its hard left ordinary members would be agitating for deselections and a cleansing of centrists. Not to mention that lack of time for the 10 new indos plus whoever joins them to build policy.

A fine mess.

ancapailldorcha

loyatemu wrote: »

even if TM went for an election and won a majority, how many of them would vote for her deal? The ERG are a party within a party at this stage and do what they like.

The point of the 2017 election was that she would increase her majority and free herself from the likes of the ERG.

Hurrache

prawnsambo wrote: »

HAve you some evidence that this is fabricated? Because there's plenty of direct evidence that it isn't.

I wouldn't bother. Strangely for an Irish site there's a rabid bunch of Labour supporters that don't want to hear anything bad about Labour or Corbyn, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary.

Fr Tod Umptious

prawnsambo wrote: »

HAve you some evidence that this is fabricated? Because there's plenty of direct evidence that it isn't. Unless you think the tweets I posted this morning had no bearing on the issue despite being directed at Jewish people and invoking Palestine.

The anti semitism stuff is something to hide behind for the (ex) Labour MPs, they seem to be afraid to call out the leadership on Brexit, which should be the real issue for their departure.

It's a bit like Bertie suddenly stepping down the day his former secretary was due before the tribunal to explain the bizzare money movements years earlier.

Everyone knew the game was up for Bertie but he kept telling us he was planning on stepping down anyway.

BonnieSituation

kunst nugget wrote: »

Presumably they're taking about the claims of antisemitism that plague the Labour party.

I presume that too. But it's nice when the OP explains themselves. Which they have done just below you.

BonnieSituation

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The anti - semitism stuff.

And can you tell me how it's fabricated?

I've no skin in the game either way and generally wouldn't be one to jump to conclusions but there seems to be a fair amount more going on than "he said, she said".

Where's your evidence of fabrication?

Water John

An interesting point about the Independent Group is that the majority of its MPs are women.

Cryptopagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The point of the 2017 election was that she would increase her majority and free herself from the likes of the ERG.

118 Tory MPs voted against May’s deal, so unless she somehow winds up with 110+ majority, it won’t solve anything. From a Tory point of view, a snap election is an idea so bad even May wouldn’t consider it.

Some of the stuff suggested here (May calling a snap election, a Labour coalition with someone other than the leader as PM, and that old favorite SF taking their seats) is every bit as outlandish as Brexiteer fantasies of a freewheeling free trading Britain.

Water John

A LB coalition after the next election is a fairly likely possibility. I would presume other parties would not want Corbyn as PM.
Here, the PDs under O'Malley went into coalition with their nemisis Haughey.
After an election, it's all about the numbers.

prawnsambo

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The anti semitism stuff is something to hide behind for the (ex) Labour MPs, they seem to be afraid to call out the leadership on Brexit, which should be the real issue for their departure.

They did call them out on brexit. It was in their resignation letters and reiterated at their presser. Here's what Luciana Berger said:

...as the Labour party today refuses to put my constituents and our country before party interest

Or Chris Leslie:

The evidence of Labour’s betrayal on Europe is now visible for all to see … Choosing to stand by while our constituents’ lives and future opportunities are hurt by Brexit is a fundamental violation of Labour’s traditional values.

Gavin Shuker:

Today, the Labour party is riddled with antisemitism, it presents a threat to our national security and it’s perfectly content to enable the hard Tory Brexit that will directly and negatively affect people in Luton.

I could go on, but I don't think it's necessary.

Franz Von Peppercorn

prawnsambo wrote: »

Very early days. There may well be more Tory defections. In fact I'd bet that there will be. But the Labour polling is indeed shocking. Not only have they lost MPs, but they seem to have lost a huge swathe of popular support as well. It's a swiftly evolving situation, so I suppose popcorn is called for.

New parties often get high percentages. The question is will people waste their vote. If they do labour is doomed.

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

New parties often get high percentages. The question is will people waste their vote. If they do labour is doomed.

Yeah. And the history in the UK is not good for new parties. As it is here. But I don't think we've seen such a hole opening in the middle ground as we've seen in the UK. They need to add more MPs and then consolidate and produce some policies.

ancapailldorcha

Cryptopagan wrote: »

118 Tory MPs voted against May’s deal, so unless she somehow winds up with 110+ majority, it won’t solve anything. From a Tory point of view, a snap election is an idea so bad even May wouldn’t consider it.

Some of the stuff suggested here (May calling a snap election, a Labour coalition with someone other than the leader as PM, and that old favorite SF taking their seats) is every bit as outlandish as Brexiteer fantasies of a freewheeling free trading Britain.

She wasn't aware of this at the time. In 2017, she was hoping to be free of the fanatics and hard Brexiteers in her party. Instead she added the DUP to their number.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Inquitus wrote: »

There's around 4 committed labour leavers, who will vote with the ERG, in order to counterbalance that you would need 9-10 more Tories to defect to the IG in order to reduce the Gov to minority status.

The IG doesnt seem ideologically pure. The conservative defectors are definitely remainers. The Labour defectors don’t like Corbyn.

If May re proposes her last deal how will they vote? Remember it’s a vote for Brexit, even if softer than the ERG would prefer.

Leroy42

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The IG doesnt seem ideologically pure. The conservative defectors are remainers. The Labour defectors don’t like Corbyn.

But maybe that is the start of a compromise type party, one that can deal with the changing nature of the world rather than sticking to pre-defined lines. So positions are made based on an understanding of the topic rather than an ideological bent.

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The IG doesnt seem ideologically pure. The conservative defectors are definitely remainers. The Labour defectors don’t like Corbyn.

If May re proposes her last deal how will they vote? Remember it’s a vote for Brexit, even if softer than the ERG would prefer.

I'm pretty certain all the Labour defectors are full fat remainers. Like Chuka Umunna for example. He's been banging the drum for a second referendum for a long time. All of them mentioned the Labour position on brexit as a reason for leaving.

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/DanielHewittITV/status/1098260076857565185

Is the trickle set to become a flood?

Harry Palmr

Save us from ideological purity.

ilkhanid

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And can you tell me how it's fabricated?
Where's your evidence of fabrication?

I'd have thought that the Ruth George faux pas said all that needed to be said on that topic. A good number of the membership of the party seem to have an unhealthy obsession with "Zionists" under the bed. It all seems rather Stalinist.

LuckyLloyd

prawnsambo wrote: »

HAve you some evidence that this is fabricated? Because there's plenty of direct evidence that it isn't. Unless you think the tweets I posted this morning had no bearing on the issue despite being directed at Jewish people and invoking Palestine.

Edit: Sorry, 'evidence' is the wrong word, 'reasons' for thinking this would be better.

From Wikipedia:

“Allegations of antisemitism in the UK Labour Party have been made since Jeremy Corbyn was elected as leader in September 2015, particularly after comments by Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone in 2016 resulted in their suspension from membership. Shah was subsequently reinstated while Livingstone resigned.

The allegations prompted Corbyn to establish the Chakrabarti Inquiry in 2016. The inquiry found that, although antisemitism and other types of racism were not endemic within Labour, there was an "occasionally toxic atmosphere". The all-party Home Affairs Select Committee held an inquiry into antisemitism in the United Kingdom in the same year and found "no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party", but that the leadership's lack of action “risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally antisemitic".

There is nothing happening in Labour that is out of kilter with British society in general, except that Corbyn refuses to be bullied to make moves he doesn’t believe are necessary as a show that he’s “doing something” for the media.

Just because people keep making allegations (allegations that are consistently investigated and subject to due process) and shout louder and louder about the fact that there are allegations doesn’t / shouldn’t mean anything. Contextually, this is the one of many attempts to throw mud at Corbyn that has stuck (he’s an IRA sympathiser or and Soviet spy don’t forget) driven on by an ethnic group who have an extremely low bar for what is hate speech against them.

This is one of those occasions where throwing constant smoke doesn’t mean there is a fire underneath it all. It’s nonsense, clung to by those who can’t accept the reality of a socialist leader back in charge of the Labour Party and commandeering 40% of the electorate.

blanch152

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

From Wikipedia:

“Allegations of antisemitism in the UK Labour Party have been made since Jeremy Corbyn was elected as leader in September 2015, particularly after comments by Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone in 2016 resulted in their suspension from membership. Shah was subsequently reinstated while Livingstone resigned.

The allegations prompted Corbyn to establish the Chakrabarti Inquiry in 2016. The inquiry found that, although antisemitism and other types of racism were not endemic within Labour, there was an "occasionally toxic atmosphere". The all-party Home Affairs Select Committee held an inquiry into antisemitism in the United Kingdom in the same year and found "no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party", but that the leadership's lack of action “risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally antisemitic".

There is nothing happening in Labour that is out of kilter with British society in general, except that Corbyn refuses to be bullied to make moves he doesn’t believe are necessary as a show that he’s “doing something” for the media.

Just because people keep making allegations (allegations that are consistently investigated and subject to due process) and shout louder and louder about the fact that there are allegations doesn’t / shouldn’t mean anything. Contextually, this is the one of many attempts to throw mud at Corbyn that has stuck (he’s an IRA sympathiser or and Soviet spy don’t forget) driven on by an ethnic group who have an extremely low bar for what is hate speech against them.

This is one of those occasions where throwing constant smoke doesn’t mean there is a fire underneath it all. It’s nonsense, clung to by those who can’t accept the reality of a socialist leader back in charge of the Labour Party and commandeering 40% of the electorate.

Your analysis doesn't match the facts in the Wikipedia article. It says that "the leadership's lack of action “risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally antisemitic"". It is therefore incumbent on the leadership (i.e. Corbyn) to take action (statements, expulsions policies?) to show that the Labour movement is not institutionally antisemitic. That he has failed to do so is an indictment of him.

LuckyLloyd

blanch152 wrote: »

Your analysis doesn't match the facts in the Wikipedia article. It says that "the leadership's lack of action “risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally antisemitic"". It is therefore incumbent on the leadership (i.e. Corbyn) to take action (statements, expulsions policies?) to show that the Labour movement is not institutionally antisemitic. That he has failed to do so is an indictment of him.

But says there is no fundamental issue. So this is - as I said - about a perception of how seriously he has taken or how stringently he has acted on an issue fundamentally without merit. Jeremy has spent his whole career not acting in a supposedly politically expedient fashion so here we are.

blanch152

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But says there is no fundamental issue. So this is - as I said - about a perception of how seriously he has taken or how stringently he has acted on an issue fundamentally without merit. Jeremy has spent his whole career not acting in a supposedly politically expedient fashion so here we are.

It is often said that it is not just important that justice be done, it is also important that justice is seen to be done.

Larbre34

I see in pictures from the Commons that Luciana Berger is now sat beside Mr Ian Paisley Jr MP. Out of the frying pan and into the fire you might say.

Harry Palmr

Terrific speech by Dame Louis Ellman in the debate on anti-Semitism.

LuckyLloyd

Hurrache wrote: »

I wouldn't bother. Strangely for an Irish site there's a rabid bunch of Labour supporters that don't want to hear anything bad about Labour or Corbyn, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary.

Nope. The one thing I feel very strongly about when it comes to British society is how the right wing media have successfully poisoned the well over the years. It’s amazing to me that we have people who see that with Brexit: the way the media built and perpetuated bogus narratives on the EU and immigration over a 25 year period; and yet some of those same people will happily hop on the anti Corbyn narratives because it suits their particular political agenda.

The thing is - when it comes to Corbyn - so many of his MPs and those still yearning for a centerist Blairite leader fail to recognise that the Overten window has shifted. They may yet get Corbyn, but if they think the electorate will vote through Miliband’s platform or some version of it they’re in for a shock.

Hurrache

Hilarious, Hatton already suspended from the Labour party. What a joke shop.

Harry Palmr

Hurrache wrote: »

Hilarious, Hatton already suspended from the Labour party. What a joke shop.

From guardian

the Liverpool Echo reported that on Wednesday Hatton was notified of his suspension pending an investigation into a tweet he posted in 2012.

It is understood that the party was not aware of the tweet when Hatton applied to rejoin but decided to take action after officials found out about it.

While the tweet was not specified, on Tuesday the Jewish News reported that in 2012 Hatton tweeted: “Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”

prawnsambo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nope. The one thing I feel very strongly about when it comes to British society is how the right wing media have successfully poisoned the well over the years. It’s amazing to me that we have people who see that with Brexit: the way the media built and perpetuated bogus narratives on the EU and immigration over a 25 year period; and yet some of those same people will happily hop on the anti Corbyn narratives because it suits their particular political agenda.

The thing is - when it comes to Corbyn - so many of his MPs and those still yearning for a centerist Blairite leader fail to recognise that the Overten window has shifted. They may yet get Corbyn, but if they think the electorate will vote through Miliband’s platform or some version of it they’re in for a shock.

This isn't merdia driven and it's not about centrist 'yearnings'. This is coming from Labour Party members and MPs. Here are some stats for you. Since April 2018 (10 months), there have been 673 complaints, 96 members have been suspended and 12 expelled. 44 more left the party.



But people like Margaret Hodge (who submitted 200 complaints herself) believe that the numbers are being woefully understated. And there's been very little engagement from party leadership.