MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

Tom Mann Centuria

Corbyn has fudged the Labour Brexit position because he has to, and I think he's done a reasonable job. When they are trying to appeal to Northern and Midland working class towns in England they have to acknowledge they were strongly Leave in nearly all constituencies. Whilst also continuing to hold their dominant position in greater London which was Remain.

European politicians have said his option is the best they've been offered by the UK.

Havockk

Hurrache wrote: »

What does any of this mean with regards to how awful Corbyn has been?

I don;t think he has been awful. I think he has an impossible job. This wing of the party was constantly sniping now it has split.

Do you believe this 7 will ride in and rescue Brexit? and if not, then what was teh point?

oscarBravo

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

European politicians have said his option is the best they've been offered by the UK.

If you think that's praise for his option in any meaningful sense, you haven't been paying attention.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Hurrache wrote: »

But this is not true at all. It's farcical that if there was a snap election the conservatives would gain seats.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/02/11/tories-unlikely-gain-enough-seats-solve-brexit-woe

That’s a fairly recent poll but they change every week. In fact the Tories got a bounce from rejecting their own deal with the EU, from UKIP.

Tory remainers are loyal.

And how does a new party stealing votes from labour help thwart Brexit. A hard Brexit is certain now.

Hurrache

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Corbyn has fudged the Labour Brexit position because he has to, and I think he's done a reasonable job. When they are trying to appeal to Northern and Midland working class towns in England they have to acknowledge they were strongly Leave in nearly all constituencies. Whilst also continuing to hold their dominant position in greater London which was Remain.

European politicians have said his option is the best they've been offered by the UK.

No better than May so, party before country.

Franz Von Peppercorn

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you think that's praise for his option in any meaningful sense, you haven't been paying attention.

It’s definitely praise.

Hurrache

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s a fairly recent poll but they change every week.

Did any poll have Labour in a position to win an election?

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't see how. The parallels are there.

If people have to dismiss every outlet in the land because they're criticising Jeremy Corbyn, it makes for a very poor argument to moderate voters why he should be Prime Minister.

Maybe Corbynistas could come up with a name for all this baseless fear mongering. How about project fear?

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Corbyn has fudged the Labour Brexit position because he has to, and I think he's done a reasonable job. When they are trying to appeal to Northern and Midland working class towns in England they have to acknowledge they were strongly Leave in nearly all constituencies. Whilst also continuing to hold their dominant position in greater London which was Remain.

European politicians have said his option is the best they've been offered by the UK.

of course they do, it is basically a Norway plus model.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Hurrache wrote: »

Did any poll have Labour in a position to win an election?

They were ahead in a few polls of course.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Aegir wrote: »

of course they do, it is basically a Norway plus model.

Grand so. No need for a new party.

Hurrache

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

They were ahead in a few polls of course.

But it's shocking that Labour under Corbyn haven't been able to make this consistent.

Looks like a handful of polls in the summer of 2018 and that's it, the rest is pathetic.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Uk2022polling15average.png/800px-Uk2022polling15average.png


There's no viable opposition in the house of commons.

Tom Mann Centuria

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you think that's praise for his option in any meaningful sense, you haven't been paying attention.

I'm not the one who called these 7 MPs "principled", so paying attention may not be your strong suit either.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Hurrache wrote: »

But it's shocking that Labour under Corbyn haven't been able to make this consistent. There's no viable opposition in the house of commons.

The assumption that the conservatives would collapse with another labour leader is unproven. In fact labour can’t abandon their working class base, so they would always fudge Brexit.

Hurrache

Nobody is saying that another Labour leader will collapse the Conservatives, they are saying a better leader would pull Labour up.

MrMusician18

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ironically enough, that's the sort of rhetoric UKIP supporters come out with.

Nonsense. Corbyn was never given a fair crack of the whip apart from during the election when it was legally required.

The majority of the press have displayed outright hostility to him with the neutral BBC holding him in thinly veiled contempt from day one.

All because he proposes to renationalise a few railways and neuter their war machine. The criticism of Corbyn has never been fair because the press/establishment detest him.

MrMusician18

Hurrache wrote: »

Nobody is saying that another Labour leader will collapse the Conservatives, they are saying a better leader would pull Labour up.

Who? Where's the alternative in the party that doesn't alienate one faction or the other?

Hurrache

OK, so it's all the media's fault for making him look bad.

oscarBravo

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

I'm not the one who called these 7 MPs "principled"...

Neither am I. And before you go quoting the post where you think I did, read it carefully.

MrMusician18

Hurrache wrote: »

OK, so it's all the media's fault for making him look bad.

Will they keep running the AS non-story in order to oust him.

The AS story was great for those in the anti Corbyn faction. They could self generate headlines and crisis at any time they pleased. And boy have they made hay and destroyed their party in the process.

I did have to laugh at the band of 7 being called the chicken coup earlier though.

Tom Mann Centuria

oscarBravo wrote: »

Neither am I. And before you go quoting the post where you think I did, read it carefully.

How about:

If you think these 7 MPs do anything "principled", paying attention may not be your strong suit either.

This game is fun.

Subcomandante Marcos

Labour make largest gains in a general election since before WWII despite predictions of a Tory absolute majority and then some poll has them losing 2-4 seats.

"OMG WHAT FAILURES!!!"


You couldn't make this stuff.

LuckyLloyd

Same posters fighting the same fight that was fought here tbh:

https://www.boards.ie/mobile/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103757127

Of course Corbyn survived leadership challenges he wasn’t supppsed to survive and then way outperformed expectations at the ballot box. And he’ll do so again when the time comes.

Havockk

oscarBravo wrote: »

Neither am I. And before you go quoting the post where you think I did, read it carefully.

What about that time you claimed Labour were 'miles behind' only to then turn round and say you were talking about Corbyns leadership when it was pointed out both were dead even?

Subcomandante Marcos

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Same posters fighting the same fight that was fought here tbh:

https://www.boards.ie/mobile/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103757127

Of course Corbyn survived leadership challenges he wasn’t supppsed to survive and then way outperformed expectations at the ballot box. And he’ll do so again when the time comes.

Largest turn outs at political party leadership elections in British history turning Labour into the party with the largest membership in Europe provides 2-in-a-row landslide victories followed by largest gains in a general election since before the war.

What a failure, he has no mandate, he has to go!

Professor Moriarty

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Largest turn outs at political party leadership elections in British history turning Labour into the party with the largest membership in Europe provides 2-in-a-row landslide victories followed by largest gains in a general election since before the war.

What a failure, he has no mandate, he has to go!

In 2016, his MPs voted 172-40 in favour of a no confidence motion against him. I'd say that figure would be higher today.

Subcomandante Marcos

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

In 2016, his MPs voted 172-40 in favour of a no confidence motion against him. I'd say that figure would be higher today.

And then he won a landslide victory in the leadership election.

Tom Mann Centuria

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

In 2016, his MPs voted 172-40 in favour of a no confidence motion against him. I'd say that figure would be higher today.

Not sure how your maths works. 7 MPs from this lot, plus those suspended or don't have the whip means that would be virtually impossible.

Hurrache

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

"OMG WHAT FAILURES!!!"


You couldn't make this stuff.

You really couldn't could you. Biggest crisis in Britain since wartime and the main opposition party set to continue to be just that, opposition, leading a split party.

What's with the rabid defence of the man on an Irish website flying in the face of all the facts?

Havockk

Hurrache wrote: »

You really couldn't could you. Biggest crisis in Britain since wartime and the main opposition party set to continue to be just that, opposition, leading a split party.

What's with the rabid defence of the man on an Irish website flying in the face of all the facts?

This has got to farcical proportions. The centre neoliberal wing of the labour party never accepted him and it was knives out from the start, and they leave it to a little under 40 days from brexit to split the opposition wide open to leave everyone at the mercy of a far-right tory govt for the foreseeable future. Behaving like Children.

Sam Tarry sums it up nicely here -
https://twitter.com/i/status/1097555101219196928

LuckyLloyd

Hurrache wrote: »

You really couldn't could you. Biggest crisis in Britain since wartime and the main opposition party set to continue to be just that, opposition, leading a split party.

What's with the rabid defence of the man on an Irish website flying in the face of all the facts?

What “facts” underpin the supposed anti - semitism “issues”? What are the specific allegations / problems / examples?

Hurrache

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What “facts” underpin the supposed anti - semitism “issues”? What are the specific allegations / problems / examples?

What's that got to do with the post you quoted,. i.e. a split labour party destined to remain in opposition because they're an utterly toothless opposition in parliament to the detriment of their country?

Subcomandante Marcos

Well the facts are that he has made labour the largest political party in Europe in terms of registered members, he won two landslide leadership election victories in quick succession, made the largest gains in post war election history from a base that was completely destroyed by the "new labour" Torylites to the point that the Tory's expected to considerable INCREASE their already existing majority, and survived several attempted coups from disgruntled Torylite MP's and a concerted media campaign from almost all sides to paint him as Hitler incarnate and is now presenting the only credible, workable proposal to dealing with the Brexit mess that David Cameron and Teresa May created.

Those are the facts.

LuckyLloyd

Hurrache wrote: »

What's that got to do with the post you quoted?

You want to throw around the word “facts” on Corbyn, let’s do exactly that!

Professor Moriarty

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Not sure how your maths works. 7 MPs from this lot, plus those suspended or don't have the whip means that would be virtually impossible.

Since 2016 his leadership has proven to be terrible and his approval ratings are terrible. And he's hemorrhaging MPs. All of this in the context of a Tory meltdown in the past year. Nah, his own MPs would dump him in the morning if they could.

oscarBravo

Havockk wrote: »

What about that time you claimed Labour were 'miles behind' only to then turn round and say you were talking about Corbyns leadership when it was pointed out both were dead even?

What about the repeated times I've pointed out that Labour appear incapable of doing better than barely drawing level with a Conservative party that couldn't find its arse with both hands, a map and a Sherpa guide?

If the highest praise you have for Corbyn is "he isn't less popular than May anymore", I think that speaks for itself.

Havockk

oscarBravo wrote: »

What about the repeated times I've pointed out that Labour appear incapable of doing better than barely drawing level with a Conservative party that couldn't find its arse with both hands, a map and a Sherpa guide?

If the highest praise you have for Corbyn is "he isn't less popular than May anymore", I think that speaks for itself.

You accept you were wrong then?

Hurrache

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You want to throw around the word “facts” on Corbyn, let’s do exactly that!

So you're saying the polls are wrong, they're looking like they will win the next election because they're doing such a great job with the Brexit crisis?

Because otherwise I'm still struggling to see what the relevancy here is other than to deflect.

MrMusician18

oscarBravo wrote: »

What about the repeated times I've pointed out that Labour appear incapable of doing better than barely drawing level with a Conservative party that couldn't find its arse with both hands, a map and a Sherpa guide?

If the highest praise you have for Corbyn is "he isn't less popular than May anymore", I think that speaks for itself.

Didn't you say they were miles behind in the polls?

Professor Moriarty

Havockk wrote: »

You accept you were wrong then?

An average of all polls conducted in 2019 have May's approval rating at 31% and Corbyn's at 24%. That's how bad he is.

Havockk

Hurrache wrote: »

So you're saying the polls are wrong, they're looking like they will win the next election because they're doing such a great job with the Brexit crisis?

Because otherwise I'm still struggling to see what the relevancy here is other than to deflect.

Nothing to deflect. The context of the conversation here is about 7 MP's leaving the opposition party, right in the midst of a major constitutional crisis. The effects of which are to make a bad situation worse.... but we can console ourselves by calling unprincipled people principled.

No feckin wonder we are in the current mess.

Havockk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

An average of all polls conducted in 2019 have May's approval rating at 31% and Corbyn's at 24%. That's how bad he is.

We both know that the only poll worth talking about is the last.

Hurrache

Havockk wrote: »

We both know that the only poll worth talking about is the last.

The one that projects a gain of seats for the Conservatives from last week or the week before?

The truth of the matter is that British politics is in a ridiculously bad state at the moment on all sides and it's not going to get better any time soon, least of all for their electorate.

Professor Moriarty

Havockk wrote: »

We both know that the only poll worth talking about is the last.

Eh, no. We don't know that at all. If I'm a Labour MP looking to Corbyn to lead me into a glorious future and ensuring I keep my seat, then I'd be keeping a beady eye on the polls. I'd be wondering how my party would be doing under a leader who wasn't so unpopular.

oscarBravo

Havockk wrote: »

You accept you were wrong then?

Was I wrong not to note that Labour have just recently increased in the polls from "worse than a flaming bag of dog turds" to "about as bad as a flaming bag of dog turds"? Sure, if it makes you happy, I was wrong.

Now, when you're done basking in the glory of that victory, can we discuss the more salient point, which is just how bad a party has to be to have only recently scraped level with a May-led Tory government?

MrMusician18

Havockk wrote: »

We both know that the only poll worth talking about is the last.

Anyone know what Vince cables approval is? Out of interest

Professor Moriarty

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Anyone know what Vince cables approval is? Out of interest

Averaging 20% in 2019.

listermint

oscarBravo wrote: »

Was I wrong not to note that Labour have just recently increased in the polls from "worse than a flaming bag of dog turds" to "about as bad as a flaming bag of dog turds"? Sure, if it makes you happy, I was wrong.

Now, when you're done basking in the glory of that victory, can we discuss the more salient point, which is just how bad a party has to be to have only recently scraped level with a May-led Tory government?

No no you're wrong

Corbyn has a genius plan he's known what he is doing for the last two years. And will unveil his master plan in march in the final week.

You just wait and see

Franz Von Peppercorn

oscarBravo wrote: »

What about the repeated times I've pointed out that Labour appear incapable of doing better than barely drawing level with a Conservative party that couldn't find its arse with both hands, a map and a Sherpa guide?

If the highest praise you have for Corbyn is "he isn't less popular than May anymore", I think that speaks for itself.

What about the repeated times I've pointed out that no labour leader could have opposed the referendum result.

Havockk

oscarBravo wrote: »

Was I wrong not to note that Labour have just recently increased in the polls from "worse than a flaming bag of dog turds" to "about as bad as a flaming bag of dog turds"? Sure, if it makes you happy, I was wrong.

Now, when you're done basking in the glory of that victory, can we discuss the more salient point, which is just how bad a party has to be to have only recently scraped level with a May-led Tory government?

I've lost silly points before and owned them. No lost honour in that.

Subcomandante Marcos

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What about the repeated times I've pointed out that no labour leader could have opposed the referendum result.

Or that nobody in the labour party would currently beat Corbyn in a leadership election, or that Corbyn is currently the Labour MP with the highest approval rating?