Memories of corporal punishment

is_that_so

jmreire wrote: »

While the threat of punishment for misbehaving probably would have an effect,
but the problem in Irish schools at that time was, unless your Parents were pillars of the local business society, guilt or innocence did not matter...you got clattered anyway. It all depended on the whim of the teachers on the day. It was out of control.

I think it depended on the school. Some schools had a rep for being strong on discipline and some had teachers who were naturally brutal. I also think that the proportion of discipline kids received was directly related to their ability to learn. Smart kids rarely got hit.

Mixed memories of it myself. Some clatters in primary, usually for "cheek" or messing. Very occasional random ones in secondary, again usually for "cheek". The leather was preferred but only administered for "unacceptable" behaviour . By 5th year it had stopped as most kids were bigger than the teachers.

jmreire

is_that_so wrote: »

I think it depended on the school. Some schools had a rep for being strong on discipline and some had teachers who were naturally brutal. I also think that the proportion of discipline kids received was directly related to their ability to learn. Smart kids rarely got hit.

Mixed memories of it myself. Some clatters in primary, usually for "cheek" or messing. Very occasional random ones in secondary, again usually for "cheek". The leather was preferred but only administered for "unacceptable" behaviour . By 5th year it had stopped as most kids were bigger than the teachers.

Sure, most of the comments here are about abusers, but in my experience and to be fair, there were some genuine teachers there too. They would still hit you ( but only because you deserved it ) as against some frustrated individual's who took their angst out on their helpless victims, to such an extent that they still bear the scar's even today, emotional and physical. As you say, by secondary school stage, pupils were bigger and less inclined to take abuse, so it was not as prevalent then.

is_that_so

jmreire wrote: »

Sure, most of the comments here are about abusers, but in my experience and to be fair, there were some genuine teachers there too. They would still hit you ( but only because you deserved it ) as against some frustrated individual's who took their angst out on their helpless victims, to such an extent that they still bear the scar's even today, emotional and physical. As you say, by secondary school stage, pupils were bigger and less inclined to take abuse, so it was not as prevalent then.

One of the problems of the CBS is that they were kids themselves when they went in at the age of 14 to be educated. They then spent their life around men, some of them very dogmatic, some with no social skills and some downright brutal. For many people who did get a clatter it was the accepted way that society disciplined misbehaviour in children. It does not excuse the outright violence of some so-called teachers.

Paddy Cow

4ensic15 wrote: »

Who said they were educated.

So the people who were educated in schools didn't become hard workers who provided money for the state and the hard workers weren't educated but became tax payers. What on earth are you smoking?

4ensic15

Paddy Cow wrote: »

So the people who were educated in schools didn't become hard workers who provided money for the state and the hard workers weren't educated but became tax payers. What on earth are you smoking?

The people who were educated and became hard workers are grateful for it. The ones who are complaining are wasters.

Plumbthedepths

4ensic15 wrote:

The people who were educated and became hard workers are grateful for it. The ones who are complaining are wasters.

'It's best to have people think you're a fool, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt' Great expression and so appropriate.

AndrewJRenko

suicide_circus wrote: »

not looking for the return of the cane or the strap but i wonder how much teaching time is lost nowadays with teachers dealing with unruly kids compared to back in the day?

Probably a similar amount of time as is lost in workplaces and family homes dealing with unruly adults or kids. Would you consider beating your workmates around the office or the building site when they fail to understand you or make a mistake?

AndrewJRenko

4ensic15 wrote: »

I am not saying none of them were employed. The ones who are complaining are the ones who were not employed.

Well I'm complaining now, and my parents were employed.


So where does that leave your hypothesis?

Paddy Cow

4ensic15 wrote: »

The people who were educated and became hard workers are grateful for it. The ones who are complaining are wasters.

Will ya stop. You said the hard workers had no school education and implied that education was wasted on others. If you are trolling it's a poor effort. If you believe what you are posting then you're a lost cause. Either way you are not someone I would take seriously.

Paddy Cow

It comes up from time to time that children had more respect when adults were allowed to give them a slap. Obviously this is nostalgic bullsh!t and these people should be made read this thread. If corporal punishment was effective, it would only be needed once. One kid would be smacked around and the rest would study hard and behave :rolleyes:

Instead what happened was kids were so afraid of getting hit they froze, forgot stuff, failed and generally didn't learn boundaries because those in power abused it and used it as a weapon to take out their own frustrations.

Physical abuse has NO place in the classroom. Parents do need to take responsibility for their kids and see through punishments from teachers such as detention etc but I would hate for us to go back to the days when teachers could do whatever they wanted.

Snow Garden

This thread brings back memories for me. One Christian brother in our CBS was a particularly brutal and sadistic bastard. He was vice principal when I was there. You always knew when one of the lads came back from one of his beatings because even the toughest of them was crying and they would always grab the metal legs of the table to cool down their sore red hands. He was also known for lifting little boys up in the air using their locks or ears. I remember hearing that one 4th class lay teacher challenged him on some random act of cruelty and the brother became furious. That particular lay teacher moved to a new school after the summer. The black leather strap was the weapon of choice and it was sore.

Anyone that thinks violence against children can bring any benefit whatsoever needs to have a long hard look at themselves. Violence begets violence. The state finally recognised this fact in the 1980s and yet some morons don't agree in 2019. The mind boggles.

Edgarfrndly

I move to a new school in second standard. This was around 1991 ish. I'm pretty sure corporal punishment was banned by then, but our teacher would hit us with a ruler if we did anything wrong. We either had to hit ourselves 10 times with the ruler, or one hard hit from her. I would always hit myself and pull back just as I hit so it wouldn't hurt. It was really weird for me because no teacher before or after that year had ever hit us.

realitykeeper

Sardonicat wrote: »

Yes the money kept the orders in palatial convents with, as my late, no nonsense atheist uncle described "shag pile carpets up to their arses!".

May God have mercy on the rude, the vulgar, the jealous and the pagans.

realitykeeper

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Where do you think the state gets money from? An orchard of money trees?

Actually the Irish central bank borrowed the money into existance via the printing press. Far easier than plucking 50s from trees you will agree.

realitykeeper

jmreire wrote: »

While the threat of punishment for misbehaving probably would have an effect,
but the problem in Irish schools at that time was, unless your Parents were pillars of the local business society, guilt or innocence did not matter...you got clattered anyway. It all depended on the whim of the teachers on the day. It was out of control.

Clever people have clever kids. Clever kids get their sums right. Foolish kids jump to wrong conclusions. Clever parents tend to be more successful than their foolish counterparts because clever parents are clever (unlike their foolish counterparts). So you see, it really was not an issue of class.

realitykeeper

Snow Garden wrote: »

This thread brings back memories for me. One Christian brother in our CBS was a particularly brutal and sadistic bastard.

Come now, I`m sure he was a lovely fellow.

4ensic15

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Well I'm complaining now, and my parents were employed.


So where does that leave your hypothesis?

You are a moaner anyway.

4ensic15

jmreire wrote: »

Define "Educated".

What's this? A school?

Snow Garden

realitykeeper wrote: »

Come now, I`m sure he was a lovely fellow.

No he wasn't. There were also allegations of child sexual abuse but he died before anything went to court. 2 other brothers in that primary school were presecuted for child sexual abuse. The principal of the school was another angry man with a drink problem but he left the brotherhood and eventually got married.

Sardonicat

realitykeeper wrote: »

jmreire wrote: »

While the threat of punishment for misbehaving probably would have an effect,
but the problem in Irish schools at that time was, unless your Parents were pillars of the local business society, guilt or innocence did not matter...you got clattered anyway. It all depended on the whim of the teachers on the day. It was out of control.

Clever people have clever kids. Clever kids get their sums right. Foolish kids jump to wrong conclusions. Clever parents tend to be more successful than their foolish counterparts because clever parents are clever (unlike their foolish counterparts). So you see, it really was not an issue of class.

How clever do you have to be to become an Internet troll. 'Cos if this is what you do to pass the time you must have been black and blue from Senior Infants to the Leaving (or was it the Group in your case? ).

Paddy Cow

realitykeeper wrote: »

But surely if the kids misbehave knowing that corporal punishment is the consequence they would stop misbehaving and start behaving.

Kids have the attention span of a goldfish. It's not a case of telling them once not to do something and expecting them to always follow that rule. They are rash and impulsive. They don't have the self control or cognitive ability to foresee the consequences of their actions the way adults do. It's the job of adults to teach them how to become productive members of society. It's a long process and battering them when they don't behave how adults want doesn't help. It frightens, belittles and humiliates them which leads to self esteem and anger issues.

Back in the heady days of Catholic Ireland, schools were mainly run by nuns and Christian brothers. They lived an unnatural life of celibacy and isolation. They didn't have partners or kids of their own and it lead to a lot of pent up frustration, which they took out on kids. Nuns don't have the same reputation for sexual abuse that the Brothers/Priests have but they were sadistic in the classroom. There were plenty of kids back then who had undiagnosed vulnerabilities such as dyslexia/ADHD etc and they targeted those kids and beat them black and blue and inflicted long term psychological damage, telling them they were stupid and would never amount to anything.

I know there were plenty of lay sadistic teachers. These were a product of their environment. Back then the three most prestigious careers were Doctor, Priest and Teacher. There wasn't a lot of career choices outside of farming and a lot of people ended up as teachers who weren't fit for the role. They were people who had been battered as a kid and then repeated the cycle.

I was in primary school in the 80's (when physical punishment had been abolished) but got many an unfair whacks and punches in the back from nuns. My mother went and complained because she knew from her own childhood what they are like, but it made no difference. My father was from the generation where serious abuse was rife and he was so traumatised by his first year in secondary school, he ran away from home. At 12 years of age he decided he was going to live in Australia and he got 20 miles before they found him :pac: It's a funny story now but it wasn't funny for him back then My sister is 12 years younger than me and thankfully she has no stories of being hit by a teacher. She cannot comprehend how teachers did that and were allowed to get away with it. What a difference a decade makes!

I know you won't take any of this on board and will just come back with a silly response which belies your username but I needed to get that off my chest.

Snow Garden

Great post Paddy Cow. It is important to remember that many people are still suffering psychologically because of violence and abuse by the relgious order teachers.

4ensic15

Paddy Cow wrote: »

= Back then the three most prestigious careers were Doctor, Priest and Teacher. There wasn't a lot of career choices outside of farming and a lot of people ended up as teachers who weren't fit for the role. They were people who had been battered as a kid and then repeated the cycle.

Teacher was nver in the top three as a prestigious career. What about law, accountancy, engineering, veterinary vetc. Even in the public service there were jobs such as diplomat which were more prestigious. Most teachers were people who couldn't afford or hadn't the brains for a proper education.

Paddy Cow

4ensic15 wrote: »

Teacher was nver in the top three as a prestigious career.

In the heady days of Catholic Ireland, yes it was.

What about law, accountancy, engineering, veterinary vetc. Even in the public service there were jobs such as diplomat which were more prestigious. Most teachers were people who couldn't afford or hadn't the brains for a proper education.

Those are modern careers and very achievable for anyone who completes the leaving cert, despite their economic background. We live in the age where education is valued and thankfully we are not like the Americans where you have to buy your way into 3rd level education.

I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree. You are after all the person who thinks education was wasted on the poor and hard workers got to be where they are without an education :rolleyes:

realitykeeper

Snow Garden wrote: »

No he wasn't. There were also allegations of child sexual abuse but he died before anything went to court.

Well then, he must be presumed innocent.

Snow Garden

.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Well then, he must be presumed innocent.

You're acting very strange for the person who started this thread. Yes he is presumed innocent for sexual abuse of children but he was most certainly a cruel, sadistic and violent Christian brother. He stood out amongst a lot of cruel warped brothers. Hitting children day in and day out is what cowards do.

byhookorbycrook

I started school in the 70s, aged 3 and a half,as the school needed numbers. As well as the usual ruler (sideways on) across the bare legs, I had my left hand tied to the back of the old fashioned desk and was routinely struck across the face for not using my right hand. also had metal clothes pegs put on our lips regularly. When I got " the call" to teaching in the 80s (which was a BIG deal) I cited the abuse I had suffered as the reason I wanted to teach- to show children a different way. The interview board were somewhat taken aback, as the usual spiff was that you had an inspirational teacher or "loved children"(which was , even then, a bit dodgy) but knew exactly where I was coming from.
For the record, I really enjoy working with children, but don't necessarily love every single one unconditionally.

4ensic15

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Those are modern careers and very achievable for anyone who completes the leaving cert, despite their economic background. We live in the age where education is valued and thankfully we are not like the Americans where you have to buy your way into 3rd level education.

Those are not modern careers. There were engineers and accountants and lawyers around in biblical times. When does your modern start? The last Ice Age?

Paddy Cow

4ensic15 wrote: »

Those are not modern careers. There were engineers and accountants and lawyers around in biblical times. When does your modern start? The last Ice Age?

How about the context of this thread? Or has it gone entirely above your head?

Teddy Daniels

I have had this discussion but I’ll comment again. I have never hit one of my dogs which I’ve been keeping 40 years . I have a son, a stern look sets him in his place , I only do it if he’s being crazy. I am old enough that I was hit in primary school it’s lazy and useless. If someone was to hit my child I would respond in a Newtonian fashion and I find it hard to believe that I would have done differently in the day.

Like it’s not like schoolteachers are known to be good scrappers ( the film warrior was a fiction iirc)

Snow Garden

_Brian wrote: »

Was hammered daily for being left handed.
Bleak times.

One of my school friends was left handed and he was certainly given a hard time for it. I don't think they beat it out of him though. He was an amazing artist which probably helped his cause.

ohnonotgmail

Snow Garden wrote: »

One of my school friends was left handed and he was certainly given a hard time for it. I don't think they beat it out of him though. He was an amazing artist which probably helped his cause.

well it depends how long ago we are talking. My older brother certainly had it beaten out of him in the 60s. If he tried to write with his left hand he got a whack on the knuckles with a ruler.

Plumbthedepths

ohnonotgmail wrote:

well it depends how long ago we are talking. My older brother certainly had it beaten out of him in the 60s. If he tried to write with his left hand he got a whack on the knuckles with a ruler.

The 'good sisters' tried to beat it out me in the mid 70's I was 4/5 years old, I would often go home in agony. Terrified to go to school the next day. This went on for several weeks.It took my father to suggest where he would leave his size 10 army boot for them to stop.

realitykeeper

There is a condition called "false memory syndrome." That might explain some of the less plausible posts.

Personally I will be eternally grateful to the holy nuns and of course the Christian and Presentation Brothers, all of whom taught me at one time or another.

Edgware

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The 'good sisters' tried to beat it out me in the mid 70's I was 4/5 years old, I would often go home in agony. Terrified to go to school the next day. This went on for several weeks.It took my father to suggest where he would leave his size 10 army boot for them to stop.

Mid 70s? Codswallop

Snow Garden

realitykeeper wrote: »

There is a condition called "false memory syndrome." That might explain some of the less plausible posts.

Personally I will be eternally grateful to the holy nuns and of course the Christian and Presentation Brothers, all of whom taught me at one time or another.

False memory syndrome Wow they really did a number on you. I think they call it Stockholm Syndrome!

Here is your original post

Recently I was thinking of my school days when corporal punishment was practiced. Even when I was not the recipient of this form of punishment but just a witness, it was very frightening - especially when the children were punished for things like poor homework or classwork (as opposed to behaving badly).

Paradoxically, I retain tremendous respect for one teacher who beat and terrified kids but got the job done. His frustration always came through when he was shouting at us and this made me aware of the need to study hard and focus.

I also remember the smell of freshly baked bread from the bakery of the way to school and to this day, I feel a sense of dread when I smell freshly baked bread.

Instances of corporal punishment were still common in the early eighties but not so much after that. Anyone else have, memories of corporal punishment, be they witnessed or experienced? If so, you might find it cathartic to share them (or not).

I do remember the various impliments used. A duster, a strong angular stick, a leather, a short rounded stick, a hand, a pencil. Scary stuff for a seven year old.

You're scared of bread? You're a great bunch of lads!

Edgware

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I started school in the 70s, aged 3 and a half,as the school needed numbers. As well as the usual ruler (sideways on) across the bare legs, I had my left hand tied to the back of the old fashioned desk and was routinely struck across the face for not using my right hand. also had metal clothes pegs put on our lips regularly. When I got " the call" to teaching in the 80s (which was a BIG deal) I cited the abuse I had suffered as the reason I wanted to teach- to show children a different way. The interview board were somewhat taken aback, as the usual spiff was that you had an inspirational teacher or "loved children"(which was , even then, a bit dodgy) but knew exactly where I was coming from.
For the record, I really enjoy working with children, but don't necessarily love every single one unconditionally.

We believe you

Plumbthedepths

Edgware wrote:

Mid 70s? Codswallop

No it's true, I could name the school and the piece of scum nun but I ain't identifying myself here.

Plumbthedepths

Edgware wrote:

We believe you

We? You only get to speak for yourself.

Snow Garden

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

No it's true, I could name the school and the piece of scum nun but I ain't identifying myself here.

Ignore him, he is a troublesome member of the Gardaí.

Edgware

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

We? You only get to speak for yourself.

Frank McCourt made his money out of the miserable Irish childhood. Time to move on

johnnyfoxy

I can still feel the stinging burn of the ruler on my hand.

Plumbthedepths

Edgware wrote:

Frank McCourt made his money out of the miserable Irish childhood. Time to move on

Do what you want, don't presume to tell others what to do. Anyway time to put you on ignore.

4ensic15

Paddy Cow wrote: »

How about the context of this thread? Or has it gone entirely above your head?

How does the context of this thread make
1. teaching a prestigious career;
2. Make it one of the 3 most prestigious careers;
3. Accountancy, engineering and law modern careers?

Teaching only became a career in the 19th century and teachers were known as "bum bruisers" which shows what they were employed to do.

.......

Edgware wrote: »

Mid 70s? Codswallop

Not codswallop at all.

Children were beaten in our primary school in the late 70s for being left handed.

is_that_so

Snow Garden wrote: »

False memory syndrome

No, this shows up in very small ways in our daily lives the further we go from a time period, where misremembered events can become actual truth. Very common in families!

is_that_so

Snow Garden wrote: »

Great post Paddy Cow. It is important to remember that many people are still suffering psychologically because of violence and abuse by the relgious order teachers.

One is a sum of the events in one's life, not just ones that can no longer affect us but to do that we need to put them in their place not carry them with us.

realitykeeper

Snow Garden wrote: »

False memory syndrome Wow they really did a number on you. I think they call it Stockholm Syndrome!

Here is your original post



You're scared of bread? You're a great bunch of lads!

The Holy Nuns and the Christian and Presentation Brothers were wonderful educators in my experience. The lay teachers by contrast were brutal.

What you call Stolkholm Syndrome, others would call that forgiveness. The term Stolkholm syndrome is often sited by embittered people who simply don`t want to forgive. Let us hope the victims of their malace are of a kinder disposition.

realitykeeper

Edgware wrote: »

Mid 70s? Codswallop

My thoughts exactly.

realitykeeper

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Do what you want, don't presume to tell others what to do. Anyway time to put you on ignore.

First you tell the guy what to do and then you tell him not to tell others what to do. Talk about double standards! Time to put you on ignore.