Memories of corporal punishment

Fatswaldo

Reading previous posts brings it back! Getting two slaps on the hand with a wooden stick as a 5 year old was a shocker coming from a home without violence. Two teacher, all boys school, female junior teacher and then graduate to the big room - with big stick. A leg off a chair was used, with the unfortunate child sent to the masters press to get the stick. 2, 4 or 6 strokes delivered. Sometimes for the smallest indiscretion. We hated the sight of him. It was very wrong but.. at the time it was the norm. I don't remember losing sleep or anything over it, got worse slaps on the hurling field. When the headmaster died years later there was a massive funeral. Lots of lads said they turned up to make sure the B@st@rd was dead.

road_high

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Shur I even remember teachers in the 2000's having to hold themselves back from hitting people. Some would have used it in the past.
They generally had no class room control, read directly out of the book but it was always the students fault. Other teachers didn't have much of an issue tough.

We had an old-school history teacher late 90s and he commanded such discipline and respect that he never needed to hit or threaten people- he was the best, most engaging teacher I ever had and was a total expert on his subject. Total control of the class at all times. Some people are cut out for teaching or they aren’t and there in usually lies the problem

gozunda

Fatswaldo wrote: »

Reading previous posts brings it back! Getting two slaps on the hand with a wooden stick as a 5 year old was a shocker coming from a home without violence. Two teacher, all boys school, female junior teacher and then graduate to the big room - with big stick. A leg off a chair was used, with the unfortunate child sent to the masters press to get the stick. 2, 4 or 6 strokes delivered. Sometimes for the smallest indiscretion. We hated the sight of him. It was very wrong but.. at the time it was the norm. I don't remember losing sleep or anything over it, got worse slaps on the hurling field. When the headmaster died years later there was a massive funeral. Lots of lads said they turned up to make sure the B@st@rd was dead.

There was a PE and Irish teacher in my sisters school who was the definition of a b1tch and a bully. God but she loved herself. I reckon she was a psychopath - my sister used to say if she couldn't get at you - she tried to get to you . She broke a girl's pelvis forcing her to do the splits. The teacher wasn't even suspended after that - makes you wonder how some people get away with such behaviour tbh ...

Ipso

road_high wrote: »

When did that die out in schools? My sister is late 30s and left handed and don’t think she had any problems. Thankfully

Imagine being dyslexic back then! You were just wrote off as being thick.

DEFTLEFTHAND

gozunda wrote: »

There was a PE and Irish teacher in my sisters school who was the definition of a b1tch and a bully. God but she loved herself. I reckon she was a psychopath - my sister used to say if she couldn't get at you - she tried to get to you . She broke a girl's pelvis forcing her to do the splits. The teacher wasn't even suspended after that - makes you wonder how some people get away with such behaviour tbh ...

We'd one who berated a group of us (boys) for hammering the girls basketball team in a lunchtime game.

She lined us against the wall and ate us. Shouting 'does that make you feel like big men.'

They were playing some league final that week and she felt that we had undermined their confidence as none of us had ever really played basketball before.

Flaccus

gozunda wrote: »

There was a PE and Irish teacher in my sisters school who was the definition of a b1tch and a bully. God but she loved herself. I reckon she was a psychopath - my sister used to say if she couldn't get at you - she tried to get to you . She broke a girl's pelvis forcing her to do the splits. The teacher wasn't even suspended after that - makes you wonder how some people get away with such behaviour tbh ...

My PE teacher held me under water in the swimming pool because i had a fear of swimming at the time. I nearly drowned and he told me in front of the class that if i told the parents it would go bad for me and them. He was an olympic throws coach, 6 foot 4, i was 12. He died a while bsck. Good riddance to him too.

freshpopcorn

road_high wrote: »

We had an old-school history teacher late 90s and he commanded such discipline and respect that he never needed to hit or threaten people- he was the best, most engaging teacher I ever had and was a total expert on his subject. Total control of the class at all times. Some people are cut out for teaching or they aren’t and there in usually lies the problem

Couldn't agree more with this.
I've seen people become teachers because mammy and daddy wanted them or they wanted a stable job.
They weren't gone on kids/teenagers. They were generally good kids in school and have difficult dealing with anybody who's a little but troublesome or not good enough. They can be afraid to try any type of restorative practice/positive behaviour management but just yell and shout.
Teachers have told me this. The way some teachers speak about kids in the staff room is appalling.

road_high

Ipso wrote: »

Imagine being dyslexic back then! You were just wrote off as being thick.

Definitely. My primary schooling was from end of the 80s to mid 90s and looking back there were definitely people with minor learning difficulties/ things that could have been easily addressed with the right support. School must have been torture. One chap I was pally with was bullied by both fellow students and the teachers.
I really hope things have improved, I think there has been a major overhaul at primary level in teaching quality and methodology. And that the fear we had had been removed. I was good in school but I still lived in fear of making a mistake with the resultant bollockings and seneless put downs.

road_high

Flaccus wrote: »

My PE teacher held me under water in the swimming pool because i had a fear of swimming at the time. I nearly drowned and he told me in front of the class that if i told the parents it would go bad for me and them. He was an olympic throws coach, 6 foot 4, i was 12. He died a while bsck. Good riddance to him too.

At the very least that was assault and of the most serious kind. And I bet he did!
Around what year did that happen?

professore

Sisters of mercy used to beat us with a bamboo cane (stings like hell), a metre stick, or a piece of wood like a 2x4 but it was some sort of hard wood like oak and came off a piece of furniture.

Mostly administered to your hand or your arse. Was a badge of manliness to take your punishment without flinching. Only the most extreme of the girls ever got any corporal punishment, in fact it was one girl in particular who got it. All the boys did.

Some even did it like that kid from Covingnton Catholic school ... a bit off topic, but COME ON, what teenage boy from Ireland back in the day on a school tour to DC wouldn't buy a MAGA hat and strut around Washington ... even if he hated Trump ????

Ipso

road_high wrote: »

Definitely. My primary schooling was from end of the 80s to mid 90s and looking back there were definitely people with minority learning difficulties/ things that could have been easily addressed with the right support. School must have been torture. One chap I was pally with was bullied by both fellow students and the teachers.
I really hope things have improved, I think there has been a major overhaul at primary level in teaching quality and methodology. And that the fear we had had been removed. I was good in school but I still lived in fear of making a mistake with the resultant bollockings and seneless put downs.

And on the other hand some people who done well were also ridiculed.
Without being pretentious, John lennon said it best: they hate you if you’re clever and they despise a fool.

professore

road_high wrote: »

At the very least that was assault and of the most serious kind. And I bet he did!
Around what year did that happen?

That's bad dude.

road_high

Ipso wrote: »

And on the other hand some people who done well were also ridiculed.
Without being pretentious, John lennon said it best: they hate you if you’re clever and they despise a fool.

Absolutely- I had a cousin a bit older than me and she is a very clever girl and was good in school- in the 80s that was seen as being a bit “too forward” and she had to be kept in her place too!

thebaz

Ipso wrote: »

Imagine being dyslexic back then! You were just wrote off as being thick.

I was , thats where many of my issues with school and authority came from , as someone said earlier the mental stuff, standing up in back of class was worse than the pysical hits (they wore off quick) , but the mental stuff made you a scapegoat for being called Thick - **** that - many years later I have turned it around and feal as good as anyone and my supposed betters, and done things that a Thick was supposed not to, in fact done more than the average supposed betters - Dyselexics can atually be quite smart (in things not taught at school

road_high

thebaz wrote: »

I was , thats where many of my issues with school and authority came from , as someone said earlier the mental stuff, standing up in back of class was worse than the pysical hits (they wore off quick) , but the mental stuff made you a scapegoat for being called Thick - **** that

I hope you got the right help with education thereafter- the structure and methodology was wrong for you but there are many supports for different ways of learning now.
I can understand how people were damaged by those experiences and hated school

.......

road_high wrote: »

I can understand how people were damaged by those experiences and hated school

I think it went further than hating school - for a long time I hated authority altogether.

cocokabana

I was in National School till 1993. I remember getting rapped across the knuckles by a witch of a teacher dozens of time. If you were a poor student, she made you stand beside her at her desk doing the three R's. Prime spot for getting a knuckle rap. I don't ever ever remember her getting up from her desk and walking around the students desks. She stayed seated from 9am till 3pm.

I remember one day, during knitting class, which I hated, I must have nodded off with boredom and she called me by sort of whistling to me, I whistled back at her! She threw the needles and wool she had in her hand across the classroom at me. I was probably made stand in the corner for that. She also loved making a big scene in front of the class of unravelling your knitting if you'd dropped a stitch or made a mess of it.

In the late 1990's some parents started to vocalise their discontent with her and her outdated teaching methods. She took early retirement. Humiliating small children in school had had it's day.

thebaz

....... wrote: »

I think it went further than hating school - for a long time I hated authority altogether.

I hear ya - I did that - and developed issues with drink - it was only when I conquered that , that issues from my education surfaced, in general I have made peace , for various reasons , I was angry too long, and many others suffered far worse than me.

.......

Even after corporal punishment was stopped (in most schools) we had teachers who just loved to humiliate.

I remember my english teacher in secondary school - we HATED his class because he would single someone out to make a show of them.

The key thing was not to catch his attention, so no one would show any creativity at all in case it drew his sneering public humiliation.

Of course as a result he had a class load of people where plenty had the potential to be exellent at english and were smart, but just got average grades to avoid public humiliation.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The dyslexia thing is funny because most of these arsehole teachers worshipped JFK and had his picture up in their classrooms.

JFK was dyslexic.

Waitsian

CBS Newry 1980s. I saw it all; had some of it inflicted on me too. Wasn't just Brothers either, or male teachers for that matter. Open handed slapped faces; single punches to the torso; slapped heads, hard; two handed joined fist across the back and shoulders; leather straps and wooden metre sticks on both sides of the hands and occasionally across the backs of legs; pulled hair and ears; dusters, books, chalk etc thrown at us; dragged by various articles of clothing. I could go on...

I was once grabbed by the knot of my tie and slammed against a locker, off my feet. Fear was part of the curriculum it seemed. It, and violence, were ever present.

Funny thing is though, it stopped once we were about 16. Big enough to fight back I suppose.

The building now lies empty. I hope it's knocked some day, and I'll not shed a tear. I'm always being asked to attend Past Pupil Assoc. dinners. No chance. Best days of your life? Huh.

mariaalice

I don't have any really bad memories of school except for books and dusters been thrown at me, although two primary school teachers I had should not have been teachers and one secondary school teacher who had what in today's terms would be described as mental health issues.

My husband went to a grammar school where they would have been considered the best of the best and they still got hit by the teachers and mad stuff such as a teacher using the leg of a chair and the like.

road_high

....... wrote: »

Even after corporal punishment was stopped (in most schools) we had teachers who just loved to humiliate.

.

The subtle and insidious mind games were worse i think- least if they hit you that was that but that mind stuff crept into your soul and being. Most of the stuff one witch we had as away beyond the pale of what is acceptable to ten year olds. The pettiness of it defies belief.

road_high

cocokabana wrote: »

I was in National School till 1993. I remember getting rapped across the knuckles by a witch of a teacher dozens of time. If you were a poor student, she made you stand beside her at her desk doing the three R's. Prime spot for getting a knuckle rap. I don't ever ever remember her getting up from her desk and walking around the students desks. She stayed seated from 9am till 3pm.

I remember one day, during knitting class, which I hated, I must have nodded off with boredom and she called me by sort of whistling to me, I whistled back at her! She threw the needles and wool she had in her hand across the classroom at me. I was probably made stand in the corner for that. She also loved making a big scene in front of the class of unravelling your knitting if you'd dropped a stitch or made a mess of it.

In the late 1990's some parents started to vocalise their discontent with her and her outdated teaching methods. She took early retirement. Humiliating small children in school had had it's day.

She sounds like the bitch we had- this wasn't in north Kilkenny by any chance?! I remember doing weaving which was hell and also making St. Brigids crosses which meant more screaming and demeaning of people.

cocokabana

road_high wrote: »

She sounds like the bitch we had- this wasn't in north Kilkenny by any chance?! I remember doing weaving which was hell and also making St. Brigids crosses which meant more screaming and demeaning of people.

No, but it was the SE !

James Brown

corner of hells wrote: »

I can remember the son of a famous Dublin footballer getting seven shades beaten out of him on a regular basis by a Kerry teacher in the 70s for no particular reason other than Kerry and Dublin.

Yep. I know a lad use to get a hammering because his teacher use to play against his father at county level.

I had to attempt to learn under punishment from scumbag drunks and people who just couldn't take to Dubliners. Animals the lot. Then there were the Brothers, evil small minded ignorant people.

sanjose1

I remember getting six of the best across the hand with a leather from an old **** in 5th class, distinctly remember the reason being I couldnt name three towns in Longford, got two of em, Edgewortstown being the one that escaped me. Never shed a tear when the old **** hit me though, the hatred got me through. Heard years layer the bastard should have gone to jail for greyhound fraud but escaped on account of having a "respectable" job.

TeaBagMania

i cant even begin to imagine being forced into a Catholic school as a kid (were there alternative back then?)

Still remember when my parents dropped me off for my first day of Sunday School, nun starts off with heaven, hell, god, jesus and all that garbage. Even as a kid i knew this story sounded like total bull***t

Had a few inquires for the nun about this malarkey and was told "i wasn't supposed to ask those kind of questions"
WTF? told her i was done and walked out. That was my first and last day dealing with the church

Parents knew better than trying to force me to attend and that it would only end badly for all parties involved.

TeaBagMania

Some of the first hand accounts here are awful

If im running my mouth, acting like a clown, or doing something that warrants corporal punishment that's one thing, but if you cold-cock me, kick me, or use an instrument on me for no reason... its game on.
Guarantee you the next day teacher/priest would have an appointment with my one handed louisville slugger and might make it back to work the next day if the hospital found fit to release them.

Don't know how you people found the self control to tolerate the abuse

road_high

TeaBagMania wrote: »

i cant even begin to imagine being forced into a Catholic school as a kid (were there alternative back then?)

Still remember when my parents dropped me off for my first day of Sunday School, nun starts off with heaven, hell, god, jesus and all that garbage. Even as a kid i knew this story sounded like total bull***t

Had a few inquires for the nun about this malarkey and was told "i wasn't supposed to ask those kind of questions"
WTF? told her i was done and walked out. That was my first and last day dealing with the church

Parents knew better than trying to force me to attend and that it would only end badly for all parties involved.

The only alternative was usually the “Protestant” COI Model school which my neighbors went to! Which was ridiculous segregation as we were very good friends and should have been in school together.
There was a non denominational in the local big town but they were very much in their infancy. Great to see so many Educate Togethers popping up, another step away from the small minded Catholic narrowness we endured.

road_high

My brother who is younger, he was in primary school early 90s onwards had a awful time learning prayers (more Catholic bull****e). Couldn’t get them into his head at all (probably had mild dyslexia, since completed a university degree). He still talks about the emotional abuse he endured, for what exactly? That teacher had a nervous breakdown since then and completely transformed thereafter!

Ubbquittious

I remember getting a clattering around the head for having the utter cheek to not attend another teachers' mothers' funeral. Another time I got a slap of a tin whistle on my knuckles that was sore for about 3 days. Both in the late 90s when corporal punishment was supposed to be banned

cocokabana

cocokabana wrote: »

I was in National School till 1993. I remember getting rapped across the knuckles by a witch of a teacher dozens of time.
.

Corporal punishment was banned in schools in 1982. It became a criminal offence in 1996/7. So she shouldn't have been hitting kids in 1993- I'm surprised that happened as even in the late 80's teachers knew better than to hit kids, at least in my school they did.

TeaBagMania

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Some of the first hand accounts here are awful

If im running my mouth, acting like a clown, or doing something that warrants corporal punishment that's one thing, but if you cold-cock me, kick me, or use an instrument on me for no reason... its game on.
Guarantee you the next day teacher/priest would have an appointment with my one handed louisville slugger and might make it back to work the next day if the hospital found fit to release them.

Don't know how you people found the self control to tolerate the abuse

As someone said earlier, if you went home and said you got hit, you may well have got a further clatter- Teachers, Nuns, Priests, Brothers could do no wrong back in the day.

tayto lover

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Some of the first hand accounts here are awful

If im running my mouth, acting like a clown, or doing something that warrants corporal punishment that's one thing, but if you cold-cock me, kick me, or use an instrument on me for no reason... its game on.
Guarantee you the next day teacher/priest would have an appointment with my one handed louisville slugger and might make it back to work the next day if the hospital found fit to release them.

Don't know how you people found the self control to tolerate the abuse

It wasn’t just physical, it was psychological too.

The teacher in my old primary school used to really put his weight into giving you 6 slaps with his cane on the hands.
He then rubbed it in. When you were trying not to cry and your hands were red raw and you were rubbing them together to try to ease the pain he then sent another boy to separate your hands and count your fingers. He sneeringly made the boy count your fingers out loud saying “make sure they’re all there”.

TeaBagMania

Guess i wouldn't have made it too far in old Ireland. Im just not the type to sit idle and let anyone beat me

The abuse is probably why a lot of Irish jumped ship to America

road_high

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I remember getting a clattering around the head for having the utter cheek to not attend another teachers' mothers' funeral. Another time I got a slap of a tin whistle on my knuckles that was sore for about 3 days. Both in the late 90s when corporal punishment was supposed to be banned

What kind of weirdo would expect a child to attend the funeral of another teachers mother? Talk about sadist small minded ireland

road_high

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Corporal punishment was banned in schools in 1982. It became a criminal offence in 1996/7. So she shouldn't have been hitting kids in 1993- I'm surprised that happened as even in the late 80's teachers knew better than to hit kids, at least in my school they did.

My school it went on into the early mid 90s, can remember it vividly. Snacks across the back of the head and especially pen across the knuckles. I can assure you plenty didn’t know better!

TeaBagMania

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Guess i wouldn't have made it too far in old Ireland. Im just not the type to sit idle and let anyone beat me

The abuse is probably why a lot of Irish jumped ship to America

Well that and Charles J Haughey with his penchant for Charvet shirts and ortolan meals with his bit on the side instead of running the country.

DeanAustin

valoren wrote: »

Would be great to read stories where after getting clattered by a teacher, said teacher runs into one of their ex-pupils, and get's a hiding. There is something very pleasing in the schadenfreude of a cnut getting their just deserts.

I have a mate, big bastard, who got hammered in school by one of these *****. A few years after he left school, he was out for a walk and sees her man approaching him coming the other way. He said nothing but unleashed the mother of all right hooks and laid yer man out. Said he just walked on and left the ****er sprawled out on the ground.

I know some will say he shouldn’t have done it but I disagree. Yer man 100% deserved what he got.

freshpopcorn

DeanAustin wrote: »

I have a mate, big bastard, who got hammered in school by one of these *****. A few years after he left school, he was out for a walk and sees her man approaching him coming the other way. He said nothing but unleashed the mother of all right hooks and laid yer man out. Said he just walked on and left the ****er sprawled out on the ground.

I know some will say he shouldn’t have done it but I disagree. Yer man 100% deserved what he got.

Now assaulting the elderly/etc isn't right.
However I'm aware of one situation where an abusive man got beat up. The media was upset but the locals didn't seem to care.

road_high

road_high wrote: »

My school it went on into the early mid 90s, can remember it vividly. Snacks across the back of the head and especially pen across the knuckles. I can assure you plenty didn’t know better!

Were you teenagers or primary? I can tell you now that if a teacher even tried to raise a hand to us in the late 80s' after the ban came in, the whole class would have turned on them- you could see around 83, 84, some "nearly did" but thought twice about it- it would have meant their job if they hit us and they knew that and we all knew that. I'm in disbelief that hitting kids went on after 1982.
I never experienced it. Even teachers who would be prone to throwing chalk sticks at people who were cheeky stopped soon after- the risk was just too much.

Ipso

road_high wrote: »

What kind of weirdo would expect a child to attend the funeral of another teachers mother? Talk about sadist small minded ireland

It seems the teaching field attracted many sadists, I wonder if they were just genuine psychos or if the profession was a dumping ground for those in the family who weren't "called' to priesthood.
Where I went to secondary school it seemed the most abusive teachers were those in the practical/manly subjects like woodwork, technical drawing etc
I'm surprised there hasn't been more sexual abuse stories towards teachers.

Conor84

Reading this makes me feel lucky that I wasnt in school in those days.Seems horiffic especially about little kids 4,5,7 getting whacked in primary school.

I was in Primary School 1988-1996. It was a fairly new school and mixed and honestly cant remember anybody even getting a ruler or anything.

Then changed to the Brothers for secondary and even with the teachers there then can imagine some of them would have been fans of whacking lads. There were only 3 or 4 Brothers left by then but some of the lay teachers had that same attitude. One of the teachers was big into hurling and would go up and down the classroom with the hurl and whack the back of your chair with it if he felt like it.

My form teacher was an Irish teacher and had a reputation in the school. He had gone to the same school as a kid and was local but had him for Irish every day for 5 years. He would shout and roar at us all but a few times would go a bit further than most in those times. He would fling hardbacks and chalk (still had chalk) at us and constantly belittle lads. I remember one day and saying something he didnt like and getting roared at to come up to the top of the class and he got me wedged up against a set of shelves in the corner beside the board and gave me a few jabs. He reefed off my tie and threw it out the window saying I didnt deserve to wear it and was an embarassment to the school. He had done similar to a few other lads in the class over the years. I know thats nothing compared to what many om here got but that was my "worst" experience.

I was decent at school but a messer and got into bother for things like talking back, smoking and getting into scraps and got "modern" punishments but say I would have had it a lot worse if I had been 10/15 years older.

road_high

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Were you teenagers or primary? I can tell you now that if a teacher even tried to raise a hand to us in the late 80s' after the ban came in, the whole class would have turned on them- you could see around 83, 84, some "nearly did" but thought twice about it- it would have meant their job if they hit us and they knew that and we all knew that. I'm in disbelief that hitting kids went on after 1982.
I never experienced it. Even teachers who would be prone to throwing chalk sticks at people who were cheeky stopped soon after- the risk was just too much.

This was primary school. I was in school late 80s to mid 90s. This stuff went on well into the 90s.

corminators

I remember in 1990/91 the dyslexic kid used to get the ****e beaten out of him in class by the teacher with the ruler

road_high

Ipso wrote: »

It seems the teaching field attracted many sadists, I wonder if they were just genuine psychos or if the profession was a dumping ground for those in the family who weren't "called' to priesthood.
Where I went to secondary school it seemed the most abusive teachers were those in the practical/manly subjects like woodwork, technical drawing etc
I'm surprised there hasn't been more sexual abuse stories towards teachers.

I don’t think you needed a degree qualification to teach woodwork. Had an uncle in law that definitely didn’t and he was a frustrated angry yoke

TCM

Recliner wrote:

A timber metre stick across the palm of the hand was the weapon of choice for the nuns in my primary school. If you had given any reason to displease the nun during the day, you knew what was coming. Lined up at the end of the day with your fellow criminals, one hand behind your back and one outstretched palm side up. And woe betide you if you pulled back your hand before the slap. The teachers pets got to pass judgement on us as to whether or not we escaped punishment, depending on the severity of our crimes. Really took bravery to assault sobbing 6/7/8 year olds. Jesus thinking about it now actually horrifies me. What sort of creatures would willingly do that to children and call themselves godly people? And I'm very aware that what I experienced is on the very mild end of what went on.

Your Face wrote:

Some lads got a bit worse and deserved them too.

Your Face wrote:

I got a few digs in the arm, nothing serious.

No pupil deserved to be beaten by a teacher.

freshpopcorn

Deleted User wrote: »

Were you teenagers or primary? I can tell you now that if a teacher even tried to raise a hand to us in the late 80s' after the ban came in, the whole class would have turned on them- you could see around 83, 84, some "nearly did" but thought twice about it- it would have meant their job if they hit us and they knew that and we all knew that. I'm in disbelief that hitting kids went on after 1982.
I never experienced it. Even teachers who would be prone to throwing chalk sticks at people who were cheeky stopped soon after- the risk was just too much.

I did hear of a teacher who tried the odd thing in the later 80's/early 90's and she was young enough then. She was hated by a lot but the better job/more well off your parents had the more she liked you and treated you better.
She had the odd slip up but generally wiggled out of it.

road_high

road_high wrote: »

This was primary school. I was in school late 80s to mid 90s. This stuff went on well into the 90s.

I'm surprised parents didn't complain so.

Even parental attitudes had started to change quite dramatically at that stage in terms of smacking and how harmful it was or at least how utterly useless it was but would have thought they would have had concerns if teachers were still hitting kids at that stage, 10 years after corporal punishment was banned.

While I believe you, I'm still in disbelief if you know what I mean.