Memories of corporal punishment

road_high

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm surprised parents didn't complain so.

Even parental attitudes had started to change quite dramatically at that stage in terms of smacking and how harmful it was or at least how utterly useless it was but would have thought they would have had concerns if teachers were still hitting kids at that stage, 10 years after corporal punishment was banned.

While I believe you, I'm still in disbelief if you know what I mean.

Yea but it was very subtle at times. “Light” hitting like stuff with pens flicking ears and knuckles. It definitely happened with regularity- I could name the kids in my class it happened to as they stood beside her desk. It’s clear as day to me. Remember a few times she went too far and she was all remorseful and praising of them after. I’d say she was selective perhaps in what kids she hit as the parents may not have been like my ma would be and came in. This was a school on a small rural town. Even then they still had some authority and possibly the backing of the local bollocks RC priest who was school patron

gozunda

Ipso wrote: »

It seems the teaching field attracted many sadists, I wonder if they were just genuine psychos or if the profession was a dumping ground for those in the family who weren't "called' to priesthood.
Where I went to secondary school it seemed the most abusive teachers were those in the practical/manly subjects like woodwork, technical drawing etc
I'm surprised there hasn't been more sexual abuse stories towards teachers.

The thing is it wasn't just teachers - anywhere where there was an abuse of power- teachers, priests, social workers, guards there was a tendency for abuse whether that was beating the sh1te of small children or corruption - it was part and parcel of every day life unfortunately.

road_high

road_high wrote: »

Yea but it was very subtle at times. “Light” hitting like stuff with pens flicking ears and knuckles. It definitely happened with regularity- I could name the kids in my class it happened to as they stood beside her desk. It’s clear as day to me. Remember a few times she went too far and she was all remorseful and praising of them after. I’d say she was selective perhaps in what kids she hit as the parents may not have been like my ma would be and came in. This was a school on a small rural town. Even then they still had some authority and possibly the backing of the local bollocks RC priest who was school patron

Well I know the post could be bad in the 1980's but even a small rural town should have got the memo by 1990 :P

Maybe in her mind this wasn't "corporal punishment" because she didn't use a leather or a cane/metre stick- sounds like she was a right b1tch, up her own backside, total power in a small rural school.

Ipso

gozunda wrote: »

The thing is it wasn't just teachers - anywhere where there was an abuse of power- teachers, priests, social workers, guards there was a tendency for abuse whether that was beating the sh1te of small children or corruption - it was part and parcel of every day life unfortunately.

Yeah, sometimes it seems to me like it was a class system. The sh!t munchers just knew their place.

wyf437gn6btzue

Didn't go to school anywhere near when corporal punishment was used but still there was teachers who were cruel owl cnuts.

One teacher when I was in 1st class had a problem with me in particular going toilet. It was an hour before finish one day and she was reading to the class, I had my hand raised for maybe 10-15 minutes and was ignored till I wet myself. When I went home and my mother found out she was livid.

The same in secondary school, a few particular teachers had the art of psychological abuse down to a tea and made little of many of the venerable characters

Your Face

TCM wrote: »

No pupil deserved to be beaten by a teacher.

He deserved it.

road_high

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well I know the post could be bad in the 1980's but even a small rural town should have got the memo by 1990 :P

Maybe in her mind this wasn't "corporal punishment" because she didn't use a leather or a cane/metre stick- sounds like she was a right b1tch, up her own backside, total power in a small rural school.

Our school was actually pretty big by small town standards, think there was nearly 200 kids in it.
She was a total skitzo. Could be so nice one part of the day, all affectionate. The next a total nutcase. She was by the far worst I ever had punishment wise.
For all that she was a good teacher in the sense I learned an awful lot with her.

Galwayguy35

Can remember two occasions where lads in my class got hit and had a black eye after, this was the late 80s when it wasn't supposed to happen, real hard men hitting young kids.

Reading the thread here is seems like it was happening everywhere.

It stopped after Inter Cert though when the lads in the class got bigger and would have been able to give one back.

road_high

Hunter Warm Lasso wrote: »

Didn't go to school anywhere near when corporal punishment was used but still there was teachers who were cruel owl cnuts.

One teacher when I was in 1st class had a problem with me in particular going toilet. It was an hour before finish one day and she was reading to the class, I had my hand raised for maybe 10-15 minutes and was ignored till I wet myself. When I went home and my mother found out she was livid.

The same in secondary school, a few particular teachers had the art of psychological abuse down to a tea and made little of many of the venerable characters

Total torture was common alright! No wonder so many of us still have “issues”! Catholic punishment mindset hangover

EdgeCase

I'm shocked it's still permitted in quite a large % of US states (mostly southern ones).

tayto lover

I started Primary school in 1958 and finished in 1966. It was very bad then.
The reason nobody complained was because our parents were basically uneducated and hadn’t the words or the ability to take on educated people.

Anyway authority always backed authority and probably still does.

Church on Tuesday

Absolutely shocking reading some of these accounts and abuse full stop.

A real blackmark on the history of education.

trellheim

After being in a CBS for primary and most of secondary in the 70s and 80s I didnt mind corporal punishment. What I hated was psycho teachers who made kids life hell

the three worst teachers were all three lay 2xmale 1 female for this (what I only came many years later to see as mental abuse that was rarely physical/corporal. ) . the brothers were harsh but very fair in my experience , you knew why you were getting the stick or the leather. and it kept us in line which taught me a long life lesson.

Church on Tuesday

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Absolutely shocking reading some of these accounts and abuse full stop.

A real blackmark on the history of education.

Here's something for you- One day, our primary school headmaster leathered close to 30 pupils for embarrassing him in front of parents on a parents day. Two nice slaps, one on each hand. The line of pupils to the headmasters office was out the front door- complete bastard nazi - single, paranoid and power crazy. I hope he died a horrible death-alone.

EdgeCase

What lesson though?

I mean, the only lesson I can see is that someone would learn that instead of doing something because it's a good thing, beneficial or positive, they did things because they were afraid that otherwise they'd be beaten up with a big stick.

It doesn't seem like a great lesson or way of motivating people.

Also someone who has to make threats to get their way has no respect. They just instil fear.
Once the fear is gone, they crumble into irrelevance. They have no power. No influence. Just a big stick.

There's a huge difference between that and someone who you actually respect, admire and take seriously.

anheneti

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Guess i wouldn't have made it too far in old Ireland. Im just not the type to sit idle and let anyone beat me

The abuse is probably why a lot of Irish jumped ship to America

That’s well and good until an 8 year old gets the **** kicked out of him because of something his father/brother/cousin said to him in a pub

EdgeCase

EdgeCase wrote: »

What lesson though?

I mean, the only lesson I can see is that someone would learn that instead of doing something because it's a good thing, beneficial or positive, they did things because they were afraid that otherwise they'd be beaten up with a big stick.

It doesn't seem like a great lesson or way of motivating people.

Oh it was certainly discipline by fear, there's no doubt about that. None of this trying to understand the child, reason, explain bollix that happens today
(sarcasm)

Oh no, it was fear. Looking back, many i (but not all) teachers and headmasters/mistresses just didn't have the capacity, the skills and the emotional intelligence that's required for teaching today, to deal with children any other way. That's why I'd say a lot of teachers struggled post 1982 as they lost a lot of power then and didn't have any other skills to fall back on.

I saw more than one teacher out on stress leave after nervous breakdowns.

Sorry about that

I was never hit, but have the most vivid memory of a nun I had in junior infants. My handwriting was bad, and she was rubbing out a mistake I’d made, and the shavings of the rubber got on her skirt. She scolded me and made me brush off them off her skirt with my hands. I obviously didn’t get how weird this was, but still remember it like it was yesterday. I was four.

All the stories on this thread about violent educators have one common denominator; the church. The insane abuse of power is still mind blowing.

Sorry about that

Sorry about that wrote: »

All the stories on this thread about violent educators have one common denominator; the church. The insane abuse of power is still mind blowing.

There's a fair amount of lay teachers mentioned on this thread. All of my examples are lay teachers, as are many others.

orourkeda1977

It boggles my mind when I think just how backward that Ireland was. A lot of this was in the very recent past.

Mam of 4

I can't be the only one feeling sick reading all the accounts of abuse , and that's what it was, against children by glorified Sadists who relished having such power to do as they did and get away with it .
I know some of them were held accountable in later years , but most weren't .
Yes , I'm of that era where it was the "norm" , I don't think anyone in my family didn't suffer at their hands , one way or another .

Thank fcuk times have changed .

Sorry about that

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a fair amount of lay teachers mentioned on this thread. All of my examples are lay teachers, as are many others.

I take the point, but they probably taught in catholic schools for the most part, following the culture set by the brothers/sisters.

Ubbquittious

Am I losing my mind or are there posts going missing from this thread?

Church on Tuesday

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Absolutely shocking reading some of these accounts and abuse full stop.

.

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

It boggles my mind when I think just how backward that Ireland was. .

It's funny, having been there, done that and bought the t-shirt on more than a few occasions, standard corporal punishment wasn't actually all that bad if dished out fairly and measuredly, which in my experience, it was, up to 1982, when it stopped.

This is not to be confused by vicious beatings and physical violence and abuse against kids by some bastard teachers/priests/nuns etc- something totally different altogether.

I confess, having read the entire thread from the start, I'm a bit surprised, maybe even bemused, by how people's minds are "boggled" or "shocked" by standard corporal punishment stories- it didn't have a lasting effect on me at least, nor on my school friends. But then again, our school wasn't known for it's over-use of violence which obviously, was a good thing- but the did administer corporal punishment.

Ubbquittious

Well f*ck me pink there is no doubt about it.

As if it isn't infuriating enough to be beaten around the head by someone who's being paid to educate you some take-no-risk admin is after quietly binning my post where I named the individual who done it.

Well done Boards. Playing straight into the hands of these low lifes and the establishment behind them.

Ubbquittious

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Well f*ck me pink there is no doubt about it.

As if it isn't infuriating enough to be beaten around the head by someone who's being paid to educate you some take-no-risk admin is after quietly binning my post where I named the individual who done it.

Well done Boards. Playing straight into the hands of these low lifes and the establishment behind them.

In fairness you can't go around alleging assault and naming people on boards.ie. We could all list off past teachers but back then, it wasn't illegal to administer corporal punishment. You're on dodgy ground naming people.

jmreire

To put it in context, you have to remember that all those teachers, nuns etc were treated the same (or maybe even worse ) in their own day..and trace it backwards from that. So for them to behave as they did, was nothing new. To add to the mix, you had religious orders recruiting kids as young as 12 year's of age...so as adults, its not surprising that some ( not all though ) turned out as they did. Its easy known that there was not any compo culture in those days... or we would have all left school with nice bank account. In my day,one particular brother had broken the glass in every picture that hung on the walls.. he did this by lifting the unlucky ( on the day) pupil up by the ears, and banging his head off the glass. The broken glass was never replaced, so he just banged your head off the picture then, or the wall beside it. The classrooms in the school were separated by folding glass partitions, so each teacher knew what was happening in the other class rooms, but they never interfered, even the "Good" ones ( and we had a few of these too, but in the minority.) I remember one day when we were playing in the yard during a break, an irate Father, came into the yard, caught a Brother by the throat and pinned him against the wall, He gave the Brother a firm warning that the next time he laid a hand on his child, he would be back, and next time he would beat him so badly his own mother would not recognize him. For all his classroom toughness against kids, he was a coward ( as all bullies are ) But he never even attempted to teach that child again....just ignored him... but never once hit him again. One thing we all learned though, was that there was a price to be paid if you broke the rules ( and sometimes even if you did not...your Family's standing in the community influenced a teacher's behavior towards you ) So when you did leave school, you always knew that there were boundaries, and you had to respect them. It's something that seems to be lacking nowadays.

Grab All Association

Krusty The Clown wrote:

Hey! Settle down, boys and girls.
Or Krusty will bring out his friend Corporal Punishment again.

The Simpsons has really ruined us taking things seriously. In almost every subject on here there’s a Simpsons reference.

Ubbquittious

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness you can't go around alleging assault and naming people on boards.ie. We could all list off past teachers but back then, it wasn't illegal to administer corporal punishment. You're on dodgy ground naming people.

Back in my day it was in fact illegal. If push came to shove I'd stick to my word in front of any judge. Nothing dodgy about it either as that teacher did get into trouble over this kind of thing before

Sorry about that

Deleted User wrote: »

It's funny, having been there, done that and bought the t-shirt on more than a few occasions, standard corporal punishment wasn't actually all that bad if dished out fairly and measuredly, which in my experience, it was, up to 1982, when it stopped.

This is not to be confused by vicious beatings and physical violence and abuse against kids by some bastard teachers/priests/nuns etc- something totally different altogether.

I confess, having read the entire thread from the start, I'm a bit surprised, maybe even bemused, by how people's minds are "boggled" or "shocked" by standard corporal punishment stories- it didn't have a lasting effect on me at least, nor on my school friends. But then again, our school wasn't known for it's over-use of violence which obviously, was a good thing- but the did administer corporal punishment.

I would argue that corporal punishment did have a lasting effect on you, because you are not shocked by it’s use

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

To put it in context, you have to remember that all those teachers, nuns etc were treated the same (or maybe even worse ) in their own day..and trace it backwards from that. So for them to behave as they did, was nothing new. To add to the mix, you had religious orders recruiting kids as young as 12 year's of age...so as adults, its not surprising that some ( not all though ) turned out as they did. Its easy known that there was not any compo culture in those days... or we would have all left school with nice bank account. In my day,one particular brother had broken the glass in every picture that hung on the walls.. he did this by lifting the unlucky ( on the day) pupil up by the ears, and banging his head off the glass. The broken glass was never replaced, so he just banged your head off the picture then, or the wall beside it. The classrooms in the school were separated by folding glass partitions, so each teacher knew what was happening in the other class rooms, but they never interfered, even the "Good" ones ( and we had a few of these too, but in the minority.) I remember one day when we were playing in the yard during a break, an irate Father, came into the yard, caught a Brother by the throat and pinned him against the wall, He gave the Brother a firm warning that the next time he laid a hand on his child, he would be back, and next time he would beat him so badly his own mother would not recognize him. For all his classroom toughness against kids, he was a coward ( as all bullies are ) But he never even attempted to teach that child again....just ignored him... but never once hit him again. One thing we all learned though, was that there was a price to be paid if you broke the rules ( and sometimes even if you did not...your Family's standing in the community influenced a teacher's behavior towards you ) So when you did leave school, you always knew that there were boundaries, and you had to respect them. It's something that seems to be lacking nowadays.

The story you mention there was not corporal punishment though, that was child abuse. Corporal punishment was about administering a measured slap with a cane, leather, stick etc for wrong doing. Not beating 40 shades of blue out of someone or embedding broken glass in their head. That was never acceptable, whether before or after 1982.

Franz Von Peppercorn

The modern age drugs children who misbehave. Who knows what the future will think of that.

Sorry about that

Sorry about that wrote: »

I would argue that corporal punishment did have a lasting effect on you, because you are not shocked by it’s use

Have a read of my definition of corporal punishment above please- it's a far cry from some stories here which are about violent physical abuse of kids- something totally different. People are confusing the two- they are worlds apart.

mfceiling

My mates school in Tyrone in the late 80's had some psycho teachers. Him and his school pals would be divils for "acting the maggot"...Nothing major just harmless messing.
One of the teachers used to throw digs at them in class...Proper punches to the arms, back or stomach. 2 of the lads in the class were hotheads and could take care of themselves. Your man is ranting one day and the pair of lads are talking away down the back. Down he comes and clatters the first lad with a slap, and quick as a flash the other lad boxes him square on the jaw!! (he was a farmers son and was hard as nails)...The other lad had come to his senses and he gets tore in as well. My mate said it ended up a full on digging match in the classroom!!
There were other occasions he told me where he got a dig but was afraid of the consequences if he struck back. Teachers held a lot of power back then.

EdgeCase

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The story you mention there was not corporal punishment though, that was child abuse. Corporal punishment was about administering a measured slap with a cane, leather, stick etc for wrong doing. Not beating 40 shades of blue out of someone or embedding broken glass in their head. That was never acceptable, whether before or after 1982.

Given the frequency of accounts and the total lack of cases taken against teachers, schools and institutions at that time, the sad reality of it is that is must have been acceptable. Otherwise these stories would be rare and worryingly they're not. It seems like it was just tolerated.

Sorry about that

Deleted User wrote: »

Have a read of my definition of corporal punishment above please- it's a far cry from some stories here which are about violent physical abuse of kids- something totally different. People are confusing the two- they are worlds apart.

Corporal punishment is the physical punishment of people, by hitting them. This is not civilised behaviour. An adult wouldn’t tolerate his/her boss correcting poor performance in this way, it’s even more unacceptable to inflict it on a child.

EdgeCase

EdgeCase wrote: »

Given the frequency of accounts and the total lack of cases taken against teachers, schools and institutions at that time, the sad reality of it is that is must have been acceptable. Otherwise these stories would be rare.

Oh there's no doubt in my mind that the acceptability of corporal punishment was a key factor in teachers taking advantage and displaying physically abusive behaviour towards school children that went way beyond any guidelines laid down by the department of education at the time- aka physical abuse.

To what degree this behaviour was tolerated, depended on the school in my experience. In my school, while corporal punishment was administered, violent physical abuse wasn't.

Plumbthedepths

Had the misfortune of being taught ( if that's what it could be called) by a bunch of evil 'cnuts' in black. I was left handed and that was a big ' no' for the 'good' sisters. Beaten senseless every day for 2 months, crying uncontrollablely every morning begging to stay home as a 5 year old in the late 70's until my father decided that enough was enough. He threatened to leave his size 10 army boot in a place that the nun would find hard to remove.
Meet another few sadistic b*stards both male and female in the primary system. The crap stopped at secondary, I was 6 ft in secondary and willing to fight back. Met a few of those cnuts down through the years after school, told one I would happily do time if I ever heard he raised his hand to a child again.

Sorry about that

Sorry about that wrote: »

Corporal punishment is the physical punishment of people, by hitting them. This is not civilised behaviour. An adult wouldn’t tolerate his/her boss correcting poor performance in this way, it’s even more unacceptable to inflict it on a child.

Oh blady blah- spare me the lecture please- I never said it was acceptable- but it was in place in schools up to 1982 and if administered fairly and in a measured way, didn't create long lasting negative impacts on pupils.

sanjose1

Violence always leaves a scar you moron

Plumbthedepths

Deleted User wrote:

I'm in disbelief that hitting kids went on after 1982.

I'm 47 I was in NS until '84. I can assure you it continued after '82. As a class we turned on a teacher who beat a lad unconscious. The teacher was bundled out of the classroom to the safety of a the staff room by the principal. He signed himself into a mental hospital to escape justice. The year was '83.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm 47 I was in NS until '84. I can assure you it continued after '82. As a class we turned on a teacher who beat a lad unconscious. The teacher was bundled out of the classroom to the safety of a the staff room by the principal. He signed himself into a mental hospital to escape justice. The year was '83.

Continued, but not without consequences for the teacher I'm glad to see.

Plumbthedepths

Deleted User wrote:

Continued, but not without consequences for the teacher I'm glad to see.

What consequences? he signed himself into a mental hospital for a few weeks to escape justice. He was never sacked.The boy in question suffered a concussion and dropped out of school a couple of years later.

Sardonicat

Sorry about that wrote: »

All the stories on this thread about violent educators have one common denominator; the church. The insane abuse of power is still mind blowing.

Nope. I experienced some awful physical and worse psychological abuse at a primary school in England in the 70s. Boys got caned, girls got hit with a plimsoll. Little boys got their heads violently knocked together. All par for the course in those days.

What was different was the manner in which it was dealt out. Over there is seemed very structured and deliberate; eg. "Sardonicat, for talking in class you will go to headmaster's office and get slapped at half two" Whereas as here you'd feel a clatter across your ear and then be told "Stop talking!" The psychological abuse and power trips were just the same though.

Allinall

sanjose1 wrote: »

Violence always leaves a scar you moron

So does online abuse.

blackcard

Getting the leather on both hands for not knowing the third person pluperfect of an irregular latin verb. One lad said one day to the teacher that his father told him he didn't have to accept punishment. Teacher let him off but tucked in to the rest of us to make up for this. That was just the way it was

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

The story you mention there was not corporal punishment though, that was child abuse. Corporal punishment was about administering a measured slap with a cane, leather, stick etc for wrong doing. Not beating 40 shades of blue out of someone or embedding broken glass in their head. That was never acceptable, whether before or after 1982.

Yes Plenty.. I agree completely, that what it was "Child Abuse" !!! But that expression did not exist during my school days. It was accepted behavior ( except by the one father I mentioned, who in his own school days was treated the very same way, and that's why he reacted as he did. I was standing right beside him when he caught the Brother by the throat, and his very word's were Quote " I remember ye Fking Barstewards beating me, and I an warning you now, if he ever comes home again and tells me that you have hit him, I will come back here, and when I am finished with you, your own mother will not be able to recognize you" Unquote. The stick and leather were in every day use, and dusters ( wooden blocks with soft fabric on one side used to clean the chalk off the black board, and as a missile against pupils ) I remember a kid getting hit on the ear with this "flying brick" one day... he spent the rest of the lesson holding his head in his hand's and sobbing softly. His ear was damaged as a result. but nothing was ever done about it, nothing was ever done about ANY of these abuses. A lot of kids at that time left school at 14 years of age ( was the legal age ) and more changed from religious taught
schools to the Technical School ( as they were then called ) This abuse would have been the main reason that these pupils left. I often wonder what would have been the outcome for a lot of "Leavers" had they stayed on through secondary education, and maybe even further?

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

What consequences? he signed himself into a mental hospital for a few weeks to escape justice. He was never sacked.The boy in question suffered a concussion and dropped out of school a couple of years later.

I don't see how signing into a mental hospital allowed him escape justice but not surprised considering the year it was.

Again that's not corporal punishment, it's bordering on attempted murder.

road_high

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

It boggles my mind when I think just how backward that Ireland was. A lot of this was in the very recent past.

Twenty years ago or so! The new generation of teachers have transformed the thing far as I can see. Way more child centered and less of the fear we endured.

Plumbthedepths

Deleted User wrote:

Again that's not corporal punishment, it's bordering on attempted murder.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? At the time it was accepted as punishment. I have seen idiots justify this b*ll**** by saying "I got a few slaps, never did me any harm".