Memories of corporal punishment

4ensic15

judeboy101 wrote: »

Standing in the corner when bold, and getting a choice of 10 slaps with the soft ruler or 1 with the steel tipped one. Ironically there was no adhd, asd or Add back then, homework always done, no one late for school and classes quiet as mouses. Best days of my life.

Pity you didn't learn anything though.

whisky_galore

JupiterKid wrote: »

When Ireland started to modernise and develop in the 1960s and 1970s there was the opportunity to wrest control of health and education from the church but it was not taken due to political cowardice.

Or rather, the vast majority of people saw nothing wrong with the status quo. The place was still fiercely Catholic into the 1980s and beyond until the cracks in the façade couldn't be ignored anymore.

realitykeeper

whisky_galore wrote: »

Or rather, the vast majority of people saw nothing wrong with the status quo. The place was still fiercely Catholic into the 1980s and beyond until the cracks in the façade couldn't be ignored anymore.

I remain staunchly Catholic and even if I had best molested by a Priest or beaten to pulp by a brother, I would still be staunchly Catholic but thats just me.

Lay teachers were the most violent in my experience but I think it is really important for the victims of corporal punishment to forgive for their own sake.

JupiterKid

realitykeeper wrote: »

whisky_galore wrote: »

Or rather, the vast majority of people saw nothing wrong with the status quo. The place was still fiercely Catholic into the 1980s and beyond until the cracks in the façade couldn't be ignored anymore.

I remain staunchly Catholic and even if I had best molested by a Priest or beaten to pulp by a brother, I would still be staunchly Catholic but thats just me.

Lay teachers were the most violent in my experience but I think it is really important for the victims of corporal punishment to forgive for their own sake.

Easy to opine if you thought the odd belt of the leather strap, cutting comment or clatter did you little harm, but I can see how some who who had horrendous physical or sexual abuse meted out to them by teachers and persons in authority cannot forgive their abusers for what they did.

road_high

realitykeeper wrote: »

I remain staunchly Catholic and even if I had best molested by a Priest or beaten to pulp by a brother, I would still be staunchly Catholic but thats just me.

Lay teachers were the most violent in my experience but I think it is really important for the victims of corporal punishment to forgive for their own sake.

I’d say you would alright! If a priest was abusing you against your will behind the bloody altar. Get fcukin real world ya

lalababa

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Were you teenagers or primary? I can tell you now that if a teacher even tried to raise a hand to us in the late 80s' after the ban came in, the whole class would have turned on them- you could see around 83, 84, some "nearly did" but thought twice about it- it would have meant their job if they hit us and they knew that and we all knew that. I'm in disbelief that hitting kids went on after 1982.
I never experienced it. Even teachers who would be prone to throwing chalk sticks at people who were cheeky stopped soon after- the risk was just too much.

Twas alive and well in my days to '94

youcantakethat

Corporal punishment was alive and well in my school in my day, I remember getting whacked on the head by the teacher for something during Irish class.

sligojoek

sligojoek wrote: »

I did primary school in Nenagh CBS in the 70s. I'd be here all night telling stories if I had the time. One of the worst things I saw was this:

I was in 5th class when we got a new headmaster, as if the last cunt wasn't bad enough. He was a brutal bastard . If you saw him running from the pre-fab to the main building some poor fucker was gonna get it bad. The heavy leather strap was his weapon of choice. Near the end of term 2 of the 6th class lads broke into the school one night and stole all the leathers from the classrooms. Thanks to some lick holes the two culprits were identified and the whole school was brought out to the playground and made stand around in a circle. C***** the headmaster sent another brother into his office for two new leathers. The two boys were whacked on the arse and legs from one end of the playground to the other.

.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gary+creevey+principal&rlz=1C1CHBF_enIE734IE734&oq=gary+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39j0l4.6060j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Same guy.

sligojoek

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/three-months-jail-for-assault-1.1254336

4ensic15

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

Plumbthedepths

4ensic15 wrote:

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

Says alot about a person when they can try and justify to the physical abuse of a child.

.......

4ensic15 wrote: »

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

How is life under the bridge?

doolox

In an ideal world it should never be used, especially by strangers and people bigger than the victim.

Only in cases of safety being at risk, where someone is about to assault someone else, such as dealt with by bouncers and riot police and prison staff, should physical force be used to contain or prevent further danger.

I would draw the line at parents who at times have to prevent a child running into grave and immediate danger such as wandering onto a road or putting their hand on a hot stovetop etc.

All that corporal punishment does is teach people the erroneous lesson that might is right and the big guy always wins by using force, not ideal lessons to be teaching our young people.

Bullying and physical force methods of interaction which began in our schools have often been imported into the workplace in adult lives and peoples later lives, much to the detriment of the bullied.

EdgeCase

The law doesn't draw any lines. It's no longer a matter of opinion. Ireland has an outright ban in corporal punishment at school or at home. If you hit a kid for any reason, including if you're their parent, you can potentially be charged with assault.

whisky_galore

realitykeeper wrote: »

I remain staunchly Catholic and even if I had best molested by a Priest or beaten to pulp by a brother, I would still be staunchly Catholic but thats just me.

Lay teachers were the most violent in my experience but I think it is really important for the victims of corporal punishment to forgive for their own sake.

Whatever. You're a known troll on these boards so I'll take that post with a lorry load of salt.

doolox

...I've seen parents hitting kids briefly for things like trying to wander out onto a busy road or kids going near strange dogs or into other areas of immediate danger where a swift call to attention was needed. Not an ideal situation and the parent should have been paying attention to their child intentions and actions at all times but this is not a perfect world and people do not possess perfect attention to their tasks at all times.

I have seen security and retail staff call out people for hitting their children in public, ranging from a brief warning to desist all the way up to guards been called and the parent and child taken off to a non public area of the supermarket, presumably to be warned by the police on their actions or some other course of action.

EdgeCase

There are far better ways of getting immediate attention, such as physically moving someone away from danger.

All of this discussions were had. All of them lead to allowing scope for physical abuse.

Bear in mind if you go back a bit more than a century it was seen as reasonable to physically chastise workers in factories, flog soldiers etc and similar arguments were made by foremen and commanders about getting people's attention and motivation.

If your boss have you a clatter to get your attention, I'm pretty sure you'd be consulting the Gardai and probably a solicitor.

Domestic violence was also seen as somehow normal as were many other things we'd consider totally unacceptable now.

Society moved on and it's no longer acceptable. There isn't a legal position where corporal punishment is acceptable in certain scenarios or between certain people. It's legally considered to be assault and any defenses were removed.

realitykeeper

road_high wrote: »

I’d say you would alright! If a priest was abusing you against your will behind the bloody altar. Get fcukin real world ya

JupiterKid wrote: »

Easy to opine if you thought the odd belt of the leather strap, cutting comment or clatter did you little harm, but I can see how some who who had horrendous physical or sexual abuse meted out to them by teachers and persons in authority cannot forgive their abusers for what they did.

Forgiveness is in my nature and I thank God for that.

road_high

realitykeeper wrote: »

Forgiveness is in my nature and I thank God for that.

It’s easy preach forgiveness if you haven’t gone through the horrors of physical and sexual abuse yourself.

is_that_so

road_high wrote: »

It’s easy preach forgiveness if you haven’t gone through the horrors of physical and sexual abuse yourself.

Not always true. As with all traumas in our lives we need to move to a place of acceptance for good mental well-being. That can include forgiveness.

road_high

is_that_so wrote: »

Not always true. As with all traumas in our lives we need to move to a place of acceptance for good mental well-being. That can include forgiveness.

Yes but they’re very much an individual thing. Acceptance and accepting you weren’t to blame for sure, forgiveness is a while other thing

realitykeeper

road_high wrote: »

It’s easy preach forgiveness if you haven’t gone through the horrors of physical and sexual abuse yourself.

Yet people who have suffered far worse such as survivors of genocide manage to forgive. The simple fact is forgiveness comes down to a decision and a very sensible and pragmatic one at that.

road_high

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes this indeed true - Ireland effectively outsourced education, social services and healthcare to the religious at the time of the foundation of the State but the religious abused their power immensely in those spheres - as all the enquiries of the past 20 years have proven - and held onto these services for far longer than they should have.

When Ireland started to modernise and develop in the 1960s and 1970s there was the opportunity to wrest control of health and education from the church but it was not taken due to political cowardice.

Yes but the Irish state was still funding them- the RCC are insidiously clever and like to infiltrate all influential aspects of society- Education and Healthcare being key targets. At least when Ireland part of the UK some of the worst excesses of their dogma was kept in check. From the 1920s to 1980s they had a free reign, more or less. They weren't providing "free" education- in fact they opposed its introduction.
Still a lot of work to be done, our state schools should all be non religious in my opinion- thereafter if people want religious interference then let them have that option.

road_high

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yet people who have suffered far worse such as survivors of genocide manage to forgive. The simple fact is forgiveness comes down to a decision and a very sensible and pragmatic one at that.

You can't compare- it's different for everyone. And i doubt all genocide survivors have managed to forgive.

Henry Ford III

I went to a Jesuit Grammar School in the UK - the weapon of choice there was a "ferula" - whalebone wrapped on leather.

I was a good hearted messer at that age so was a regular enough customer.

6 on the hands could be really painful though.

SusieBlue

Crock Rock wrote: »

I'm 28 myself but my dad is 60. His teachers are cruel and sadistic cunts.

The teachers knew who did and who didn't have a father figure and would bully the boys accordingly. My dad's dad died quite young. The teacher would often open your lunch and mock you for what you had, one teacher would take your milk and put it on the radiator to deliberately spoil it.

One of the teachers would mercilessly beat the shit out of you until he was doubled over with an asthma attack. He would also molest the boys and find the hottest radiator in the room and push your bare leg down to burn you until the boys cried in agony.

One teacher would use the boys as a duster and thrown them on the ground after wards.

One teacher used to mock a nervous twitch my dad had by blinking into his face and mocking him.

The teachers were evil bastards, if there is a hell, that is where they belong.

This happened my mam too.
She was the youngest of 8 kids and her dad died when she was a baby.

One winter when she was about 7, my grandmother saved up long and hard to buy all the children new coats.
Not an easy task for a young widow in that era.

When my mam came into school wearing it, the teacher dragged her up to the top of the class to explain how a b*stard like her was wearing such a lovely coat.
She kept saying she didn't know how my grandmother bought the coats, that she must have saved up, but that was the wrong answer, and for each wrong answer, she got a slap across the face.

Eventually, after enduring quite a severe beating, the teacher came to the conclusion that my Nana had either stolen the coats, or else was a prostitute.
She said this in front of the whole class.
She wouldn't let my mam wear the jacket during break time, it was confiscated. So she had to go outside in the freezing cold.

Another time she had a kidney infection, but as there was no one at home to mind her, she had to go to school.
My Nana sent in a note to the teacher to let her know she'd need more frequent bathroom breaks.
The teacher pretty much ignored the note, wouldn't let her go to the bathroom, and my mam ended up wetting herself while sitting at her desk.

The teacher screamed the place down, and pinched her thighs so hard with her long nails my mams legs were bleeding. Then she made her sit there for the whole day in her wet clothes, referring to her only as a "dirty girl".

How anyone could inflict such cruelty and humiliation on a child beggars belief. No wonder we have so many adults with mental health issues.

razorblunt

doolox wrote: »

...I've seen parents hitting kids briefly for things like trying to wander out onto a busy road or kids going near strange dogs or into other areas of immediate danger where a swift call to attention was needed. Not an ideal situation and the parent should have been paying attention to their child intentions and actions at all times but this is not a perfect world and people do not possess perfect attention to their tasks at all times.

I have seen security and retail staff call out people for hitting their children in public, ranging from a brief warning to desist all the way up to guards been called and the parent and child taken off to a non public area of the supermarket, presumably to be warned by the police on their actions or some other course of action.

I think I've posted this before, but when I worked in retail I remember seeing a Father give his child ~7 years old an almighty smack across the face. He absolutely leathered, the kid was tiny and the dad was a stocky ol' fella so no doubt had some strength behind him. It was quiet enough in the shop and everyone stood and stared in shock as the kids face started to break out in red marks from the outline of the hand. The kid didn't even cry, he just looked hollow from it.
I had to really resist going for the Father but in the end I told the security guard what happened and we asked the Father to leave the store, his wife and kids were still welcome but he wasnt.

Still can't shake the incident, the noise, the kids reaction, his face. What a cúnt that Father was.

EdgeCase

razorblunt wrote: »

I think I've posted this before, but when I worked in retail I remember seeing a Father give his child ~7 years old an almighty smack across the face. He absolutely leathered, the kid was tiny and the dad was a stocky ol' fella so no doubt had some strength behind him. It was quiet enough in the shop and everyone stood and stared in shock as the kids face started to break out in red marks from the outline of the hand. The kid didn't even cry, he just looked hollow from it.
I had to really resist going for the Father but in the end I told the security guard what happened and we asked the Father to leave the store, his wife and kids were still welcome but he wasnt.

Still can't shake the incident, the noise, the kids reaction, his face. What a cúnt that Father was.

If that happened after 2015, it would be fairly clear assault and the Gardai should have been called by security.

Assault is assault. Nobody would put up with someone slapping anyone else, e.g. their wife/gf or a random member of the public across the face like that, so why should they tolerate a kid being treated in such a way.

road_high

SusieBlue wrote: »

This happened my mam too.
She was the youngest of 8 kids and her dad died when she was a baby.

One winter when she was about 7, my grandmother saved up long and hard to buy all the children new coats.
Not an easy task for a young widow in that era.

When my mam came into school wearing it, the teacher dragged her up to the top of the class to explain how a b*stard like her was wearing such a lovely coat.
She kept saying she didn't know how my grandmother bought the coats, that she must have saved up, but that was the wrong answer, and for each wrong answer, she got a slap across the face.

Eventually, after enduring quite a severe beating, the teacher came to the conclusion that my Nana had either stolen the coats, or else was a prostitute.
She said this in front of the whole class.
She wouldn't let my mam wear the jacket during break time, it was confiscated. So she had to go outside in the freezing cold.

Another time she had a kidney infection, but as there was no one at home to mind her, she had to go to school.
My Nana sent in a note to the teacher to let her know she'd need more frequent bathroom breaks.
The teacher pretty much ignored the note, wouldn't let her go to the bathroom, and my mam ended up wetting herself while sitting at her desk.

The teacher screamed the place down, and pinched her thighs so hard with her long nails my mams legs were bleeding. Then she made her sit there for the whole day in her wet clothes, referring to her only as a "dirty girl".

How anyone could inflict such cruelty and humiliation on a child beggars belief. No wonder we have so many adults with mental health issues.

Christ they were such vindicative, poisonous bitches.
They always picked on the vulnerable or who they perceived as “lower class” even if you ended up in dire straits through no fault of their own like your poor ma. My mother would have quite similar stories of what went on in school in the late 50s/60s but not as severe as yours. When did that go on for your mother?
Id never condone violence against a woman especially but she deserved a whack across the head for that.

EdgeCase

road_high wrote: »

Christ they were such vindicative, poisonous bitches.
They always picked on the vulnerable or who they perceived as “lower class” even if you ended up in dire straits through no fault of their own like your poor ma. My mother would have quite similar stories of what went on in school in the late 50s/60s but not as severe as yours. When did that go on for your mother?
Id never condone violence against a woman especially but she deserved a whack across the head for that.

My mom got similar (although without the beatings) because she was going to a school in a more 'upmarket' part of Dublin in the 1950s/1960s and they had previously lived in Ballyfermot. The nun used to ask her where she was from and she'd give an address in that area and she'd say : no you're not! We all know where you're from! That stopped very abruptly when my grandmother went down and took them to shreds over it. My granny was not one to be crossed and spoke in an Irish version of cut-glass RP when dealing with someone like that.

She was only about 6 or 7 at the time but it was really putting her in her place and making sure that all the other kids felt she was an outsider or not good enough for them.

She also had a situation in a school in a different part of Dublin in her teens where a nun asked her to go to the toilet and remove her bra because it made her look 'like a big mammy'. You'd have to wonder what the hell they were thinking! Really weird thing to say / do.

Mid-20th century Ireland was a very strange place.

BTW: Convents often operated a dowery system themselves. You had "Lady Nuns" and "Pot Scrubber Nuns" (terms used by someone I know who was familiar with them). If you were joining the convent and you paid a dowery, then you were treated well, had good lodgings, probably went to university, might have found yourself a job in upper administration of a school or hospital or so on. If you didn't bring a dowery, and you just joined up, you'd be given a different colour habit and expected to do all the menial work - digging spuds, cleaning, stoking fires, that sort of thing. They apparently didn't even eat at the same tables or even in the same dining rooms!

So there were incredibly stark class divides within the convent itself, so it's not surprising they came out into some nuns' interactions with the outside world.

doolox

I thought this stuff only happened in my home town. Sad to see narrow-minded sectoral warfare going on in other towns in Ireland where different groups are treated as outsiders by other groups and humiliation based on perceived class differences was the norm.

In many ways Nuns were more psychotic, vindictive and cruel to the girls in their charge than brothers were to the boys in their charge.

Two of my three sisters have ongoing mental health issues, largely made worse by their exposure to the tender mercies of religious teaching.

I have had my own negative experiences but thankfully nothing illegal by the standards of the time, no sexual or permanent bodily damage like what happened to some people in other schools. In spite of this I still have mental health issues and problems with interpersonal relationships etc, dealing with conflict and people in authority, when the past comes back to haunt me and tempers can flare.

I believe that a more humane and professionally well run educational experience would have helped me grow better as a person but this was not available to many at that time.

I was blessed with a mostly kind and in many ways understanding father who guided me through the pitfalls and snares of life and in later life I was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, the root cause of my anxieties, learning difficulties, and disciplinary problems and conflicts in school.

As an adult I have received counselling and coaching on a one to one basis on the ways to behave normally in polite society and avoid panics and outbursts, mostly brought on by little understood fears and angers in difficult conflict situations. In the past these outbursts and panics were met with severe punishments and assaults from people who did not know better at that time.

Today's educational workers and people in authority should now know better and not resort to physical force in their dealings with children.

JupiterKid

Yes the snobbery and elitism among the religious orders was very pervasive. I remember nuns and priests (not many as by the 1980s most teachers were lay) telling us in class how "fortunate" we were to have comfortable backgrounds but if we misbehaved in class or got behind in our schoolwork or failed an exam we would end up like the "scum, wasters and gurriers" (their actual words) of Ballymun or Gardiner Street.

Disgusting stuff. There were a couple of decent, kind nuns and priests but most were resentful, bitter and angry or cold at best. And they took it out on the children. The Catholic church has done incredible damage to Irish society.

EdgeCase

A medieval organisation structure that clung to medieval values. It's hardly surprising really.

road_high

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes the snobbery and elitism among the religious orders was very pervasive. I remember nuns and priests (not many as by the 1980s most teachers were lay) telling us in class how "fortunate" we were to have comfortable backgrounds but if we misbehaved in class or got behind in our schoolwork or failed an exam we would end up like the "scum, wasters and gurriers" (their actual words) of Ballymun or Gardiner Street.

Disgusting stuff. There were a couple of decent, kind nuns and priests but most were resentful, bitter and angry or cold at best. And they took it out on the children. The Catholic church has done incredible damage to Irish society.

The RCC were one of the main driving forces behind Ireland’s class system and reinforced it in the classroom whenever they could. And in a particularly vile and dehumanizing way. These were the same cretins that would be preaching the Ten Commandments having leathered working class kids just for being themselves. There was a particular harsh edge to Irish society up to the 1980s that accepted this as normal

Edgware

EdgeCase wrote: »

A medieval organisation structure that clung to medieval values. It's hardly surprising really.

You'll get over it.

EdgeCase

Personally, I don't actually believe that Irish society was ever lacking liberal leanings. I think it was severely oppressed by a very top down agent : the church and a cabal of establishment types who supported that kind of society.

As soon as the church's power melted in an implosion of self-induced scandal caused by its own corruption and abuse of power it was a drip, drip, drip ... then a tidal wave.

The oppresser was gone and I think we are seeing what kind of society we really are now. Things changed very rapidly and for the better. It's a far more human and humane society than it ever was. In the past it was a place led by preachy, holier than thou types who tried to knock every grain of humanity out of us. They saw piety and obedience as virtues and nothing else.

doolox

Unless you have actually experienced it then it is hard to comprehend the sheer enormity of the damage done by these inhuman creatures on the children in their "care".

As I said before in this thread, my abuse was mild compared to others but I resent the fact that I feel happy in a Stalinistic way when I hear of the death of one of these teachers and brothers and I wish in a perverse way that their demise was as painful and difficult as possible.

This dehumanises me and does me absolutely no good but it is the honest and gut feeling I get on hearing the news of their deaths.

I resent that a human agency can damage me in such a way.

razorblunt

EdgeCase wrote: »

If that happened after 2015, it would be fairly clear assault and the Gardai should have been called by security.

Assault is assault. Nobody would put up with someone slapping anyone else, e.g. their wife/gf or a random member of the public across the face like that, so why should they tolerate a kid being treated in such a way.

No, this would have been 2002/2003 I'd say.

EdgeCase

Unfortunately, it's what happens when any organisation, particularly one with an agenda to shape, change and mould a society is given almost absolute power.

It's an era that we need to understand and a mistake we need to guard against ever repeating!

screamer

I don’t think you can blame the RCC for all of it. There were genuine bastards who became teachers to be the bullies. People not suited to teaching, megalomaniacs even. I’d say there still are, just now, they’d get the **** beaten out of them for hitting the kids. It’s a stressful job for sure and it takes a certain kind of person to excel at, but I’d say many were drawn to it historically for the prestige, guaranteed job and long holidays.
All that being said the other night I dreamt about the nicest teacher I ever had, as a grown up I was telling her she was the reason I loved school and I’d miss her so much (she was retiring in my dream) and I woke up with tears down my face. So for sure, there were and still are wonderful, kind, capable and inspiring teachers. We need more of them.

Ubbquittious

The teacher I had would never hit a child when the priest was around and he called fairly regularly. I was always glad to see him arriving because he would keep the peace. The church never did anything bad to me. But I can still see that teachers face red with temper because I didnt attend that funeral

realitykeeper

JupiterKid wrote: »

Disgusting stuff. There were a couple of decent, kind nuns and priests but most were resentful, bitter and angry or cold at best. And they took it out on the children. The Catholic church has done incredible damage to Irish society.

That`s not how I see it. You see God said:

“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

So the brothers, priests, nuns etc who were cruel to children were doing so in a personal capacity and not on behalf of the Church that was founded by God.

EdgeCase

screamer wrote: »

I don’t think you can blame the RCC for all of it. There were genuine bastards who became teachers to be the bullies. People not suited to teaching, megalomaniacs even. I’d say there still are, just now, they’d get the **** beaten out of them for hitting the kids. It’s a stressful job for sure and it takes a certain kind of person to excel at, but I’d say many were drawn to it historically for the prestige, guaranteed job and long holidays.
All that being said the other night I dreamt about the nicest teacher I ever had, as a grown up I was telling her she was the reason I loved school and I’d miss her so much (she was retiring in my dream) and I woke up with tears down my face. So for sure, there were and still are wonderful, kind, capable and inspiring teachers. We need more of them.

I'd just point out that at primary level: ALL Irish teachers in catholic schools were trained by Catholic teacher training institutions. They did not got to mainstream universities. There's only been some very slight change to that in recent years, but the majority still are trained by modernised versions of those same institutions that always trained them and they are religious.

So, if you're looking at primary school they were trained, recruited and employed by the church. The state just paid the bills. Management of schools, including HR policies in those days were set by the religious institutions that owned the schools, not the state.

jmreire

4ensic15 wrote: »

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

Lucky you....And when I was in school....unless your Parents were well to do...all you had to do was to be there. It was solely at the whim of the teacher's.

road_high

EdgeCase wrote: »

I'd just point out that at primary level: ALL Irish teachers in catholic schools were trained by Catholic teacher training institutions. They did not got to mainstream universities. There's only been some very slight change to that in recent years, but the majority still are.

So, if you're looking at primary school they were trained, recruited and employed by the church. The state just paid the bills. Management of schools, including HR policies in those days were set by the religious institutions that owned the schools, not the state.

It is/was a pretty sweet deal for the Catholic cult- they take all the power and influence, the idiot tax payers pick up the tab!
My only concern of full separation is looking at say England or the US- state schools have been pretty poor haven’t they? Or at least they used to be.
Also wouldn’t want to see the minority COI schools suffer as their religion is generally important to people and as a small minority needs protection due to the small numbers.

road_high

Ubbquittious wrote: »

The teacher I had would never hit a child when the priest was around and he called fairly regularly. I was always glad to see him arriving because he would keep the peace. The church never did anything bad to me. But I can still see that teachers face red with temper because I didnt attend that funeral

She was a pure nut case. Irish schools seemed to be jam packed with them in retrospect.

LETHAL LADY

I had a teacher in first class who used a length of knotted ash branch, that had been stripped of its bark and varnished, to whack both the palms and the back of your hands (if you were really bad like) as corporal punishment.

Even though she was a sadistic bitch, I still preferred her to my third class teacher who was just into slapping you hard on the back of the head when she was in a bad mood. Which was most of the time of course. Bitch slapped my head repeatedly against a blackboard because she thought I'd written the wrong answer to a sum on the blackboard. I hadn't btw. I remember being on edge all the time in her class. Both were lay teachers.

Watched another classmate have her head bounced off a church pew by a psycho nun for giggling during confirmation mass practice. That was scary due to the obvious differences in size of both of them. The nun was a massive bitch and her ferocity was obvious to everyone there.

I've heard worse stories of course but they're the standout ones in my memory. Also, even though they can't slap you anymore there's some caustic feckers posing as teachers still working in schools.

doolox

My father used to recall with horror that a classmate of his in national school who was not the brightest once addressed a visiting parish priest as "Howya , Priest".

The poor lad was too simple to use the correct and more respectful form and was not trying to be cheeky.

The priest made little of the incident but the teacher waited until the priest had left the classroom and then trashed the hapless pupil for his perceived "cheekiness". In those days no allowance was made for people with low intelligence or intellectual disability.

What stuck in my fathers mind was the fact that the teacher was at pains to be all sweetness and light in the presence of the priest and waited in a premeditated and predatorial and two faced manner to wreak his revenge on the pupil.

Dad always hated hypocrisy and was ashamed of himself for not challenging the teacher on his behaviour. His words:"I couldn't do anything" and his sense of impotent fury stay with me to this day. It left him with an abiding suspicion and fear of the church and authority and a cynical view of political and religious power as operated in this country.

joeguevara

EdgeCase wrote: »

I'd just point out that at primary level: ALL Irish teachers in catholic schools were trained by Catholic teacher training institutions. They did not got to mainstream universities. There's only been some very slight change to that in recent years, but the majority still are trained by modernised versions of those same institutions that always trained them and they are religious.

So, if you're looking at primary school they were trained, recruited and employed by the church. The state just paid the bills. Management of schools, including HR policies in those days were set by the religious institutions that owned the schools, not the state.

But what’s your point. I went to 2 primary schools. First the convent until 1 st class. 2 lay teachers and a nun. Then the boys school all lay teachers but all trained by the RCC with a very strong RC ethos with regular visits by priest (once a week) and all taught hymns in Latin.

Now there was no corporal punishment or abuse in either school. Therefore it’s the perpetrator that is the issue not the training they received. Like they didn’t start in Mary I and go ‘now before we go into algebra teaching we need to show you how to leather a child to an inch of its life’.

LETHAL LADY

4ensic15 wrote: »

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

Nope, just frustrated people taking their anger out on children in my experience.