How clean is electric car?

The Enbalmer

Orebro wrote:

If there is a power failure you can't pump petrol or diesel either.

You can use jerry cans or a generator. Can you charge an EV from a generator?

Twenty Grand

The Enbalmer wrote: »

You can use jerry cans or a generator. Can you charge an EV from a generator?

Yep. Just plug it in.

Also, you could feasibly power your house from your car easily enough.

DarioFER

Electric cars are clean if they are sources through the renewable sources.

peposhi

The Enbalmer wrote: »

You can use jerry cans or a generator. Can you charge an EV from a generator?

Absolutely yes.

peposhi

Nobody is saying EVs are the cleanest nor most environmentally friendly. But they are certainly cleaner than any ICE.

This is an excellent article that summarises what’s actually happening:

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html#

There’re three parts and it’s a great read...

TheChizler

DarioFER wrote: »

Electric cars are clean if they are sources through the renewable sources.

Which is very easy to do if your supplier sources 100% of their energy from renewables.

Some people argue that you can't ensure that all your electrons come from those renewable sources as it's the one grid. Of course you can't but it's irrelevant, for every kWh you use an equivalent kWh has been generated renewably somewhere in the country.

And just to be totally pedantic, practically none of the electrons you use have ever been in any kind of generator, renewable or fossil powered. The circuit that powers your home is totally isolated from the power station by several transformers

jimgoose

TheChizler wrote: »

...And just to be totally pedantic, practically none of the electrons you use have ever been in any kind of generator, renewable or fossil powered. The circuit that powers your home is totally isolated from the power station by several transformers

And electrons, being of negative charge, actually "flow" the other way, that is they pop into the next adjacent "slot", they don't actually travel.

zilog_jones

The Enbalmer wrote: »

How many people live in apartments? How will they charge their cars? Who's going to pay to fit out all these chargepoints? Won't the huge increased demand send the price of electricity skyrocketing?

I live in an apartment, with an assigned space and adjacent storage unit - which conveniently has power that goes to my meter. I only have a PHEV right now so the standard 13A sockets do me fine, but if I change to a full EV I would need to investigate upgrading that to 32A - and I expect I would be the one paying for that. But the homeowners could just say no (I'm renting) - I think there needs to be legal framework for EV charging installation, especially for tenants. People with only on-street parking are in an even worse position.

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Another point is apart from who do you bring it to is HOW you get it there. When EVs breakdown you can't push them they have to be taken on a lowloader .

Who the hell pushes their car to a mechanic? lol
Many (most?) car insurers offer breakdown cover, so it's probably going on a flatbed anyway.
As others have said, there's less to go wrong, and they generally don't go wrong.

KCross

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Yes and when one of those parts fail on a conventional car you bring it to a mechanic..how easily fixable are the components of an electric car? Another point is apart from who do you bring it to is HOW you get it there. When EVs breakdown you can't push them they have to be taken on a lowloader .
You're going to find the issue of repairs an even bigger bugbear than the issue of charging,range and price.

The Enbalmer wrote: »

How many people live in apartments? How will they charge their cars? Who's going to pay to fit out all these chargepoints? Won't the huge increased demand send the price of electricity skyrocketing?

Its becoming clear to me that your biggest issue is fear of the unknown. Your boards name is apt.

Nothing wrong with asking the questions, some of which are valid questions, but they are not reasons to not proceed with EV adoption and the answer to those questions doesnt change that EV's are cleaner than ICE.

swarlb

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. And may I say thank you to the tax payers who gave me €10k subsidy for buying one? And the free home charger plus free installation of same. And the free public charging.

The shameful era of paying subsidies for people buying cancerous diesels has hopefully come to an end.

Just to be clear...My daily driver is a 20 year old Land Rover with a diesel engine (which I use to tow loads of turf, and broken down cars), I burn turf in a range which heats my house and cooks my food.
I think wind turbines are beautiful looking machines, akin to a modern version of steam powered engines, and if I could I'd love a smaller version in my back garden to 'power' the house. Our 'family' car is a 12 year old petrol. I'd love an electric powered car, as even one with a short range would suit our needs. I've been looking at cheap Leafs, there is one on Donedeal at the moment for close on 6k, so they are getting more affordable.
But on the EV's versus ICE debate lets' try a little test...
In the next post substitute an electric car and type in 'steam engine'
And substitute a normal diesel or petrol car with 'horse'
It's also about time we had some posts from the FLA on here, they've been suspiciously absent from the debate...

stimpson

For on street parking, this looks like the solution. I saw a Fully Charged vlog about it. You plug in your car, tell the app what lamp post you are at and it i initiates the charge over 4G and bills you accordingly. Cheap to install as you are adding a smart socket to existing electrical infrastructure. Would probably pay for itself very quickly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOi00EnNavA

Shefwedfan

stimpson wrote: »

For on street parking, this looks like the solution. I saw a Fully Charged vlog about it. You plug in your car, tell the app what lamp post you are at and it i initiates the charge over 4G and bills you accordingly. Cheap to install as you are adding a smart socket to existing electrical infrastructure. Would probably pay for itself very quickly.

These are already installed in Dublin.....just a few so far but it shows Ireland can do the exact same

ELM327

OSI wrote: »

I don't know what I'm talking about and I refuse to acknowledge that anybody else does. I demand you accept my poorly conceived notions and pat me on the back!

Seems that about 75% of boards posts are covered by the above.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Seems that about 75% of boards posts are covered by the above.

More along the 95% I would expect

Gumbo

The Enbalmer wrote: »

You can use jerry cans or a generator. Can you charge an EV from a generator?

How will you get the petrol or diesel into the jerry can?
I assume a power cut will come out of the blue, so the garages will be closed due to no power, and their pumps wont work without power...................

MrMusician18

swarlb wrote: »

Yes... and usually when you bring a 'broken' car to a 'mechanic' they'll most likely say... "not worth fixing, scrap 'er and buy a new one"
DPF issues, cars with high mileage burning oil, timing chain or belt failures... some of the 'minor' issues that effectively write off a car of a certain value/age. Generally speaking ICE cars pre 2008 are getting worthless by the day, primarily because of road tax.
And as for not being able to 'push' EV's.... 100% of the broken down ICE cars arrive to my workshop on the back of a transporter, in 40 odd years I've yet to see a customer push one from where it broke down.
Repairing EV's is a simple case of re educating yourself in the procedures required, nothing more.
I know mechanics who can't or wont fix certain brands of modern cars.
People need to get over this debate about EV's as opposed to anything else. They are simply an alternative. No one is forcing anyone to buy one.
And as for where do you bring them if they break down... I would have thought that was pretty obvious....
Nissan
Renault
Hyundai for example....
I'm fairly certain they have a dealer network.

It will be interesting to see how car manufacturers transition to the EV ecosystem. At present a lot of a cars value to a manufacturer is in the after sales service, and that is a major incentive for individuals to seek to operate brand dealerships.

You might have to see brands move to a direct sales model, with a small number of authorised dealerships, as service will me a much simpler affair.

Another aspect may also be forced obsolescence. You could argue we see it already in that cars start to have high maintenance bills as the miles clock up. The difference with the EV is that the clock can be set to run out, the day it leaves the factory. Cars can be designed with degrading battery chemistry, so that as they age, the less useful they become. This has happened before - the incandescent lightbulb was much longer lived in the early days until the industry decided that 10,000 hours was the reasonable lifespan to design for.

swarlb

kceire wrote: »

How will you get the petrol or diesel into the jerry can?
I assume a power cut will come out of the blue, so the garages will be closed due to no power, and their pumps wont work without power...................

Maybe we should just revert back to the horse... oh, wait, how will the horse get fed, if there is a power cut, the tractor won't be able to get fuel, to plough the field, to grow the grass, to feed the horse....

mischascha

peposhi wrote: »

Nobody is saying EVs are the cleanest nor most environmentally friendly. But they are certainly cleaner than any ICE.

This is an excellent article that summarises what’s actually happening:

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html#

There’re three parts and it’s a great read...

If the whole world would use geothermal power plants like Iceland maybe so, but meanwhile Iceland population is 40k smaller then China for that instance, so we all get that dirty stuff from the ground digging like European mole for those swanky EV's owners...:>

Silent Running

As for noise pollution?

No exhaust means no bean can, boy racer exhaust noise.

Just to touch on the brake dust pollution. My previous cars' front wheels were always black with brake dust. My current EV doesn't blacken it's wheels with dust. The frequency of brake pad replacement is a fraction of the ICE car.

Most of the braking on an EV is taken care of by regenerative braking, recovering the kinetic energy with no heat, noise or dust... and little waste of energy.

It's not all about tail pipe emissions. :P

mordeith

mischascha wrote: »

so we all get that dirty staff from the ground digging like European mole for those swanky EV's owners...:>

As opposed to the petrol and diesel which floats gently to pumps on a breeze of sweetly perfumed air

Shefwedfan

Think of the possibilities

If you ever travel by train in Dublin compare a DART and then a Commuter train pulling off the station. The first one silenty but swiftly glides away. The latter betches out smoke, destroys your eardrums and does that for ages before it eventually makes it out of the station. And pointlessly idles all the time when at the station.

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

Just to touch on the brake dust pollution. My previous cars' front wheels were always black with brake dust. My current EV doesn't blacken it's wheels with dust. The frequency of brake pad replacement is a fraction of the ICE car.

Most of the braking on an EV is taken care of by regenerative braking, recovering the kinetic energy with no heat, noise or dust... and little waste of energy.

I saw a video of an NCT test of a Tesla Model S with 400k km on the clock. Still on the original brake disks and the pads had been replaced once. That car weighs about 2.3 tonnes, about the same as a full fat Range Rover...

MrMusician18

mordeith wrote: »

As opposed to the petrol and diesel which floats gently to pumps on a breeze of sweetly perfumed air

In fairness EVs wouldn't exist without a Petro chemical industry either

jimgoose

samih wrote: »

If you ever travel by train in Dublin compare a DART and then a Commuter train pulling off the station. The first one silenty but swiftly glides away. The latter betches out smoke, destroys your eardrums and does that for ages before it eventually makes it out of the station. And pointlessly idles all the time when at the station.

Would you like to guess how much diesel it would take to restart, for example, the 139-litre GM/Electro-Motive 710 V12 two-stroke engine in a 201-class locomotive? Damn straight they leave 'em running for the half-hour or so. :pac:

MrMusician18

jimgoose wrote: »

Would you like to guess how much diesel it would take to restart the 139-litre GM/Electro-Motive 710 V12 two-stroke engine in a 201-class locomotive? Damn straight the leave 'em running for the half-hour or so. :pac:

I may stand corrected, but I don't think they turn the locos off at all because it's so hard to start them.

Gumbo

jimgoose wrote: »

Would you like to guess how much diesel it would take to restart, for example, the 139-litre GM/Electro-Motive 710 V12 two-stroke engine in a 201-class locomotive? Damn straight they leave 'em running for the half-hour or so. :pac:

Im curious now

Shefwedfan

jimgoose wrote: »

Would you like to guess how much diesel it would take to restart, for example, the 139-litre GM/Electro-Motive 710 V12 two-stroke engine in a 201-class locomotive? Damn straight they leave 'em running for the half-hour or so. :pac:

How much?

jimgoose

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How much?

I'm not sure - lots, probably. You'll hear figures mentioned between 20 and 200 litres to start the biggest of them. There are other reasons they're left idle, brake pressure, the sheer thermal difficulty of starting those huge engines, etc.

Gumbo

jimgoose wrote: »

I'm not sure - lots, probably. You'll hear figures mentioned between 20 and 200 litres to start the biggest of them. There are other reasons they're left idle, brake pressure, the sheer thermal difficulty of starting those huge engines, etc.

I've heard before its cheaper to leave them running than switch them off due to cost, time it takes to start them back up etc

jimgoose

kceire wrote: »

I've heard before its cheaper to leave them running than switch them off due to cost, time it takes to start them back up etc

Yes that's true, pretty much. The commuter trains here are the 29000-class Diesel Multiple Unit, which uses a much smaller 12.4-litre 6-cylinder MAN D2876 engine, but of course there's one in each carriage, so they don't turn them off either.

zilog_jones

Diesel trains may look bad, but if you take into account the passenger density compared to individual cars then the emissions per person are still better.

I think electrifying all of Ireland's railways would be cost-prohibitive, considering trying to make them profitable is hard enough as it is.

Orebro

Jesus our trains really are stuck in stone age tech.

Also the sooner they move to electric buses the better. Anyone thats taken a lung full of one of them while cycling will know what I mean.

jimgoose

Orebro wrote: »

Jesus our trains really are stuck in stone age tech...

The 201 and 29000 classes are self-charging hybrids, boss - the only difference between them and a Hyundai Cuddly-Furry-Critter is that the loco doesn't support battery-only running. Actually, that wouldn't be a bad idea while they're in town.

unkel

Orebro wrote: »

Jesus our trains really are stuck in stone age tech.

+1

Almost all trains in the Netherlands are 100% electric and have been so for the guts of a century.

n97 mini

jimgoose wrote: »

The 201 and 29000 classes are self-charging hybrids, boss - the only difference between them and a Hyundai Cuddly-Furry-Critter is that the loco doesn't support battery-only running. Actually, that wouldn't be a bad idea while they're in town.

Are you sure? I didn't think they had any traction battery at all.

n97 mini

zilog_jones wrote: »

Diesel trains may look bad, but if you take into account the passenger density compared to individual cars then the emissions per person are still better.

Assuming the train is packed, and off peak many are nowhere close.

The self charing hybrid joke comes from Bobbyllev at Twitter who compared Toyota Hybrids with Deltic diesel-electric locos. Now I would definitely give them an excuse and then some to be noisy and smoky but I just can't have any love for the 29000. At least the GM (have to consult wiki here) 181 class, and also those 201 but in lesser extent, sound savage at full chat. Need straight pipes for those 201 units.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

Assuming the train is packed, and off peak many are nowhere close.

The one time I took an intercity train from Dublin to Cork in recent years it was empty. Well it wasn't quite empty but almost all passengers were of the non-paying type. I was paying and it was ridiculously expensive (several times what it cost to take a bus)

Ireland doesn't really need intercity trains any more except for some commuting lines.

Close them all down and with the savings, we can subsidise EV buses

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Assuming the train is packed, and off peak many are nowhere close.

Trains are good in grand scale of things, smoky or not. Just that anywhere along the DART line it's a great opportunity to observe with your own eyes the advantages of EV propulsion and imagine how quiet the cities will be after all the cars have been replaced with EVs. At the higher speeds the tyre noise will continue to be the main source of noise from the traffic so no big change expected there.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

The one time I took an intercity train from Dublin to Cork in recent years it was empty. Well it wasn't quite empty but almost all passengers were of the non-paying type. I was paying and it was ridiculously expensive (several times what it cost to take a bus)

Ireland doesn't really need intercity trains any more except for some commuting lines.

Close them all down and with the savings, we can subsidise EV buses

I'm not really in favour of shutting down train lines, even when it possibly makes sense. My first paycheck killed most socialist ideas I had when I left college, but the odd one still remains.

I often do wonder though if trains were run at demand times only, as in some places in the US, would it be better. I was staying in a suburb of Chicago and trains ran only really for the morning and evening commutes. No trains for hours in the middle of the day, and last train at something like 7pm. Could do something similar here on some lines. The 15:05 Sligo-Dublin train regularly runs late so I see it passing in Leixlip as I wait on a train from Maynooth. Rarely more than 3 passengers on board.

Shefwedfan

n97 mini wrote: »

I'm not really in favour of shutting down train lines, even when it possibly makes sense. My first paycheck killed most socialist ideas I had when I left college, but the odd one still remains.

I often do wonder though if trains were run at demand times only, as in some places in the US, would it be better. I was staying in a suburb of Chicago and trains ran only really for the morning and evening commutes. No trains for hours in the middle of the day, and last train at something like 7pm. Could do something similar here on some lines. The 15:05 Sligo-Dublin train regularly runs late so I see it passing in Leixlip as I wait on a train from Maynooth. Rarely more than 3 passengers on board.

If anything I would stop buses and push people towards trains.....

swarlb

unkel wrote: »

+1

Almost all trains in the Netherlands are 100% electric and have been so for the guts of a century.

And you could add that 100 (and more) years ago we had a functioning electric tram system, and the beginnings of electric rail... scuppered by greedy political types who favoured new fangled 'diesel' busses.

Back to the initial question... I think at this stage it's pretty clear, regardless of how lithium is mined, how much fossel fuel is burned during the mining, and taking into account national grid capacity, and whether or not bowsers are operated by electricity or can be hand cranked.. it's pretty much a fact that if you park three modern cars beside each other, with the engines (sic) running, one petrol, one diesel and one electric... the 'Electric Car' will always emit less emissions than the other 2 cars. So, the answer to the OP's question is...

Cleaner than all the others....(unless it need's a valet, in which case it might not be)