New neighbour applies for permission for monstrous extension - without telling us

Gumbo

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

A friend with some building knowledge told me this morning that they will need to gain access from my side to render and finish at least.

This is why consultation would have been better at the outset than going bullheaded on their part.

Well, if you don't gain them access to render the wall, you are the one looking at exposed blocks, not them. Its in your interest to let them render the wall correctly.

Effects

gizmo555 wrote: »

If it's literally a boundary wall, then presumably building it will need some incursion onto your property.

Apart from objecting to the planning application, couldn't you refuse permission to enter your property and, if necessary, dig out a foundation, etc.?

They would have needed permission from the OP if it was a new boundary wall.
The don't need to access the neighbours property to do the foundation.

Simple_Simone

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Just to make it clear I have zero difficulty with them developing the house.

The key issue is the construction of the 20 foot wall at the boundary. That's only ten feet shorter than the Trump Wall!

Your obsession with the height of the so-called Trump Wall is beginning to worry me!

The Millennium Spire on O'Connell Street is 394 feet high, and your neighbour's proposed wall is a mere 5% of that height.

Eric Cartman

so excluding your side 'conservatory' how far back beyond the rear of your house does this plan go, it seems like the detached side of their house being alongside the detached side of yours will have pretty much no impact on you, its only the rear extension second storey that might.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so excluding your side 'conservatory' how far back beyond the rear of your house does this plan go, it seems like the detached side of their house being alongside the detached side of yours will have pretty much no impact on you, its only the rear extension second storey that might.

Yes that's it. It's the rear and side extension second storey that's the problem on my side. It will effectively "fill in" all the way to my glass roof and the full length of it.

On the other side to the other neighbour, he'll be affected less but still somewhat. A large chimney stack (why??) to the top of the roof is planned for the middle of the house and sitting alongside the new bedroom which will protrude prominently out from the rear wall.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Yes that's it. It's the rear and side extension second storey that's the problem on my side. It will effectively "fill in" all the way to my glass roof and the full length of it.

On the other side to the other neighbour, he'll be affected less but still somewhat. A large chimney stack (why??) to the top of the roof is planned for the middle of the house and sitting alongside the new bedroom which will protrude prominently out from the rear wall.

They won't get planning permission for that, to be polite and friendly and tell them you are objecting to this because of how it will impact on you, but also tell them you do not have any objections to any extension that won't impact on you keep things as friendly as possible as you have to live next door to each other.

pwurple

I imagine a chimney stack is going to be there, because they will have a fireplace. That's normal enough, no? We put in a chimney stack.

For what it's worth, we discussed our planning application with all our neighbours. All fine, happy out, except one set, who were apoplectic about it. They objected, as is within their rights, but all objections were ignored, not upheld, because the language they used in the objection was histrionic (ala Trump wall here), not based in any law or planning guideline. They did continue to make things as awkward as they could throughout our build, blocking access to our driveway for suppliers etc, but sure, we got there in the end. Builder was well used to it, water off a ducks back.

Effects

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

It will effectively "fill in" all the way to my glass roof and the full length of it.

Would it be an opportunity to also raise the level of your glass roof? It's the side passage you closed in, right? Usually when that's done, the height isn't great as it's dictated by the wall between you both.

Effects

mariaalice wrote: »

Ttell them you do not have any objections to any extension that won't impact on you keep things as friendly as possible as you have to live next door to each other.

It depends on what the objections are based on. They may well be within their rights to add an extension that still impacts on the neighbour.

Effects

Effects wrote: »

It depends on what the objections are based on. They may well be within their rights to add an extension that still impacts on the neighbour.

Of course, but what the OP is describing sounds way out of proportion to the actual house and surrounding housing.

Effects

Didn't someone mention that there's similar extensions added to houses in the area?

hightower1

swarlb wrote: »

I have a row of very high trees on my property ....These are Lelandaii trees, and were planted long before I bought the house. ..... I cannot afford to have them cut (about 25/30 trees) a.... We approached the council, and they have no interest

Sorry, not to derail but you bought a house with trees on it, then decided after the fact that you wanted the local authority to edit this feature of your purchase at the tax payers expense?

Annnnyways!


@OP, the planning process is 100% working here. It has notified you of your neighbors intentions - you can now object if you wish. Your right to notification has been fulfilled. Hopefully both parties can come to an agreement.

L1011

swarlb wrote: »

We used the 'right to light' argument, thinking they might help, and showed an article from an incident in the UK (Leylandaii are seemingly outlawed over there) but they honestly couldn't care less.
I realise this is a different situation, but the 'right to light' is not a given.

If there had been an equivalent 'right to light' here, this would have resulted in you getting an order to cut them down; or the bill if the council had to - not a freebie from the council!

Cuddlesworth

Effects wrote: »

Didn't someone mention that there's similar extensions added to houses in the area?

There is a road with Farm in the name, that has a similar application and situation. North facing, northside with a line of sight to Connolly via a open space in the rear.

If its the same application, they can argue and have the extension brought more in line with the architecture in the area. Height would drop by 1 or 2 feet. But other then that, they would be straight out of luck. Lots of existing extensions there already, both on the garages and 2 story to the rear.

Mrs Shuttleworth

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course, but what the OP is describing sounds way out of proportion to the actual house and surrounding housing.

Yes - think of a 1940s semi-d with traditional finishings, then a large rectangular "box" with floor to ceiling windows protruding out and over the eaves of the main house roof towards the rear and side and jutting then out from the rear wall of the house.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

There is a road with Farm in the name, that has a similar application and situation. North facing, northside with a line of sight to Connolly via a open space in the rear.

If its the same application, they can argue and have the extension brought more in line with the architecture in the area. Height would drop by 1 or 2 feet. But other then that, they would be straight out of luck. Lots of existing extensions there already, both on the garages and 2 story to the rear.

I actually know the road you are talking about. Mine is on the northside.

The key issue for me is the wall and extension built right up to the passageway in tandem with its height.

I sincerely hope the planners afford me the courtesy of bringing the whole project back by the width of the passageway to retain at least some of my light. I really don't think that's too much to ask.

ebbsy

pc7 wrote: »

We are planning an extension and will call to our neighbours either side (one connected, one not) to advise them of our plans as you say as a courtesy. Its a pity they didn't do this for you, but going by the plans they probably could guess the reaction. Get proper sound advice and lodge your complaint. Not the greatest of start with a new neighbour but such is life. Hopefully they scale down the plans and it isn't as intrusive to you.

Yeah when I was getting an extension I mentioned it to the neighbour. I was going ahead with it anyway but did it out of common manners.

Penn

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Yes - think of a 1940s semi-d with traditional finishings, then a large rectangular "box" with floor to ceiling windows protruding out and over the eaves of the main house roof towards the rear and side and jutting then out from the rear wall of the house.

In fairness, there's nothing wrong with combining a modern style of architecture with traditional, especially if it's a rear extension. You could raise it as part of your objection, but it would be a minor point at best.

The strength of your objection best comes down to the impact the extension will have on you and your property. Daylight, overshadowing, potential overlooking, works proposed to your boundary wall, potential damage to your property as a result of the works (because they're building on the boundary wall), any potential drainage issues, security for your property (if the boundary wall between your properties is taken down for a period of time to allow the works), damage to your existing garden finishes.

These should first and foremost be the main points to argue, as they could have an affect on your property. The style of the extension is a matter of personal taste.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Penn wrote: »

In fairness, there's nothing wrong with combining a modern style of architecture with traditional, especially if it's a rear extension. You could raise it as part of your objection, but it would be a minor point at best.

The strength of your objection best comes down to the impact the extension will have on you and your property. Daylight, overshadowing, potential overlooking, works proposed to your boundary wall, potential damage to your property as a result of the works (because they're building on the boundary wall), any potential drainage issues, security for your property (if the boundary wall between your properties is taken down for a period of time to allow the works), damage to your existing garden finishes.

These should first and foremost be the main points to argue, as they could have an affect on your property. The style of the extension is a matter of personal taste.

I suspect that the project is explicitly designed to be contrasting. That isn't really an issue for me in itself.

Am I not wrong in thinking that planners do take it into account though?

As you said that's not my main issue.

pwurple

The planners actively encourage contemporary extensions onto older buildings. We had a pre-planning meeting, showed two drawings, one was same pitched roof, same same shape gables etc as existing house. Other was a contemporary "box" type extension. They encouraged the contemporary one from a planning perspective.

Penn

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

I suspect that the project is explicitly designed to be contrasting. That isn't really an issue for me in itself.

Am I not wrong in thinking that planners do take it into account though?

As you said that's not my main issue.

They do, but it can be very subjective and dependent on a lot of different factors. That style of extension might suit that house and the area, but might not suit another (even though the houses might seem similar).

If you check the planning docs submitted with the application, they may have included a memo explaining the choice of style. The planning docs are well worth reviewing, as they may have anticipated what your likely objections could be and tried to justify them in advance as part of their application. As such you'd be able to counter any claims they've made.

Mrs Shuttleworth

pwurple wrote: »

The planners actively encourage contemporary extensions onto older buildings. We had a pre-planning meeting, showed two drawings, one was same pitched roof, same same shape gables etc as existing house. Other was a contemporary "box" type extension. They encouraged the contemporary one from a planning perspective.

Off topic and certainly not intended personally but I think the current minimalist style of architecture for extensions (as frequently seen on TV) could age quite badly. I don't think there's sufficient character or warmth in the designs to be interesting to look at in the long run.

VeryTerry

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Off topic and certainly not intended personally but I think the current minimalist style of architecture for extensions (as frequently seen on TV) could age quite badly. I don't think there's sufficient character or warmth in the designs to be interesting to look at in the long run.

My parents put one of those glass conservatories that were popular on to their house in the 90's. It was the biggest waste of money for what was essentially a room used to keep cans cold when there was a party on.

These new box extensions would have been a far more functional use of the space.

Mrs Shuttleworth

VeryTerry wrote: »

My parents put one of those glass conservatories that were popular on to their house in the 90's. It was the biggest waste of money for what was essentially a room used to keep cans cold when there was a party on.

These new box extensions would have been a far more functional use of the space.

"Functional" is the word but little else.

Gumbo

mariaalice wrote: »

They won't get planning permission for that, to be polite and friendly and tell them you are objecting to this because of how it will impact on you, but also tell them you do not have any objections to any extension that won't impact on you keep things as friendly as possible as you have to live next door to each other.

Why would Planning be refused?
I’ve gotten planning for full width 2 storey extensions to the side and rear in recent times.

In fact, depending on the development plan, the council may insists that the side extension sits out further or behind the front building line to reduce the terrace effect.

Gumbo

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

"Functional" is the word but little else.

You could argue the same for your side glass roof extension?

Marcusm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

I actually know the road you are talking about. Mine is on the northside.

The key issue for me is the wall and extension built right up to the passageway in tandem with its height.

I sincerely hope the planners afford me the courtesy of bringing the whole project back by the width of the passageway to retain at least some of my light. I really don't think that's too much to ask.

The width of the passageway would not, except on high summer days, have a significant enhancement to your light. Presume the passageway is 2m or less wide. That would easily be pushed back by your neighbour’s architect or planning consultant. I’m going to get that the issue is one if overhearing mass rather than direct interference with light.

Theanswers

A drop of Honey catches more flies than a gallon of gal...

Don't go in all guns blazing. That's my 2c.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Much appreciated. I will informally approach them and tell them I will be objecting, and will have to do so because they didn't consult with me in the first instance.

I agree with you they in all likelihood didn't want to draw my attention to the content in as far as possible.

They are not living in the house and (apparently) are not selling their existing house.

I'm all for talking but in this case, I honestly don't believe they care- from what you've said it's also possible that they won't be living there full time if they haven't sold their current home.

It might be a doer-upper and sell on for profit so they won't care what sort of "relations" they have with you because longterm, you don't matter to them.

I'd go first and foremost to a good planning consultant and formulate your objection. Most decent people knock on the door of their neighbours and let them know they're doing an extension, even if it doesn't impede on their property- it's a recognised good practice approach, especially if you want to avoid hassle later or talk through issues that might raise objections.

These guys haven't taken that approach which leads me to believe they know they'll get most of what they want eventually, with or without your help or blessing.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Marcusm wrote: »

The width of the passageway would not, except on high summer days, have a significant enhancement to your light. Presume the passageway is 2m or less wide. That would easily be pushed back by your neighbour’s architect or planning consultant. I’m going to get that the issue is one if overhearing mass rather than direct interference with light.

Ok I see what you mean. I understand there's some lighting test/report that can be carried out by planning consultants during disputes.

7znbd9xmoiupye

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

no that is what the notification is for . has to be a notice on site and in paper

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

You can make an objection and if you are not happy you can appeal to an bord pleanala

jippo nolan

Was Dermot Bannon seen hanging around?

this is a 2009 article but "light" features strongly as a common objection- has legislation been updated since?

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/how-to-object-to-that-monstrosity-planned-next-door-1.1236131

Effects

Bailee Mango Gauche wrote: »

no that is what the notification is for . has to be a notice on site and in paper
You can make an objection and if you are not happy you can appeal to an bord pleanala

Nice work. We got as far as page six in this thread and nobody thought of that until now.

fxotoole

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

What makes you think your neighbours are under any obligation to tell you what they plan to do with their own private property?

Claw Hammer

kceire wrote: »

Well, if you don't gain them access to render the wall, you are the one looking at exposed blocks, not them. Its in your interest to let them render the wall correctly.

They can make you give them access. If they are going to need access they have to invoke the party wall procedure. You can make them pay all of your professional fees.

Effects

fxotoole wrote: »

What makes you think your neighbours are under any obligation to tell you what they plan to do with their own private property?

Because it's a polite and neighbourly thing to do.
And just because it's their property doesn't mean they can do whatever they want with it.

Effects

Claw Hammer wrote: »

They can make you give them access. If they are going to need access they have to invoke the party wall procedure. You can make them pay all of your professional fees.

They aren't building on the party wall. They are building inside it.

Claw Hammer

Effects wrote: »

They aren't building on the party wall. They are building inside it.

It doesn't matter. If a wall is built so close to the boundary as to affect the neighbour, it is deemed to be a party wall and various provisions relating to party structures come into effect. If the only way the new wall can be maintained by accessing the neighbours property then it is a party wall for the purposes of the land and conveyancing (law reform) act 2009.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It doesn't matter. If a wall is built so close to the boundary as to affect the neighbour, it is deemed to be a party wall and various provisions relating to party structures come into effect. If the only way the new wall can be maintained by accessing the neighbours property then it is a party wall for the purposes of the land and conveyancing (law reform) act 2009.

So effectively that wall would be erected without our consent and we would have responsibilities in relation to the wall.

I don't want to "doxx" myself but they'd have difficulty enforcing any access order in our case. The lawful owner is disabled and paraplegic.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

So effectively that wall would be erected without my consent and I would have responsibilities in relation to the wall.

I don't want to "doxx" myself but they'd have difficulty enforcing any access order in our case. The lawful owner is disabled and paraplegic.

Start building your case.

Seems to me like you need to set your outrage aside for a moment and go talk to your neighbour.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Darrell Curved Streptomycin wrote: »

Seems to me like you need to set your outrage aside for a moment and go talk to your neighbour.

That's the whole point of my saying in the OP that as a courtesy he should have told me of his plans.

Because the application has gone in now, I have no option but to formally object.

appledrop

If you have barely seen them they could be planning to just do it up and sell it on. You need to get good advice on this as others have said + put in an objection asap. Never take it for granted that council will not pass it. They make some mad decisions. There was an issue with planning application for house on our road + neighbours came together + got professional advice on what the council usually will not accept for extension etc. The objection was accpeted by council + extension refused. A common reason is if not enough garden space left after extension then it will be refused.

Best of luck with it.

Effects

appledrop wrote: »

A common reason is if not enough garden space left after extension then it will be refused.

The amount of garden space needed per bed space was reduced last year as far as I know.

Claw Hammer

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

So effectively that wall would be erected without our consent and we would have responsibilities in relation to the wall.

I don't want to "doxx" myself but they'd have difficulty enforcing any access order in our case. The lawful owner is disabled and paraplegic.

A neighbour can apply to the District Court for a "Works Order" enabling the applicant to enter onto the property of the neighbour for the purpose of maintaining their own property. If the wall is going to become effectively a party structure you should be taking steps now in relation to it.

jon1981

Stop panicking , consult an architect and draft a comprehensive observation. The process is there to listen seriously to your concerns.

We were in your situation and the development next to us was scaled back by half the proposed scale due to privacy and light concerns.

Trust the system and use an expert to draft the observation, don't half arse it.

Make a formal objection, and have a chat with the neighbour.

Figure out their plans (ie; to live there forever, or sell it on fairly sharpish).

As an aside, I can't see them selling it. Rarely (if ever) would doing this level of renovation make sense on a house you plan to sell (presumably for a profit). I'd imagine they are just renovating so they can try and get the dirty work done while they live elsewhere.

Have a chat with them. You'll find that by sitting around over-thinking it, you'll be inventing rows and arguments in your head that don't actually exist in real life.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Claw Hammer wrote: »

A neighbour can apply to the District Court for a "Works Order" enabling the applicant to enter onto the property of the neighbour for the purpose of maintaining their own property. If the wall is going to become effectively a party structure you should be taking steps now in relation to it.

Yup I checked that just now and thanks for the heads up. I'll need to see a solicitor with expertise in boundaries and party wall issues.

Orchids

jon1981 wrote: »

Stop panicking , consult an architect and draft a comprehensive observation. The process is there to listen seriously to your concerns.

We were in your situation and the development next to us was scaled back by half the proposed scale due to privacy and light concerns.

Trust the system and use an expert to draft the observation, don't half arse it.

Exactly this, we had same situation and again, development was scaled way back