Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

phog

An example from the same match of a player pointing out an error to the ref and being dismissed is Crowley saying the tap & go was off the thigh and the ref telling him porkies without him or the TMO confirming it. That was a 7 points in a game we lost by 3

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123378039#Comment_123378039

The outcome of the HIA is. The need for one can be called for by many people.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123378339#Comment_123378339

Because teams were faking injuries to remove the advantage the opposition had from a dominant scrum. This isn't a hypothetical, it was a thing that was definitely happening. So the prop would get "injured", and they'd bring on a backrow or a hooker to give more dynamism in open play and not have to worry about the scrum. It was a double whammy advantage.

pickarooney

Bit it's a double-whammy disadvantage for a team whose player gets injured through no fault of his own. It's not like the rule can encourage props not to get injured.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123378380#Comment_123378380

The rule should encourage teams to have their props designated to play both sides, especially when they have played there before - like was the case for Munster on the bench Saturday but they must not have had him down for both sides.

phog

Mods, can you please move the chat about the law to one of the two threads on the laws of rugby and keep the Munster stuff to the Munster thread.

ersatz

there wasn't much management could do from the sideline other than let Beirne know the law once (if) they figured it out. Is it odd that pro teams don't designate one of the match day off field team to take referee courses and know the laws?

CONSI

disappointing performance, our backline didnt fire, never got to the edge with an overlap. Lineout is a major issue and has been for a few seasons. Seems too complicated at times with lots of movement. There was way too much kicking aswell, obviously was in the game plan but kicking ball away to them to allow them hit bombs at a 5'5 full back didnt make sense to me.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123378341#Comment_123378341

Fair enough. Maybe I am being unfair in expecting the captain to know the rules better than the average player and to question the refs decision when it puts them down a player

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123378348#Comment_123378348

The outcome of that would have been a re-taking of the penalty, probably another tap-and-go or a lineout while the bulls were on fire. The result would still be a 7-pointer but with less time on the clock for Munster to make up the difference

budhabob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123378846#Comment_123378846

While 7 points might be possible, "likely" is a stretch - everything is possible i.e. it could have been a momentum change to Munster. Ultimately a poor munster performance was compounded by 2 glaring lapses in officiating.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379189#Comment_123379189

I don't think a re-take of a penalty would have swung the momentum our way. At the time of the bulls scoring that try there was actually a new penalty advantage in play against us, that put us on 2 penalties within 5m of our own try line. Another penalty given away would likely have resulted in a yellow

If our performance was better we would have won the game regardless of those two officiating lapses disasters.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379250#Comment_123379250

Are you sure that if the ref pulled The Bulls for an incorrect tap & go that he allows them retake the penalty? Is it not a scrum to Munster

But even if he does, would they not have gone for the posts, that's what they did with the rest of their kickable penalties.

Even if they get a penalty and score a try from it, you would like to think a good ref and or a TMO would check these things out when highlighted by the opposition.

Earlier in the thread you said we didn't score why they were down a man, we did.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123377673#Comment_123377673

Got away with it too, that day. (Which made Sundays result all the sweeter!)

TomsOnTheRoof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379288#Comment_123379288

It would have resulted in a scrum to Munster. It's covered under Law 20.11. It was a very costly error from Piardi. Unfortunately it wasn't the only one on the night.

antfin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379288#Comment_123379288

Yeah, a botched tap should result in a scrum and not a re-take so there would have been no score there.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379288#Comment_123379288

Are you sure that if the ref pulled The Bulls for an incorrect tap & go that he allows them retake the penalty? Is it not a scrum to Munster

I've often seen a team take the penalty from the wrong spot ans score a "try" only for the ref to call them back, move them a few inches and let them retake the penalty. Usually a tap-and-go follows a failed one because of the momentum gained but I suppose we don't know what would have happened in reality

Earlier in the thread you said we didn't score why they were down a man, we did.

I'm trying to recall were we down to 14 men before that penalty or not

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379317#Comment_123379317

Not always. All depends on circumstances of game. If you take law as its in law book yes but you cant do that all the time in reality.

antfin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379327#Comment_123379327

The ball should go forward off the foot with clear seperation from the hands and failure to do that should result in a scrum. He effectively knocked the ball forward with his upper leg so it's not a retake but a scrum.

Edit to add correct citation - World Rugby law 20.8 on how a penalty must be taken: “The kicker may punt, drop-kick or place-kick (other than for touch) the ball." World Rugby also clarified that a kick is deemed to be contact with the leg below the knee, not including the knee.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379327#Comment_123379327

Taking a penalty from the wrong spot and botching a penalty kick are two very different things, I'm not sure the ref would have allowed them to retake that kick if he deemed that they botched it. More so, if he had it checked it after it being highlighted to him. Yet, you're certain they would have another bite of the cherry and that they would have scored a try. I think we would have got a scrum.

I'm trying to recall were we down to 14 men before that penalty or not

These things (like saying we didn't score while they had a YC) are fact checkable, we didn't go down a man until Archer was subbed off and that happened in the second half. I'm not expecting anyone here, including you, to accept that I think Munster were grievously wronged on Saturday night but I do expect people proposing a different view to that to at least use facts when engaging.

antfin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379333#Comment_123379333

The sanction for failing to properly execute the "kick" part is very clear in the laws and it should have been a scrum.

20.11The ball must be kicked a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark. Once the kick has been successfully taken the kicker may play the ball again.
Sanction:Scrum.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379389#Comment_123379389

Thats taking the law as its written with no thinking of practicalities of reffing an actual game. You cant simply take it as its written all the time.

antfin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379438#Comment_123379438

I agree where there's scope for interpretation but in this case the sanction is very clear and I've seen many players penalised with a scrum for failing to execute a tap correctly by kicking the ball forward. Usually it's failure to actually move the ball forward but it's the same thing here. A retake would be effectively allowing a team get away with miskicking a penalty kick and giving them the opportunity to take it again.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379454#Comment_123379454

Referee could argue that Munster weren't back ten so the attempted quick tap should be retaken. (I'm sure that some pedant can dig up a reference in the Laws to that.)

Brief_Lives

Cardiff Rugby v Munster

Cardiff Arms Park, Cardiff – KO 19.35 IRE & UK / 20.35 ITA / 20.35 SA

Referee: Gianluca Gnecchi (FIR, 39th league game)

AR 1: Mike English (WRU) AR 2: Aaron Parry (WRU)

TMO: Stefano Roscini (FIR)

Gianluca was a little hard on Ulster last week, made some bewildering decisions..

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379617#Comment_123379617

Gianluca was a little hard on Ulster last week, made some bewildering decisions..

He'll fit right in so 🤣

aloooof

Injury update. More positive than negative, for a change:

On the injury front following the Bulls game, Oli Jager is unavailable this weekend after a HIA on Saturday.

Stephen Archer is being assessed for a shoulder injury.

Diarmuid Kilgallen came through his return to action with no issues.

Craig Casey (illness) and Peter O’Mahony (tight hamstring) were late withdrawals ahead of the Bulls game.

Casey has returned to training and O’Mahony’s availability for Friday night will be determined later in the week.

Gavin Coombes and Calvin Nash both return to training this week after missing the Bulls clash due to ankle injuries.

The availability of John Hodnett (toe) and Diarmuid Barron (shoulder/arm) will be determined later in the week.

Mike Haley will start reintegrating into squad training this week having been unavailable since January due to an ankle injury.

Continuing to rehab: Jeremy Loughman (hamstring), Ethan Coughlan (hamstring), Billy Burns (shoulder), Shane Daly (hamstring), Dave Kilcoyne (Achilles), Liam Coombes (chest), Edwin Edogbo (Achilles), Roman Salanoa (knee).

Very short at TH, but that's all of Casey, Coombes and Nash straight back into our starting 15.

Whatever about this weekend, hope POM makes it back for the following week, his last game in Thomond.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379485#Comment_123379485

Munster could likewise argue that the penalty wasn't taken so they didn't have to be back 10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123379372#Comment_123379372

I don't think there is any question they were wronged. But the likelihood of them winning that game was always slim. Yes fair enough we scored a penalty while they had a man in the bin, so did they mind so no real advantage gained from them going down to 14

We need to win 2 of the next 3 matches, I think regardless of BPs that should secure a top 8 finish for us. In theory Cardiff and Benetton will be the tougher of the 3 tests as they sit above us in the table but all 3 of our upcoming opposition have to win to keep their hopes of the top 8 in the mix as well… Gonna be a fun last few rounds

aloooof

We're fortunate in the sense that the 3 remaining fixtures are all against teams we're vying with for position; a win would not only give us the match points, but deny them too.

Of course, that works both ways too…. Hopefully the fact we have 2 home games should be enough to see us firmly in the top 8. I'm always wary of Cardiff, we always seem to have high-scoring games against them.

Bit of a weird one to have 3 consecutive Friday night games as well. Hopefully we'll just go out and get our business done before every one else even kicks off.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123380027#Comment_123380027

You're twisting what you initially said, but that's no surprise so I'll leave you be.

kub

Piardi will not be reffing next weekend;

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/urc-referee-pays-the-price-for-munster-mare-as-nigel-owens-call-for-accountability-is-heard