Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

PTH2009

more evident then ever we need a quality kicker

The Lost Sheep

PTH2009 wrote: »

more evident then ever we need a quality kicker

Munster need so much more than a quality kicker.
Putting loads of blame and criticism on JJ for missing the kicks is missing the point. Yes he deserves some criticism as there were a few misses that he should have slotted but the biggest issue by a mile is how Munster structure their attack and actually play with ball in hand.

Kirk Van Houten

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Munster need so much more than a quality kicker.
Putting loads of blame and criticism on JJ for missing the kicks is missing the point. Yes he deserves some criticism as there were a few misses that he should have slotted but the biggest issue by a mile is how Munster structure their attack and actually play with ball in hand.

Just so I'm getting this right you are suggesting that the issue is with the coaches gameplan?

The same gameplan that stiffled Leinster completely. Tied them into their own half for long periods, where they could only give up pens or kick for touch allowing Munster to relaunch an attack. Munster had the chances but couldn't execute. Missed lineouts and miss kicks at goal.

The coaches who were without 3 of their biggest ball carriers who could give them front foot ball and their only international standard outhalf are the problem but you suggest they focus on a gameplan of keeping the ball in hand despite not having the players to provide the platform to do so.

Ok. Think we all learned a lot about your rugby knowledge there sheepy.

paddy no 11

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Just so I'm getting this right you are suggesting that the issue is with the coaches gameplan?

The same gameplan that stiffled Leinster completely. Tied them into their own half for long periods, where they could only give up pens or kick for touch allowing Munster to relaunch an attack. Munster had the chances but couldn't execute. Missed lineouts and miss kicks at goal.

The coaches who were without 3 of their biggest ball carriers who could give them front foot ball and their only international standard outhalf are the problem but you suggest they focus on a gameplan of keeping the ball in hand despite not having the players to provide the platform to do so.

Ok. Think we all learned a lot about your rugby knowledge there sheepy.

We scored 3 points in 80 minutes, doubt there was a line break or a meaningful offload - dire stuff

The Lost Sheep

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Just so I'm getting this right you are suggesting that the issue is with the coaches gameplan?

The same gameplan that stiffled Leinster completely. Tied them into their own half for long periods, where they could only give up pens or kick for touch allowing Munster to relaunch an attack. Munster had the chances but couldn't execute. Missed lineouts and miss kicks at goal.

The coaches who were without 3 of their biggest ball carriers who could give them front foot ball and their only international standard outhalf are the problem but you suggest they focus on a gameplan of keeping the ball in hand despite not having the players to provide the platform to do so.

Ok. Think we all learned a lot about your rugby knowledge there sheepy.

Munster tried to do same thing again. Munsters game plan was terrible. Box kick after box kick.
Yes they were without some of their strongest ball carriers but they still dont play cleverly. You have a nearly 50 capped springbok world cup winning centre and he isnt used.
Munsters forwards ran a total of 10 metres from 27 carries. Their attack is ****e missing players or not it isnt good enough for a team that aspires to win trophies.
The game plan did stifle Leinster once. But Leinster learn. Munster tried to do the same thing again and were found out.

irishbucsfan

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Just so I'm getting this right you are suggesting that the issue is with the coaches gameplan?

The same gameplan that stiffled Leinster completely. Tied them into their own half for long periods, where they could only give up pens or kick for touch allowing Munster to relaunch an attack. Munster had the chances but couldn't execute. Missed lineouts and miss kicks at goal.

The coaches who were without 3 of their biggest ball carriers who could give them front foot ball and their only international standard outhalf are the problem but you suggest they focus on a gameplan of keeping the ball in hand despite not having the players to provide the platform to do so.

Ok. Think we all learned a lot about your rugby knowledge there sheepy.

Munster scored 3 points. This is exceptionally myopic.

What was the highest phase count Munster managed in the opposition half? How many 22 entries did they have and what was the success rate of those?

The coaches don’t need to be replaced or anything remotely like that, but they wouldn’t even attempt to claim this game went according to plan

Kirk Van Houten

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster scored 3 points. This is exceptionally myopic.

What was the highest phase count Munster managed in the opposition half? How many 22 entries did they have and what was the success rate of those?

The coaches don’t need to be replaced or anything remotely like that, but they wouldn’t even attempt to claim this game went according to plan

That game plan works with the three front five players back. Match Leinster physically and they struggle.

Anyone suggesting that a more expansive game plan can be implemented in two weeks is talking through their hoop.

That was the best that could be done in the timeframe and with the resources available. They made it a contest. Apart from the freak game against Zebre how many other teams hold Leinster to less than 15 points and make the game a contest?

The Lost Sheep

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

That game plan works with the three front five players back. Match Leinster physically and they struggle.

Anyone suggesting that a more expansive game plan can be implemented in two weeks is talking through their hoop.

That was the best that could be done in the timeframe and with the resources available. They made it a contest. Apart from the freak game against Zebre how many other teams hold Leinster to less than 15 points and make the game a contest?

It isnt the best that could be done. Are you seriously suggesting that Munster couldnt have done more to adapt their attack and show some variety?

Former Former

The biggest problem on Friday was that Munster were getting absolutely nowhere but couldn't seem to adapt. If there was a plan B, it's been kept under wraps. I don't know if that's JVG, on-field leadership or both but it wasn't great.

I would also have hoped for more immediate impact for DDA to be honest.

Burkie1203

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Anyone suggesting that a more expansive game plan can be implemented in two weeks is talking through their hoop.

2 weeks? What about JVG for 3 seasons, Larkham in place a year ......

Leinster made huge strides forward in some areas in 2 weeks to negate Munster strengths and Munster just ploughed on regardless ......

the_blackstuff

Our attack is just not good enough. Look at the quality we have now across the backs and they never get the chance to threaten anyone. We're not powerful enough up front to play the game plan we're using within the 22, and it's like that for a few years. We need a 10, 6 or 7, tighthead who can carry and let one of our young locks have a shot instead of Billy( love the guy, great servant but time for change).
Some of our personal are just not up to it! Leinster are the bench mark for us. Look how they give youth a shot.

Pepp1989

Former Former wrote:

I would also have hoped for more immediate impact for DDA to be honest.

Thought he was good the first two games. Very quiet in the semi final but centres always struggle when ball is slow and pack being beaten.

irishbucsfan

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

That game plan works with the three front five players back. Match Leinster physically and they struggle.

Anyone suggesting that a more expansive game plan can be implemented in two weeks is talking through their hoop.

That was the best that could be done in the timeframe and with the resources available. They made it a contest. Apart from the freak game against Zebre how many other teams hold Leinster to less than 15 points and make the game a contest?

Maybe it does work with them back. But they weren’t there this weekend. They weren’t kidnapped 5 minutes before kickoff.

It’s a bit pathetic for the team to just pretend they never had a chance anyway and 3 points was a fair return. So I don’t buy for a second that they’re happy with it.

They were consistently forced to exit because they couldn’t put phases together in the opposition half. And often they were exiting behind where they had first phase. That’s not because it was their game plan. That’s laughable. It’s because they were not able to execute. If that’s because they were missing players (including Snyman who literally just arrived, so I’ve no idea how they’re dependent on him) then that’s just an excuse, and i don’t think any of those coaches are the types to make excuses for performances like that. They’ve quality there to have done more, they need to hold their hands up and examine why they weren’t able to do that.

The Lost Sheep

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

That game plan works with the three front five players back. Match Leinster physically and they struggle.

Anyone suggesting that a more expansive game plan can be implemented in two weeks is talking through their hoop.

That was the best that could be done in the timeframe and with the resources available. They made it a contest. Apart from the freak game against Zebre how many other teams hold Leinster to less than 15 points and make the game a contest?

But those three werent there and Munster knew that so why try play something else.
That game plan isnt good enough. The timeframe?
The Head coach has been there 3 years. Larkham a season. He isnt just off the plane coaching the team for the first time.

the_blackstuff wrote: »

Our attack is just not good enough. Look at the quality we have now across the backs and they never get the chance to threaten anyone. We're not powerful enough up front to play the game plan we're using within the 22, and it's like that for a few years. We need a 10, 6 or 7, tighthead who can carry and let one of our young locks have a shot instead of Billy( love the guy, great servant but time for change).
Some of our personal are just not up to it! Leinster are the bench mark for us. Look how they give youth a shot.

The younger players like Ahern or other second rows need to be tried in pro14. Some were suggesting in places these games needed to have the younger guys involved but that was never going to happen.
Its not so much a tighthead that can carry who is needed but more forwards who can carry effectively full stop. Now Snyman would have helped but even still there was need for another two or three.
When you say need a 6 or 7 who would you sign and which position? Jack O Donoghue has been good recently and deserves spot alongside CJ but what way do you pick a backrow?

Caranica

PTH2009 wrote: »

more evident then ever we need a quality kicker

We had 3 kickers on the pitch. What happened to horses for courses? The kick JJ missed in the first Leinster game was made for Scannell's left boot. The Auckland Blues rotated the kicking duty between Black and Barrett depending on the angle and distance. We used to do likewise but not for a long time.

Superfoods

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Just so I'm getting this right you are suggesting that the issue is with the coaches gameplan?

The same gameplan that stiffled Leinster completely. Tied them into their own half for long periods, where they could only give up pens or kick for touch allowing Munster to relaunch an attack. Munster had the chances but couldn't execute. Missed lineouts and miss kicks at goal.

The coaches who were without 3 of their biggest ball carriers who could give them front foot ball and their only international standard outhalf are the problem but you suggest they focus on a gameplan of keeping the ball in hand despite not having the players to provide the platform to do so.

Ok. Think we all learned a lot about your rugby knowledge there sheepy.

You do realise Munster lost?

the_blackstuff

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

When you say need a 6 or 7 who would you sign and which position? Jack O Donoghue has been good recently and deserves spot alongside CJ but what way do you pick a backrow?

Who outside of CJ makes the Leinster backrow? I don't think POM has the grunt for 6 anymore.

The Lost Sheep

the_blackstuff wrote: »

Who outside of CJ makes the Leinster backrow? I don't think POM has the grunt for 6 anymore.

Probably none but that doesnt mean Munster need to sign two backrows.
And which position do you sign?

Superfoods

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Probably none but that doesnt mean Munster need to sign two backrows.
And which position do you sign?

Don’t sign anyone

Starts to promote player from the academy.

the_blackstuff

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Probably none but that doesnt mean Munster need to sign two backrows.
And which position do you sign?

A specialist 6 or 8. CJ can play either. Are you happy with the make up of the squad for the current game plan? I'm not.

Richie_Rich89

I think the criticism of van Graan just based on this one game is a bit over the top. Leinster showed a bit more ambition. But what did it actually get them? Scoring chances were few and far between. The conditions, coupled with the new breakdown interpretations, made it difficult to go through the phases while playing enterprising rugby. I'd actually be more frustrated if I was a Munster fan based on the approach in the Connacht game. They tried the boxkick into the opposition '22 strategy in that game in nice weather, and didn't look too hot in terms of playing to space intelligently.

i suppose you're going to get criticism for employing liberal use of the boxkick unless you actually win the competition in question. The Springboks were getting quite a lot of heat over their limited tactics throughout their World Cup campaign. Maybe you have to be the most physical team in your sphere for it to actually work to the extent of winning a trophy.

I don't think van Graan is a great coach, but he's nowhere near the nadir of Foley of losing comprehensively to a Stade Français team down to 14 men for a whole half or finishing 3rd in the Euro pool two seasons in a row and struggling to make Europe based on league position.

I think you could make the point - based on their results over the last few seasons - that they're a flat-track bully side. They need to try to find a style that'll translate up through the levels a bit better. It's no good putting 60+ points on completely physically outmatched opposition like Ulster or the Kings. What does that actually get you in the long run? Better to practice your skills in those kind of situations rather than just brutalising the other team. You need to practise to be able to play a bit when you've only got parity physically.

Stander and O'Mahony were probably Munster's two highest level forwards selected for the game but I would be fairly confident predicting that Ireland or Munster won't win anything with Stander at 8 and O'Mahony at 6 unless they've got a freakishly physical openside alongside them who's bordering on being world class. The 2018 win over the All Blacks is the obvious exception but to be consistently good enough I think Munster either need to find this high-level 7 (Hodnett?) or re-jig the backrow.

thomond2006

Gavin Coombes 2021
Chris Cloete 2022
Tommy O'Donnell 2021
Jack O'Donoghue 2021
Peter O'Mahony 2021
Jack O'Sullivan 2023
CJ Stander 2021

Jack Daly Year 3
John Hodnett Year 2
Alex Kendellen Year 1

Backrow is one position where they are young replacements. JOS has replaced Arno Botha and had started the two international windows prior to Covid-19. He got a three year contract out of the academy which rarely happens, Munster have to rate him highly. TOD is in the last year of his contract and he should be replaced by Hodnett in the next year or so. Gavin Coombes will be seeking more opportunities but he may also be used at lock. I don't know anything about Jack Daly.

Looking back in the last few years we were unlucky that DOC's career at Munster was ruined by injury, he was very promising. Had he stayed injury free I don't think it's crazy to suggest that he could be a starter right now. Conor Oliver was also luckless and could have been a decent squad option.

The Lost Sheep

the_blackstuff wrote: »

A specialist 6 or 8. CJ can play either. Are you happy with the make up of the squad for the current game plan? I'm not.

Did i say i was?
Why not trust the promising young backrowers and see if they can do it?
The backrow has loads of young players with potential. Daly, Hodnett and O Sullivan all need to get game time.

Burkie1203

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I think the criticism of van Graan just based on this one game is a bit over the top.

One game.... it's 3 years including a year with a highly thought of backs coach (Larkham) where plan A was boxkick and it was the only plan.

Leinster ambition got them 10 points more then Munster.

About 18/24 months ago I think it was and Stander put a Leinster play on his arse with a big carry. 30 seconds later Munsters back line went backwards after some slow ruck ball and poor passes. The Stander carry became a GIF on Twitter and CJ was a legend. Munster lost.

When Doris was named ahead of POM in February, one Twitter account was tweeting about an Andy Farrell quote about how POMs first action after being told he was on the bench was to head to the laptops to do some prep work. It was tagged as brilliant leadership by the Twitter account owner.

I guess it depends on what you want from players or a team. Leinster can follow up a big moment with more big moments. Munster cannot. POMs biggest attribute is something totally ineffective on the pitch.

The Lost Sheep

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I think the criticism of van Graan just based on this one game is a bit over the top. Leinster showed a bit more ambition. But what did it actually get them? Scoring chances were few and far between. The conditions, coupled with the new breakdown interpretations, made it difficult to go through the phases while playing enterprising rugby. I'd actually be more frustrated if I was a Munster fan based on the approach in the Connacht game. They tried the boxkick into the opposition '22 strategy in that game in nice weather, and didn't look too hot in terms of playing to space intelligently.

i suppose you're going to get criticism for employing liberal use of the boxkick unless you actually win the competition in question. The Springboks were getting quite a lot of heat over their limited tactics throughout their World Cup campaign. Maybe you have to be the most physical team in your sphere for it to actually work to the extent of winning a trophy.

I don't think van Graan is a great coach, but he's nowhere near the nadir of Foley of losing comprehensively to a Stade Français team down to 14 men for a whole half or finishing 3rd in the Euro pool two seasons in a row and struggling to make Europe based on league position.

I think you could make the point - based on their results over the last few seasons - that they're a flat-track bully side. They need to try to find a style that'll translate up through the levels a bit better. It's no good putting 60+ points on completely physically outmatched opposition like Ulster or the Kings. What does that actually get you in the long run? Better to practice your skills in those kind of situations rather than just brutalising the other team. You need to practise to be able to play a bit when you've only got parity physically.

Stander and O'Mahony were probably Munster's two highest level forwards selected for the game but I would be fairly confident predicting that Ireland or Munster won't win anything with Stander at 8 and O'Mahony at 6 unless they've got a freakishly physical openside alongside them who's bordering on being world class. The 2018 win over the All Blacks is the obvious exception but to be consistently good enough I think Munster either need to find this high-level 7 (Hodnett?) or re-jig the backrow.

Its not at all based on one game. There has been plenty of criticism for quite some time. He has been here as head coach for 3 seasons and where's the improvement?
Munster are trying to play like a flat track bully side when they dont have the personal to do that. Now their skills arent good enough but they dont use what they do have
But Munster cant leave either Stander/O Mahony out.

lawrencesummers

After one game?

The performance against Connacht was terrible, Hard work was made of 13 players and they never got a handle on Bundee. He could have been double teamed from when he came on and kept quiet.

Also watch that game back and count how many times Munster kicked when Connacht we’re down to 13 and even 14. While Some kicking is needed but there was a period where three times in a row the ball was kicked in connachts half Instead of attacking the space.

Look at the try that was scored from a kick off as an example.

Munster are playing a gameplan, which is fine for a while but being unable to adapt to what’s in front of them is the biggest problem, along with not taking Murray off sooner and still expecting JJ to make the big plays in vital moments, which has never and will never happen now it’s safe to say.

Murray is very close to losing the Irish 9 jersey, only for Cooney’s level dipping since rugby came back I would say Murray had lost it, but marmion is doing very well. Which is a pity because Casey needs a decent go and Murray missing for a while could be the best thing to happen if JVG gave Casey and Healy a decent chance.

Brief_Lives

Do we set up a new thread for the next season, or does this continue... I like the Larkham Asylum title, to be honest..

I am confident about the new season.... We have a rolls royce of a player in DeAllende....
We definitely need a bit of luck, that is one thing we have not had in the last 7/8 years....
Killer, Cronin, Marshall is a great front row..
Snyman, Beirne/Kleyn is definitely a second row to threaten with...
Jacko, Hodnett, Stander.... that will complete a very good pack...

The Lost Sheep

Brief_Lives wrote: »

Do we set up a new thread for the next season, or does this continue... I like the Larkham Asylum title, to be honest..

I am confident about the new season.... We have a rolls royce of a player in DeAllende....
We definitely need a bit of luck, that is one thing we have not had in the last 7/8 years....
Killer, Cronin, Marshall is a great front row..
Snyman, Beirne/Kleyne is definitely a second row to threaten with...
Jacko, Hodnett, Stander.... that will complete a very good pack...

thread continues. None of the provincial threads are season based...
Killer and Cronin are loose heads. So who else do you pick in front row?
We dont know when Snyman will be back and then we need Ahern to be getting game time.

Brief_Lives

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

thread continues. None of the provincial threads are season based...
Killer and Cronin are loose heads. So who else do you pick in front row?
We dont know when Snyman will be back and then we need Ahern to be getting game time.

We definitely need a baby eating tighthead..... we are goosed there..
Snyman is what, 8 months away maybe, but he should be back for the semi final part of the season...
I will admit to not knowing much about Aherne... Whats the story with him?
Last thing we need is another Madigan result.

The Lost Sheep

Brief_Lives wrote: »

We definitely need a baby eating tighthead..... we are goosed there..
Snyman is what, 8 months away maybe, but he should be back for the semi final part of the season...
I will admit to not knowing much about Aherne... Whats the story with him?
Last thing we need is another Madigan result.

Ahearn was excellent with irish 20s. Should be getting pro14 game time this season now he's out of age grade rugby.
John Madigans biggest issue in Munster was staying fit. He went to France after finishing with Munster and has 50+ appearances in his 3 years there.