Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Former Former Former

Thomasirl123 wrote: »

Christ the management have a lot to answer for when DDA is called a pup and both DDA and farrell are described as boshers!

??

To be sold a pup means to pay more for something than it is worth.

thomond2006

Former Former Former wrote: »

I really hope you're right and obviously you know a lot more about it than me.

What I meant about the Ireland team was someone establishing themselves in the first choice XV: unless I'm missing someone obvious that was POM who came through in 2012?

Conor Murray is the biggest name. Dave Kilcoyne has 43 caps and just started against a top 6N opponent. Earls was in and out of selection in his early seasons before establishing himself, when fit.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Conor Murray is the biggest name. Dave Kilcoyne has 43 caps and just started against a top 6N opponent.

Murray made his debut in 2011 and killer has never been able to oust healy as first choice LH.

The last consistent starter for Ireland was POM in 2012

Former Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

Conor Murray is the biggest name. Dave Kilcoyne has 43 caps and just started against a top 6N opponent.

Conor Murray came into the XV before POM...

I'm not giving you Kilcoyne, per the rules that I'm making up as I go.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

Murray made his debut in 2011 and killer has never been able to oust healy as first choice LH.

The last consistent starter for Ireland was POM in 2012

Kilcoyne just started a 6N game against England ahead of Healy.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Kilcoyne just started a 6N game against England ahead of Healy.

Yeah of course, healy is in the twilight of his career.

The fact kilcoyne started against England doesn't in any way negate the point being made, and I think you know that

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yeah of course, healy is in the twilight of his career.

The fact kilcoyne started against England doesn't in any way negate the point being made, and I think you know that

Sure, but 43 caps is a lot.

I don't it's fair that the only metric of a successful development/career is being a longtime first choice XV player. There's only so many of those spots to begin with.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Kilcoyne just started a 6N game against England ahead of Healy.

Yeah but nobody is really gonna call him an Irish starter just as nobody would call Conan or Aki the starter except in the strictest literal sense which I doubt FFF is alluding to.

They're not established in the team and are as likely to be out of it in the next selection.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

......
I don't it's fair that the only metric of a successful development is being a longtime first choice XV player.......

??

I'd suggest exactly that is a sign of successful development....

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

??

I'd suggest exactly that is a sign of successful development....

So what exactly are we trying to argue here?
Not every player can become a frontline international.

There's loads of players at the provinces who never broke into the Ireland setup for a sustained period but have been hugely valuable at provincial level.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

So what exactly are we trying to argue here?
Not every player can become a frontline international.

Not sure if you're serious here....

We're arguing that there are issues with munsters development pathways due to the fact that the last consistent Irish starter to come through the system has been POM who debuted 9 years ago.

Buer

Being a regular Irish starter isn't really a useful metric. Kilcoyne had McGrath and Healy ahead of him for a large part of the last decade. He's a test level player though and capable of playing in the 6N without weakening the side. That's grand in terms of the development of a player, for me.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

Not sure if you're serious here....

We're arguing that there are issues with munsters development pathways due to the fact that the last consistent Irish starter to come through the system has been POM who debuted 9 years ago.

Why is "consistent Irish starter" the metric for this?

Is Sean Cronin's career not an example of good player development then? Dave Kearney? They're two players who never started consistently for Ireland but were massively valuable at Leinster.

Let's say Johnny Holland didn't blow out his hamstring in some Munster A game. He might have been a starter for Munster for a number of years and collected some Irish caps. Would he started ahead of Sexton? No.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Being a regular Irish starter isn't really a useful metric. Kilcoyne had McGrath and Healy ahead of him for a large part of the last decade. He's a test level player though and capable of playing in the 6N without weakening the side. That's grand in terms of the development of a player, for me.

Yeah but even if that’s the metric the point still stands, clearly. Way too much focus on semantics.

sioda

Former Former Former wrote: »

Also, we got sold a pup with DDA. Yesterday was crying out for someone big and physical to drag Munster back into it and he was a non-entity.

Your talking through your hat. DDA was everywhere yesterday lots of ruck work as well. Sold a pup when he's in the list of the best players of the season jog on

thomond2006

Whatever the issue is, DDA is not having the impact you want from a player of his profile. It's not from a lack of effort, but are the coaches using him properly?

BoardsMember

thomond2006 wrote: »

Why is "consistent Irish starter" the metric for this?

Is Sean Cronin's career not an example of good player development then? Dave Kearney? They're two players who never started consistently for Ireland but were massively valuable at Leinster.

Let's say Johnny Holland didn't blow out his hamstring in some Munster A game. He might have been a starter for Munster for a number of years and collected some Irish caps. Would he started ahead of Sexton? No.

Zebo?

(runs for the hills)

thomond2006

BoardsMember wrote: »

Zebo?

(runs for the hills)

I'm not sure how I forgot him. He started plenty games for Ireland.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Why is "consistent Irish starter" the metric for this?

Is Sean Cronin's career not an example of good player development then? Dave Kearney? They're two players who never started consistently for Ireland but were massively valuable at Leinster.

Let's say Johnny Holland didn't blow out his hamstring in some Munster A game. He might have been a starter for Munster for a number of years and collected some Irish caps. Would he started ahead of Sexton? No.

I would have thought striving to be the best would be the aim of most professional sports people..... Maybe the metric of just being "good enough" is part of the reason munster are trophyless for ten years?

Hugo Keenan is now a consistent Irish starter at 15. Came out of nowhere really. Everyone knew Rob kearney days were numbered but was there any obvious munster developed replacement?
Daly made his debut last year, but before that the only munster back three player to even debut since Zebo in 2012 was Darren Sweetnam who had 3 caps since 2017.
Is that really good enough for the supposed second biggest club in Ireland?

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

I would have thought striving to be the best would be the aim of most professional sports people..... Maybe the metric of just being "good enough" is part of the reason munster are trophyless for ten years?

Hugo Keenan is now a consistent Irish starter at 15. Came out of nowhere really. Everyone knew Rob kearney days were numbered but was there any obvious munster developed replacement?
Daly made his debut last year, but before that the only munster back three player to even debut since Zebo in 2012 was Darren Sweetnam who had 3 caps since 2017.
Is that really good enough for the supposed second biggest club in Ireland?

Go tell Sean Cronin and Dave Kearney they're worthless so. They must not have been striving to be the best.

The likes of Darren Sweetnam were blocked by another Munster player in Earls. It's a moot point. This is why I'm trying to point out this metric is dumb.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Go tell Sean Cronin and Dave Kearney they're worthless so. They must not have been striving to be the best.

Ah here, I thought you could debate without the hyperbole and pearl clutching

Obviously not.....

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ah here, I thought you could debate without the hyperbole and pearl clutching

Obviously not.....

So what is it exactly you're trying to argue with "consistent Irish starter" then?

Sweetnam was involved in Ireland camp at a time when two of his Munster teammates in Zebo and Earls would have been ahead of him. And you're trying to make this Munster's fault?

davo2001

thomond2006 wrote: »

The conveyor belt at Munster right now is the strongest it's been. We're just a year or so away from it having an impact I think.

This has literally been said for nearly 10 years now 🙄

thomond2006

davo2001 wrote: »

This has literally been said for nearly 10 years now ��

Except it hasn't.

Munster haven't had a crop of youngsters like the current group for a long time. I was looking at an academy intake from 5/6 years ago and only 2 or 3 of 11 ended up getting a Munster senior contract.

BoardsMember

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm not sure how I forgot him. He started plenty games for Ireland.

Donnacha Ryan is another fantastic player Munster produced in the last 10-15 years.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

So what is it exactly you're trying to argue with "consistent Irish starter" then?

Sweetnam was involved in Ireland camp at a time when two of his Munster teammates in Zebo and Earls would have been ahead of him. And you're trying to make this Munster's fault?

Surely Sweetnam is an example of a player who definitely wasn't good enough and is now leaving because of it despite Munster not exactly having great depth on the wing

thomond2006

BoardsMember wrote: »

Donnacha Ryan is another fantastic player Munster produced in the last 10-15 years.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Surely Sweetnam is an example of a player who definitely wasn't good enough and is now leaving because of it despite Munster not exactly having great depth on the wing

He got a few injuries at the wrong time and never pushed on. He's been replaced from within.

FrannoFan

Do munster academy train with seniors?
I can't decide if the talent isn't good enough to put in or can gran is reluctant to put them in.
For me hodnett looked as good as penny at underage. Injury not withstanding he still has played a lot less.

So is hodnett not as good as I thought or is van gran reluctant to put him in over a cloete or tod for short term gain of a pro14 win over a dragons for example?

thomond2006

FrannoFan wrote: »

Do munster academy train with seniors?
I can't decide if the talent isn't good enough to put in or can gran is reluctant to put them in.
For me hodnett looked as good as penny at underage. Injury not withstanding he still has played a lot less.

So is hodnett not as good as I thought or is van gran reluctant to put him in over a cloete or tod for short term gain of a pro14 win over a dragons for example?

Hodnett tore his Achilles in training and had started the previous two Pro14 games, one of them was against....the Dragons! https://www.munsterrugby.ie/academy-player?PlayGuid=JH753401

BoardsMember

Think it was Darcy that remarked that Coombes and CJ should have been the other way round at 6 and 8. Hard to argue with that. Maybe an insight into how limited JVG is, how one dimensional his view on how to play the game is. Munster had so little decent ball, to be fair, but when they did start to up the ante and put pressure on Leinster, they looked rudderless. Defending for 30 mins with 10% possession doesn't help, but I think there is such limited ambition to play a game that might stress the Leinster defense.