Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Former Former Former

My point has been misconstrued here. I'll try to clarify.

Munster have produced LOTS of really good home grown players in the last decade and they've been a key part of Munster's teams in that period.

However, in that same period, Munster have not won a single trophy and have consistently come up short at the business end of Europe.

In my opinion, you cannot expect to compete with the Leinsters, Saracenses, Toulons of the world unless you have the players to match. The nature of the provincial model obviously means you can't buy a squad so it has to be driven by indigenous development and Munster have not been able to find the players of the required calibre. That's shown by the fact that they have been so underrepresented in the national XV of late.

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm not having a go at anyone, I'm not running down Kilcoyne or Zebo or anyone else, but the fact remains that very few homegrown players have really kicked on to true international class since 2011. Splitting hairs over whether Zebo was ever really first choice just highlights how few others there have been.

If the objective is to go back to winning Europe or even ProXX, then look to the makeup of those winning teams eg from 2008. That's where we have to be and we're nowhere close, but I see people saying that JVG has all the talent he needs, he just can't use it properly - that's wide of the mark IMO.

I hope the likes of Ahern, Coombes, Casey, whoever else make the grade. Ireland need it but Munster need it even more.

I'm sorry if I've annoyed anyone.

thomond2006

The conveyor belt was not what we would have liked it to be and a few players that might have made the grade as provincial starters (at least) got injured. Munster had to look at castoffs from Ulster and Leinster to fill out their squad.

I'm only frustrated at the suggestion that players who hit a ceiling of not becoming a consistent Irish starter are suddenly to be discounted when it comes to discussing academy production.

Buer

Joey Carbery, Tadhg Beirne and Andrew Conway?

I can see guys like Salanoa or Loughman breaking through too.

FrannoFan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Hodnett tore his Achilles in training and had started the previous two Pro14 games, one of them was against....the Dragons! https://www.munsterrugby.ie/academy-player?PlayGuid=JH753401

I know, that's why I said injury not withstanding. Penny 21 has 25 appearances for Leinster. Hodnett 22 has 5 for munster.
Both looked equally good at 20's.
So is it a culture of picking established players or was hodnett just not as good as penny?

Trying to figure out if it's a talent or opportunity issue in munster. Just using those two as an example.

thomond2006

FrannoFan wrote: »

I know, that's why I said injury not withstanding. Penny 21 has 25 appearances for Leinster. Hodnett 22 has 5 for munster.
Both looked equally good at 20's.
So is it a culture of picking established players or was hodnett just not as good as penny?

Trying to figure out if it's a talent or opportunity issue in munster. Just using those two as an example.

Regardless of his appearances to that point, the fact that Hodnett had started two games over the international window suggested he was going to see a lot of minutes for the rest of the season. He's just been promoted early to the seniors on a two year deal despite the injury so Munster certainly rate him.

awec

I was going to make a post with my thoughts on JVG but I thought I'd save myself the time and just re-post the ones I made previously.

Nothing has changed. He is out of his depth and Munster will win nothing with him in charge.

awec wrote: »

Time is running out making excuses for Van Graan. Firstly it was he needed to have a full season with the team, then it was that his assistants weren't really experienced enough or good enough, and now it's his assistants are new so need time to bed in. This talk of Munster getting used to a new way of playing, well I can't pretend to watch Munster every week but if there's a new way of playing I can't see it, it just looks like the same old limited bosh nonsense that has plagued Munster rugby for years.

Eventually it's time to call a spade a spade and recognise that the guy is a spoof, and there is a reason that Rassie Erasmus was happy for him to fly in the opposite direction when he took the springbok job.

Ulster went through the same nonsense with Les Kiss, it was plainly obvious he wasn't cutting the mustard long before he was eventually given the boot, but there were always those making excuses for how poor the team was.

awec wrote: »

With all due respect, I think there's too many excuses being made for Van Graan. Ulster went through the same bollocks with Kiss, and I remember having this same conversation at the end of last season.

If you think he's going to turn it around next season you are deluded. He's a lame duck who is out of his depth.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

My point has been misconstrued here. I'll try to clarify.

Munster have produced LOTS of really good home grown players in the last decade and they've been a key part of Munster's teams in that period.

However, in that same period, Munster have not won a single trophy and have consistently come up short at the business end of Europe.

In my opinion, you cannot expect to compete with the Leinsters, Saracenses, Toulons of the world unless you have the players to match. The nature of the provincial model obviously means you can't buy a squad so it has to be driven by indigenous development and Munster have not been able to find the players of the required calibre. That's shown by the fact that they have been so underrepresented in the national XV of late.

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm not having a go at anyone, I'm not running down Kilcoyne or Zebo or anyone else, but the fact remains that very few homegrown players have really kicked on to true international class since 2011. Splitting hairs over whether Zebo was ever really first choice just highlights how few others there have been.

If the objective is to go back to winning Europe or even ProXX, then look to the makeup of those winning teams eg from 2008. That's where we have to be and we're nowhere close, but I see people saying that JVG has all the talent he needs, he just can't use it properly - that's wide of the mark IMO.

I hope the likes of Ahern, Coombes, Casey, whoever else make the grade. Ireland need it but Munster need it even more.

I'm sorry if I've annoyed anyone.

I think there is an argument to be made that Munster (or Ulster or Connacht) cannot produce a team good enough to do these things, and that Munster's great team in the 00s was a complete fluke brought about by the then high standard of the AIL.

We've been saying this "need to produce more players" thing for a long, long time now. At some point it's going to have to be recognised as an unattainable goal and a failed strategy.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm only frustrated at the suggestion that players who hit a ceiling of not becoming a consistent Irish starter are suddenly to be discounted when it comes to discussing academy production.

That's not at all what was said and of you picked it up that way you have misconstrued the point.

The point is we're not discounting all the players who have become provincial regulars but asking if the lack of development to the Irish squad of consistent players is a good enough . You seem to think it is, others wouldn't.

Why have munster had to import two oversea players into their back three in the last two years? Why import three second row players over the last four years?

Its been long said in here the the Pro14 exists as a means to develop test level players... That's why the IRFU are so keen to move promising players around from province to province. Blooded in the pro14, challenged at European level.

Its a pity that success of the 2000s team didn't create a period of dominance for munster through the 2010s..... When those players left / retired what came behind wasn't of the same level unfortunately for munster

awec

Also, controversial opinion alert, but I think Munster got to the final thanks to not being in Leinster's pool.

I would fancy Ulster's chances of beating you as I think McFarland would also run rings around JVG tactically.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

Also, controversial opinion alert, but I think Munster got to the final thanks to not being in Leinster's pool.

I would fancy Ulster's chances of beating you as I think McFarland would also run rings around JVG tactically.

Hopefully we'll see that match up next season

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Also, controversial opinion alert, but I think Munster got to the final thanks to not being in Leinster's pool.

I would fancy Ulster's chances of beating you as I think McFarland would also run rings around JVG tactically.

That's fighting talk!

Round 2 of the Rainbow Cup. Start the buildup thread now.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

That's not at all what was said and of you picked it up that way you have misconstrued the point.

The point is we're not discounting all the players who have become provincial regulars but asking if the lack of development to the Irish squad of consistent players is a good enough . You seem to think it is, others wouldn't.

Why have munster had to import two oversea players into their back three in the last two years? Why import three second row players over the last four years?

Its been long said in here the the Pro14 exists as a means to develop test level players... That's why the IRFU are so keen to move promising players around from province to province. Blooded in the pro14, challenged at European level.

Its a pity that success of the 2000s team didn't create a period of dominance for munster through the 2010s..... When those players left / retired what came behind wasn't of the same level unfortunately for munster

I never said it was good enough, I was trying to point out that it hasn't been none/close to none.

And I still don't know what metric we are using. You've gone from "consistent Irish starter" to "lack of development to the Irish squad of consistent players". Those are two different discussions. Anyway, let's park that.

If you look at the squad for next year, the older names that are/appear to be leaving are being replaced from within. Munster aren't having to go shopping for a Jordan Coghlan, Sean Dougall, Adam D'Arcy or Colm O'Shea to fill up the squad. Signs are good.

The problem is we have hit a brick wall of Leinster in the league for four straight seasons and yesterday was by far the worst showing against Leinster in that time. The coaches need to look in the mirror.

theVersatile

awec wrote: »

Also, controversial opinion alert, but I think Munster got to the final thanks to not being in Leinster's pool.

I would fancy Ulster's chances of beating you as I think McFarland would also run rings around JVG tactically.

Remind me who Ulster are playing in the Champions Cup knockouts Awec? :P

awec

awec wrote: »

We've been saying this "need to produce more players" thing for a long, long time now. At some point it's going to have to be recognised as an unattainable goal and a failed strategy.

That has happened already. I mentioned in the match thread, 8 of the starting XV for Munster came from somewhere else/did not come through the Munster age grade or academy system.

The Inbetween is mine

Kenya Tasty Peacock wrote: »

That has happened already. I mentioned in the match thread, 8 of the starting XV for Munster came from somewhere else/did not come through the Munster age grade or academy system.

The reality is, we can't...we don't have the population base, the all around kids interest and we'll always need to bring in outside players to fill the gaps in quality...it's that simple.

kuang1

What's the status on JVG's contract?

It was renewed I think right? Can't remember the details.

Squidgy Black

kuang1 wrote: »

What's the status on JVG's contract?

It was renewed I think right? Can't remember the details.

Yeah has another season, June 2022

Former Former Former

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

The reality is, we can't...we don't have the population base, the all around kids interest and we'll always need to bring in outside players to fill the gaps in quality...it's that simple.

Agreed. And that's the problem. That's the only model open to us but it'll never close the gap on the top sides.

cantwbr1

Former Former Former wrote: »

Agreed. And that's the problem. That's the only model open to us but it'll never close the gap on the top sides.

I think that NIQ recruitment has been relatively average over the last 10 years or so. Stander was probably the last very good signing by Munster. No one else could really be said to have made a significant contribution/impoverishment to the squad. Mathewson could probably have been one but there were other conflicts there.

AbusesToilets

I get the impression that the lack of high coaching available in Munster, relative to Leinster anyway, has got to be a hindrance to inter provincial signing. Up and coming Leinster academy lads have to feel they are going to progress more in the Leinster system, even with less gametime, than in Munster currently.

Dubinusa

Munster do have good depth. Some very solid reserves in the squad. The alarming thing for me is the complete lack of strategy! There are glimpses of a wider backline driven team, but in crucial games, it's usually headless rugby.
I don't think Munster really give the younger lads a run. There's some lads in the squad that I've never seen play.
At some point, the coaching team has got too inject these lads. "A" matches are not really a good run out. Munster are so predictable and quite easy to defend and read. Conway and Earls rarely see good ball! It's amazing, they are primarily high ball chasers.
It's probably time to get one of Salanoa or Knox into the matchday 23. On a regular basis. It's also time for Ahern to play every available opportunity. These guys are the future and should be the top priority during the Rainbow cup.

yerrahbah

https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2021/03/29/jj-hanrahan-move-confirmed/

JJ confirmed.

Sounds like there wasn't a contract there for him

Faugheen

yerrahbah wrote: »

https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2021/03/29/jj-hanrahan-move-confirmed/

JJ confirmed.

Sounds like there wasn't a contract there for him

Think this is a good move for all concerned.

Munster have to look at utilising Healy and Crowley more. Healy has shown he has enough to play first reserve in the Pro14 while this will also give Crowley more exposure.

Probably not a million miles different from when Madigan left Leinster. It was definitely the best move for Leinster (if it didn't immediately work out for Madigan himself), but best of luck to JJ, what an opportunity for him.

theVersatile

Sweetnam to La Rochelle also confirmed confirmed

https://twitter.com/staderochelais/status/1376470210341900291?s=19

yerrahbah

theVersatile wrote: »

Sweetnam to La Rochelle also confirmed confirmed

https://twitter.com/staderochelais/status/1376470210341900291?s=19

Another player whos contract is up this summer...

CONSI

yerrahbah wrote: »

Another player whos contract is up this summer...

surely we need to look at keeping some of these guys especially after letting Wooton go to Connacht

thomond2006

CONSI wrote: »

surely we need to look at keeping some of these guys especially after letting Wooton go to Connacht

No, Sweetnam is the kind of player that Munster need to move on. Nothing against him, but he's fallen behind younger players and would command a decent salary.

While Wootton's move to Connacht worked out for him, was it really a loss to Munster? I don't think so.

aloooof

CONSI wrote: »

surely we need to look at keeping some of these guys especially after letting Wooton go to Connacht

Daly and Nash seem to have leapfrogged Sweetnam this season, and Liam Coombes has put in some good perfomances too, he seems to have fallen down the pecking order a bit.

I suspect this is start of the realities of Covid beginning to bite tho.

BoardsMember

I missed the post game interview with POM. Lots of comment about what he said, didn't say, stopped short of saying, alluded to. Anyone got a link to it?