Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Scarlets had two seasons where they looked like a top European side (destroying Leinster and Munster on consecutive weekends in Dublin was outstanding) and then they retreated to the pack, just like Ospreys and Glasgow before them.

Munster have been a much more consistent outfit over the last 10 or so seasons.

Who you believe has had a better 10 years depends on your perspective on the currency of trophies.

depends on what your idea of "success" is

it could be the Leicester / Connacht mould of having won silverware

or it could be the Arsenal / Munster mould of not wining anything, but being happy with European qualification / high table finishes

i wonder would John Muldoon swap his pro12 medal for a decade of semi final and final losses? .........

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

depends on what your idea of "success" is

it could be the Leicester / Connacht mould of having won silverware

or it could be the Arsenal / Munster mould of not wining anything, but being happy with European qualification / high table finishes

i wonder would John Muldoon swap his pro12 medal for a decade of semi final and final losses? .........

Munster have been the Mayo of Irish rugby for years. They've been consistently relevant in the conversation of contenders, but simply can't break the glass ceiling above them in the likes of Leinster and the book cooking Saracens. It's incredibly frustrating that they have failed to turn up in key knockout games, but at least following them isn't a complete waste of time.

Of course, I'd take a trophy over none all things being equal, but it could be worse: No trophies and no relevance. If you're a fan of Glasgow for example, yes you have the Pro14 title in the bank from 2015, but this season must have been a miserable experience.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster have been the Mayo of Irish rugby for years. They've been consistently relevant in the conversation of contenders, but simply can't break the glass ceiling above them. It's incredibly frustrating that they have failed to turn up in key knockout games, but at least following them isn't a complete waste of time.

Of course, I'd take a trophy over none all things being equal, but the worst thing would be to have no trophies and no relevance. If you're a fan of Glasgow for example, this Pro14 season must have been a miserable experience.

100% agreed.

the point that was being made (not by me, but on the RTE podcast) is that how Scarlets, Connacht and Glasgow were able to get themselves together enough to win a Pro12. Connacht as we know spent 2 years preparing and changed their whole rugby culture and identity on the way to the 2016 victory.

the fact that scarlets and glasgow, and to a degree Connacht, fell away after their victories is much down to their successful coaches leaving for better positions and their players being poached to richer clubs.... including Munster.

I suppose the question is, whats munsters rugby identity, and what do they need to do to win a trophy?
with Axel, Rassie and JVG were they just trying the same thing over and over with little reward??
at least Penny made an attempt to change the identity but perhaps he was the wrong man at the right time.

personally id give Larkham the reins for 2 season from right now. it feels to me as though hes 'hand braked' by the way JVG has the team going

thomond2006

I don't know, sometimes identity is a vague trope pundits throw out. Ultimately, your identity is great when you're winning and not great when you're losing.

No matter what identity you have, it's not going to turn John Ryan and Stephen Archer into Andrew Porter and Tadhg Furlong.

sebdavis

thomond2006 wrote: »

Scarlets had two seasons where they looked like a top European side (destroying Leinster and Munster on consecutive weekends in Dublin was outstanding) and then they retreated to the pack, just like Ospreys and Glasgow before them.

Munster have been a much more consistent outfit over the last 10 or so seasons.

Who you believe has had a better 10 years depends on your perspective on the currency of trophies.

Players and clubs measure success in medals & trophies.
I think BOD put it well on a podcast when he was asked would he give up a medal for a win v New Zealand, he said he wanted the medal

I doubt Sander wants to return home after a great career and say he was consistent with Munster for 10 years, he would would prefer to head back with some club medals.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't know, sometimes identity is a vague trope pundits throw out. Ultimately, your identity is great when you're winning and not great when you're losing.

No matter what identity you have, it's not going to turn John Ryan and Stephen Archer into Andrew Porter and Tadhg Furlong.

maybe not, but maybe on a good day it can make Ronan Loughney and Finlay Bealham better than Jack McGrath and mike Ross, or Marmion and McGintey better than Sexton and Reddan

Identity, or at least how i perceive it, is incredibly important when it comes to rugby and how a rugby team plays. Its the ethos of the team. Leinster have a "leinster way" of playing which is trickled down right through to how club youths and minis are thought.

Cheika changed leinster rugby identity... significantly so.
Lam changed Connachts rugby identify, significantly so.

identity isnt a trope.... its a foundation upon which you build your team

maybe munsters issue with the glass ceiling is they dont actually know what their identity is?

phog

Robbie Henshaw went to Leinster

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

maybe munsters issue with the glass ceiling is they dont actually know what their identity is?

Munster don't have a starting front five that can compete at the highest level. I think that's the biggest issue. Snyman's injury was a catastrophe to that effect.
Leinster not only have a great starting front five, but they have depth players who can come on and not weaken the side.

I'm not dismissing the identity thing, but you won't win games if your front five (or pack in general) get dominated like Munster's on Saturday.

Dubinusa

Munster have the bones of a good side. The youth is there and the foundations are too. I see the problem as being the way they are being coached.
There are so many top quality players in the environment and a host of high quality young players. JVG seems to have no clear strategy or style of play to impose. Munster aren't going to batter a win against the top sides, so other avenues are required. The issue is the other avenues are a mystery to the coaching staff.
How can a side featuring Earls, Murray and Conway be unable to pressure Leinster defense? It's absurd that they continually rely on box kick after box kick.
They could have tried to stretch the Leinster defense by bringing in Earls or Conway more or using Farrell or Haley as a 1st receiver.
The problem is the strategy, imo. The players are fine and should be capable of running Leinster more. It was a complete no show effort strategy wise and Leinster's inability to score in the 1st half was what kept the scoreline close.
Leinster were not clinical or great by any stretch and a little variation to Munster's strategy could have made some difference. A side with so many top quality players unable to create anything is worrying.

The Inbetween is mine

As a Kerryman, I am deeply offended by the Mayo reference.......I'm not waiting 50 years for a trophy!

molloyjh

I'd probably lean more towards Thomonds way of thinking on this. Ultimately the question is whether you'd rather your team be a flash in the pan that wins silverware but then revert to maddeningly inconsistent/bang average thereafter or you'd rather have consistent seasons where the majority is positive and enjoyable but the trophy never comes?

Does the few days of frustration in end of season KO games hurt as much as a whole season of frustration? Is it better to get to KOs rarely and win a trophy or get to KOs consistently and not? Because not getting to KOs probably involved a fair bit of heartache during the regular season. See Connacht this season for example. Do you want to be harping back to years gone by or hoping what might be next season?

thomond2006

Dubinusa wrote: »

Munster have the bones of a good side. The youth is there and the foundations are too. I see the problem as being the way they are being coached.
There are so many top quality players in the environment and a host of high quality young players. JVG seems to have no clear strategy or style of play to impose. Munster aren't going to batter a win against the top sides, so other avenues are required. The issue is the other avenues are a mystery to the coaching staff.
How can a side featuring Earls, Murray and Conway be unable to pressure Leinster defense? It's absurd that they continually rely on box kick after box kick.
They could have tried to stretch the Leinster defense by bringing in Earls or Conway more or using Farrell or Haley as a 1st receiver.
The problem is the strategy, imo. The players are fine and should be capable of running Leinster more. It was a complete no show effort strategy wise and Leinster's inability to score in the 1st half was what kept the scoreline close.
Leinster were not clinical or great by any stretch and a little variation to Munster's strategy could have made some difference. A side with so many top quality players unable to create anything is worrying.

You can't stretch a defence if you get dominated up front. There's a reason why players like Farrell and Earls were swarmed on Saturday when they touched the ball.

Lost Ormond

Dubinusa wrote: »

Munster have the bones of a good side. The youth is there and the foundations are too. I see the problem as being the way they are being coached.
There are so many top quality players in the environment and a host of high quality young players. JVG seems to have no clear strategy or style of play to impose. Munster aren't going to batter a win against the top sides, so other avenues are required. The issue is the other avenues are a mystery to the coaching staff.
How can a side featuring Earls, Murray and Conway be unable to pressure Leinster defense? It's absurd that they continually rely on box kick after box kick.
They could have tried to stretch the Leinster defense by bringing in Earls or Conway more or using Farrell or Haley as a 1st receiver.
The problem is the strategy, imo. The players are fine and should be capable of running Leinster more. It was a complete no show effort strategy wise and Leinster's inability to score in the 1st half was what kept the scoreline close.
Leinster were not clinical or great by any stretch and a little variation to Munster's strategy could have made some difference. A side with so many top quality players unable to create anything is worrying.

Yes they do but the problems are more than just how theyre being coached.
A side featuring Earls, Murray and Conway cant pressure Leinsters defence because theyre playing behind a beaten pack

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

..... Do you want to be harping back to years gone by or hoping what might be next season?

Haven't munster done both for the last decade??

They're not a connacht or scarlets or Glasgow where success leads to then being quarried out. I firmly believe that should munster will a Pro14, hell even a rainbow cup, that will be a springboard to better things and possibly a era of more consistent rivalry with leinster at the top table of Europe.

JVG is not the guy to get them there though

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster don't have a starting front five that can compete at the highest level. I think that's the biggest issue. Snyman's injury was a catastrophe to that effect.
Leinster not only have a great starting front five, but they have depth players who can come on and not weaken the side.

I'm not dismissing the identity thing, but you won't win games if your front five (or pack in general) get dominated like Munster's on Saturday.

This is it. Kilcoyne and Beirne are the only two international level front 5 forwards in the Munster squad (excluding Synman because he's been absent so far). That just is not enough to compete at the highest level.

Caranica

sydthebeat wrote: »

JVG is not the guy to get them there though

Rob Penney is at a loose end now

theVersatile

I wonder how quickly the JVG slander would u-turn if Munster beat Toulouse at the weekend

sydthebeat

theVersatile wrote: »

I wonder how quickly the JVG slander would u-turn if Munster beat Toulouse at the weekend

:rolleyes:

I hope Munster beat Toulouse this weekend, but i fear it will be another valiant defeat

thomond2006

We all know who Munster need to come back to fix the front five.

We know.

theVersatile

thomond2006 wrote: »

We all know who Munster need to come back to fix the front five.

We know.

Zebo? The way some of the Dubs be going on about him you'd think he had the size for it.

jacothelad

sydthebeat wrote: »

I said echoed on this forum, not echoed in this thread.

The point about Jenkins being signed, about if JVG is good enough, where is the progress, the lack of academy development, the reliance on imported players, lack of game time given to younger players, pathways for younger players in the absence of a comparable schools system etc etc have all been discussed in various threads across this forum.

Its not unusual that the main source of push back against these arguments have been this forum though.

I thought a very pertinent point was the fact that scarlets Glasgow and connacht could all organise themselves to win a Pro14 in the last ten years yet munster couldn't..... Despite what we're consistently being told that's its only leinster that's ahead of them and that they're a top four European team

How many times have Glasgow, Scarlets or Connacht reached a Champions' Cup quarter or semi compared to Munster in the last 10 years? Munster are generally a step ahead of them.....

Podge_irl

I sometimes feel like discussions around the identity of Munster not being what it was, or harking back to earlier times is just the other side of the coin from the bizarre refusal to acknowledge that their success in the early 2000s was largely the result of a phenomenal pack and excellent controlling halfbacks as opposed to "identity" and "passion".

Jump_In_Jack

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'd say Wren is almost certainly going to be let go, JIJ. Munster have 46 senior players signed up (pending Osborne replacing McCarthy), I wouldn't expect more.

Was also wondering if Healy would be another Noel Reid type 10/12, he’s tall enough and could fill out a bit more and be a good option there perhaps.
From the snippets I’ve seen of Crowley he looks more threatening in open play, and more of a playmaker, good kicks and physically strong for his size and age.
Healy has a huge kick, and went through a phase of converting a lot of goal kicks but recently fell off a bit in that regard.
No reason why the 12 couldn’t be the place kicker either really, or even for the further out kicks.
Haven’t seen enough of Flannery so can’t comment on his potential, but by what I’ve gathered he is a clever tidy player that would make a good playmaker from fullback, probably more in the mold of Carbery maybe?

Yeah_Right

sebdavis wrote: »

Players and clubs measure success in medals & trophies.
I think BOD put it well on a podcast when he was asked would he give up a medal for a win v New Zealand, he said he wanted the medal

I don't believe him. Would he give up his Grand Slam, one of his 6 Nations (he won 2?) or a Heineken Cup medal to have beaten NZ in 2013 in Dublin or 2012 in ChCh? Probably not. Would he give up a Triple Crown or a Pro 12 title or a Challenge Cup for it? Hell yes he would.

sydthebeat

jacothelad wrote: »

How many times have Glasgow, Scarlets or Connacht reached a Champions' Cup quarter or semi compared to Munster in the last 10 years? Munster are generally a step ahead of them.....

which is EXACTLY the point.....

munster ARE a better team, consistently so.... yet that hasnt converted into success.... even at Pro14 level.

That is a problem that doesnt look like its going to be fixed any time soon

sydthebeat

Podge_irl wrote: »

I sometimes feel like discussions around the identity of Munster not being what it was, or harking back to earlier times is just the other side of the coin from the bizarre refusal to acknowledge that their success in the early 2000s was largely the result of a phenomenal pack and excellent controlling halfbacks as opposed to "identity" and "passion".

rugby turned professional in 1995-1996

Munster reached their first HC final in 1999

Its exactly that "excellent pack and controlling half backs" that formed the munster rugby identity. There was literally nothing there beforehand.

so you cant say the success achieved by that team was without identity as it was created by them

every team since has been working under the shadow of that period

Dubinusa

Munster have a lot going for them! They look stocked for the coming years. Healy and Crowley will put pressure on Carberry soon enough. There's tons of quality in the squad and it's possible they could win the Euro cup this year, but I doubt it. In saying that, a good tight head prop could make a substantial difference to the team. Perhaps, Salanoa could be that guy? I don't think that Knox will, but who knows.
There's a lot of reasons to be optimistic, the return of Carberry is one, the emergence of Coombes and I think lads like Flannery will be fantastic players down the road. There should be a lot of optimism and maybe Larkham will make his mark and Munster let it fly. Either way, I reckon ROG will be back fairly soon and Munster will be a better side for it.

Podge_irl

sydthebeat wrote: »

rugby turned professional in 1995-1996

Munster reached their first HC final in 1999

Its exactly that "excellent pack and controlling half backs" that formed the munster rugby identity. There was literally nothing there beforehand.

so you cant say the success achieved by that team was without identity as it was created by them

every team since has been working under the shadow of that period

Having an international 1-10 is not an "identity". Being a forward dominant team can be, as well as focusing on that in development and recruitment. But there was a bizarre refusal to admit that the Munster 1-10 were not just passionate and committed, but also supremely talented at rugby...

The game has moved on, but the Munster pack is also nowhere near as good which is why you can't return to the game of the past.

ersatz

Buer wrote: »

The one area which is going to be really interesting next season is outhalf. With JJH gone, there's going to be a lot of expecation for the youngsters to deliver. I don't think Healy is going to be that guy either. However, Crowley might well be and I'd expect him to move past Healy by the end of 2021. If Carbery is going to be out of the picture with Ireland for stretches of the season, there'll be huge potential for development at 10. With that said, there's also a significant risk there if Carbery ships any sort of lengthy injury.

Yes, one way or another we will have young out halves getting game time in Munster next season. Losing Bleyendal and now JJ puts them in a funny position but I guess the coaches feel like Healy and Crowley are ready to step in. Hopefully Carberry can continue his post injury comeback but any setback for him could be catastrophic for munster and for Ireland too.

Former Former Former

theVersatile wrote: »

I wonder how quickly the JVG slander would u-turn if Munster beat Toulouse at the weekend

Munster will win at the weekend. There HAS to be a reaction from the players after last week, it's at home and Toulouse are missing a lot of players.

If it gets backed up the following week away to Wasps or Clermont, then we can see if it means anything.